JOHN L. SULLIVAN, THE EARLY YEARS

[SteveO]

Thank you very much HomicideHenry, what an excellent read - I appreciate the time and effort you put into this.
I would love to read more about John L's opponents, especially any extra info about those he fought on his 'Grand Tour'.
Steve

[HomicideHenry]

Look as it stands, though this is a small list of opponents, this is what Sullivan accomplished:

Six Former/Current Champions, defeated them all

-Donovan, MW Champion, and top heavyweight contender who drew Mace twice
-Goss, MW and HW champion of America, one of the foremost fighters of his time
-Coeburn, HW champion of America, who also drew Mace twice
-Mitchell, multi division champion of England, who defeated Mace
-Ryan, American HW champion, who defeated Goss
-Kilrain, title claimer, but held wins over George Godfrey the Colored HW Champion

All these men, last time I checked, were in the boxing Hall of Fame, so that's a plus

Sullivan also fought top mandatories Domick McCafferey and Patsy Cardiff, the latter who was a regional boxing champion of the Northwest. He defeated fringe contenders Dalton, Donaldson and kayoed Scannell in his debut as a boxer and he at one time was a title contender. The lone two who you can consider 'mandatories' in name only were Slade and Flood, and the latter came before he was champion.

All in all, Sullivan has faced as many HOF'ers as Joe Louis has, had more kayos total in his career than Dempsey, Marciano, Louis and Sam Langford combined; even if the opposition on the Grand Tours of America and Europe were mediocre, this is still a ridiculously high kayo percentage rate. If you are to knock Sullivan, by my conclusions, you can only do so the three years he didnt defend the title. Then again, if you are to knock Sullivan for this, let's knock Dempsey and to a lesser degree Joe Louis as well. As for opponents on the Grand Tours, the majority of them were either top regional fighters either pro or amateur. Max Baer once fought 24 times in 4 months against essentially the same caliber of opposition, and you don't hear as much criticism.

Again, I stand by my assumption and belief Sullivan's record is comparable to that of anyone else in the top ten-twenty.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't expect your belief to change, neither will mine. The information that was new to me was not his opponents.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Well, when I get started on ranking/evaluating the men he fought in his time, it will give a better idea of how to rank John L. Sullivan, but as it stands (off the top of my head) he defeated a few champions during his reign, and numerous former title challengers, as well as top contenders of his day. That is comparable to any of the all-time great champions.

Another well thought out Saad post, based on his extensive knowledge of the topic.

If you don't agree with Henry's brief analysis of Sullivans opponents, perhaps you would like to post your own detailed analysis based on your extensive knowledge of the era.

Another well though out attempt to generate an argument by you. Perhaps if you don't like my posts you should just ignore them. Really? Now we're at the point where you bounce in and decide to lecture an emoticon? Grow up.

[HomicideHenry]

Btw, considering this is in-depth, can this be made a sticky?

Maybe we can rename the thread "Fighters of The Early 20th Century and Prior", and make several profiles of the old timers on this thread, so the forum posters can have a more comprehensive view at the fighters of bygone eras.

[Brutu]

Hey HH,would you know who had drawn that picture of Jawnel lifting the trolley from the Boston newspaper?
Was it Frederick Remington whom Sullivan had mentioned in one of his memoirs who came to visit him at his training camp on Long Island to write a story for a newspaper and do some sketches.

[HomicideHenry]

Hey HH,would you know who had drawn that picture of Jawnel lifting the trolley from the Boston newspaper?
Was it Frederick Remington whom Sullivan had mentioned in one of his memoirs who came to visit him at his training camp on Long Island to write a story for a newspaper and do some sketches.

From what I can tell (from my untrained eye) the picture I posted is either a reprint or reproduction of an original sketch done for the newspapers in Boston. I believe, also, though I may be mistaken that this picture maybe in Sullivan's book REMINESCES OF A 19TH CENTURY GLADIATOR. As for the artist in question, will have to delve deeper into the sources.

http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-ima ... ivan+boxer

^^^According to this link, the image was reproduced in LOOK AND LEARN NO. 620 (1/12/73) and the artist is listed as 'unknown'.

