Haye v Fury possible for this summer

[CiganoBoxer]

You were originally implying that his traveller background is what sets him apart and gives him an advantage though. It doesn't. Travellers are no different in the gym training or in the ring fighting, than people from any other background. They aren't faster, tougher, stronger because of their heritage. It's down to the individual. Plenty of traveller lads are good boxers, plenty are effing crap too!

The traveller community does provide a lot of good fighters considering the size of it, but that's to do with exposure and it being so popular amongst the community meaning a much higher percentage of lads take the sport up to begin with compared to other ethnicities.

Anyway, as I say, I like the man and will cheer him on when he fights. Just hope for his sake he don't fight Haye! Would be the wrong move.

I thing you have agreed with most of what i said to Mickey

But we differ ,you dont think that being from a long lineage of boxers /bare knuckle fighters like fury is gives any advantage toughness or unwillingness to give in?

If you dont believe that mental toughness is not bred in to Furys people then youve never been on a site and watched how we are brought up ...thats as laughable as saying the polish aren't strong

You know when i first told my in laws (non gypsies) about the storeys of fights/ growing up on sites etc and the way my father brought me up they looked at me like some abused child :)

Lets put it this way ,that type of heritage and upbringing Fury has will not do him any harm in the fight game will it mate

[lillywhite14]

Probably meant he was always going to brought up being encouraged to fight but doesn't mean he has a natural advantage over others that have boxed and fought from an early age ( such as Haye or 99.9% of boxers out there, they all usually start very young )

It won't do him harm no, unless of course it takes its toll physically ( a lot of traveller lads peak early, very early. The lifestyle doesn't lend itself to longevity, physically speaking ) but it doesn't give him an advantage.

What's the Poles being strong got to do with anything mate!? Not sure I follow that one!

[CiganoBoxer]

What's the Poles being strong got to do