[HomicideHenry]

A CHRONOLOGY IN PICTURES FURTHER EXPLORED

[Brutu]

I am not an art expert or collector,but it certainly looks like it may
have been done by Frederic Remington to me.
I remember I e-mailed the Remington museum a couple of years ago to ask about the newspaper stories and art that he had done of John L. Sullivan
on Long Island,that Sullivan mentioned in his 1910 Boston Globe memoirs ,but I dont think I ever recieved a reply back from the Museum,
other then acknowelgement of recieving the question.


http://www.frederic-remington.org

[Brutu]

Sullivan asking for 25 thousand dollars to star in Edison's short film.
That was an incredible amount of money in 1894.
Almost Fort Knox.
What were Sullivan's biggest paydays per fights?
How much was he raking in a year touring after his retirement from the ring?

[HomicideHenry]

I am not an art expert or collector,but it certainly looks like it may
have been done by Frederic Remington to me.
I remember I e-mailed the Remington museum a couple of years ago to ask about the newspaper stories and art that he had done of John L. Sullivan
on Long Island,that Sullivan mentioned in his 1910 Boston Globe memoirs ,but I dont think I ever recieved a reply back from the Museum,
other then acknowelgement of recieving the question.


http://www.frederic-remington.org

It very well could be Remington who did the illustrations. It wouldn't surprise me.

Sullivan asking for 25 thousand dollars to star in Edison's short film.
That was an incredible amount of money in 1894.
Almost Fort Knox.
What were Sullivan's biggest paydays per fights?
How much was he raking in a year touring after his retirement from the ring?

I know while as champion, between fights and exhibitions and theatrical engagements, Sullivan averaged $60,000 per year. After his reign, I believe he virtually matched that in theatre engagements and sparring exhibitions. I did put the figures in the first page of the thread. By 1905 it was estimated he made well over $750,000. I think by the end of his life he made well over $1,000,000 making him the first fighter to ever do so. His biggest payday would have to be Kilrain where it was $20,000 plus side bets (winner take all).

[Brutu]

who inheiritited his estate in 1918?
Im still trying to figure out who inheirted Jack Johnson's.
He was married at the time,but he didnt have any children.
Maybe it was his nephew Gus Rhodes who got it.

[HomicideHenry]

I would think Sullivan's sister did, unless it got sold to pay off any debts. I do know somewhere in Boston lives Sullivan's 3rd or 4th great grand nieces and nephews. No and then news of them pop up whenever something is done to commemorate Sullivan's memory. I imagine they would have a treasure trove of pictures, articles of clothing, etc. of the late champion such as the colors he wore against Charlie Mitchell in France, etc.

I do know in Belfast, New York where Muldoon's farm was it has been converted into the BKB HOF and some things Sullivan worked out with in prep for Kilrain are there. As for Jack Johnson, if I am not mistaken he left no estate for the man was almost penniless, hence why he's burried in the poor/pauper section of the cemetary. Only the word JOHNSON marks the stone; and as a side note, not far away from where he lies is Bob Fitzsimmons.

[HomicideHenry]

Here is what my detective work shows on living relatives of the great John L. Sullivan:

Mind you Sullivan had a sister named Annie Lennon, and she had ten children, where only eight survived from infancy to adulthood. Sullivan's nieces were Mary, Annie, Genevieve, and Katherine. His nephews were John, George, Arthur and Francis. The oldest Sullivan's living today cite Annie Lennon, Sullivan's sister, as being their great grandmother. At the moment I am getting in contact with a great-great-grand niece of Sullivan, who happens to live in my state, and am going to try and get a follow up history on the family, estate, etc. after Sullivan's death.

[Brutu]

As far as his estate,I was thinking along the lines of Photo albums,mementos from his career,belts,awards,memorobilia,gifts given to him,not so much what was in his savings account when he died.lol

BTW What is left that is tangible from"John L. Sullivan's World"
something one could visit and touch,
such as the various homes he had lived in growing up,
or that he owned,any farms?,real estate in Boston he owned.
gymnasiums he had trained in,camps he trained at.
Whats now at the sites were he fought his most famous battles,etc.
Does the Pelican Athletic Club in New Orleans still exist?Id imagine it was torn down years ago.

[Brutu]

Frankly I was surprised to read that the this Athletic Club still exists.
the New Orleans Athletic Club(current location
222 N. Rampart St. Downtown N.O, opened in 1929).
Particularly after the flooding following Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.neworleansathleticclub.com/history.html

Is that photo a plaster cast of someone arm who was famous ?

[Brutu]

aha!
just as i suspected.
scroll down this web page about a third of a way down and see whom
arm it was that a plaster casting was taken of.


http://calliopestreet.blogspot.com

[HomicideHenry]

As far as his estate,I was thinking along the lines of Photo albums,mementos from his career,belts,awards,memorobilia,gifts given to him,not so much what was in his savings account when he died.lol

BTW What is left that is tangible from"John L. Sullivan's World"
something one could visit and touch,
such as the various homes he had lived in growing up,
or that he owned,any farms?,real estate in Boston he owned.
gymnasiums he had trained in,camps he trained at.
Whats now at the sites were he fought his most famous battles,etc.
Does the Pelican Athletic Club in New Orleans still exist?Id imagine it was torn down years ago.

An interactive map, showing the life and times of Sullivan on a world view would be a very interesting, though lengthy and extensive, project. I do know the Bare Knuckle Boxing Hall of Fame in Belfast, New York is situated on the William Muldoon farm where Sullivan trained for Kilrain. As for houses, etc. I do know Sullivan bought his mother and father a house; the addresses of his childhood home and this house, along with where his sister and brother lived, etc. I do know and one day will post the addresses.

[Brutu]

The US census may have the address of the various houses
that John L.Sullivan lived at over the course of his lifetime.

[Brutu]

The historic Canoe Place Inn
at Peconic Bay ,near Southampton Long Island.
That is were John L. Sullivan stayed at in July-August 1892
when he was training to fight J.J Corbett.
However the original Inn(which dated back to 1680 and was
a stagecoach stop between Southhold and Southampton NY,
It was renovated and improved as an inn several years before Sullivan stayed there.
However in July.05.1921 it was totally destroyed by a fire.
(all except the 2 chimineys).
Sullivan had trained in a barn next to it,but im not sure if the barn still exists.
A luxury hotel was built on the very same site as the original Canoe Place Inn and there is a small museum in it,
but I dont know how much if any of the exhibits there may relate to
John L. Sullivan.

http://hamptonbayshistoricalsociety.org ... y_cpi.html

[HomicideHenry]

I have been talking in emails over the last few days with Maureen Sullivan-Lennon whose 3rd great grandmother was John L. Sullivan's sister. She informed me of a few interesting things, that in Abbeydorney, Ireland where Sullivan's mother/father/uncles came from they have erected a bronze statue of John L. Sullivan (where in fact descendants of John L. Sullivan live to this day) and some other facts and figures. She informed me she has a few uncles living on the east coast who are in their 80's. She also told me that she and her mother were the chief information suppliers to Michael T. Isenberg's book on John L. Sullivan. Maybe in time I will copy and paste the emails on to this site. She said her brother and a few others were at Belfast, New York for John L. Sullivan's induction into the Bare Knuckle Boxing Hall of Fame, and she says her brother looks an awful lot like Sullivan in his younger days, so it was fitting.

[Brutu]

I was just over looking around at Amazon.com.and just found out that a new book about John L. Sullivan is due to be published this November.5.2013.
Its title is
STRONG BOY:THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JOHN L. SULLIVAN,
AMERICA'S FIRST SPORTS HERO.
by Christopher Klein.
Lyon's Press
336 pp.

Anyone knew or know about this book?
What hasnt been written in all the previous biographies and autobiographies
that can be added to public knowledge of John L. Sullivan?

[Brutu]

If you ever visit New Orleans, you may want to
go to Royal Street,between Montegut Street and Clouet Street as that entire block was once the site of the
Olympic Athletic Club were John L. Sullivan had fought James J. Corbett in 1892.
The Building was destroyed by a fire(along with nine other buildings
in December.6. 1897.
Here is a link to several drawings of that time.

Exterior of the Olympic Club- Royal Street,New Orleans LA.

http://flickr.com/photos/infrogmation/3844160422

Interior

http://flickr.com/photos/infrogmation/3844160356

http://flickr.com/photos/infrogmation/3844160374

[Brutu]

According to an earlier posting by enrique in 2005,
there still exists(or did),
a section of the original brick wall of the Olympic Athletic club
which can be seen at 628 Clouet Street.
The wall is in between two wooden structures.

[Brutu]

I haven't been to New Orleans since 1993.
But I came across this historical presevation photograph taken in 1978
of 628 Clouet St.,
(Between Royal Street and Chartres Streets)


http://www.nutrias.org/photos/cooper/mjc40.jpg

That looks to be a brick wall to the left.
Last remaining wall of the Olympic Athletic Club
which was destroyed by fire December.6.1897.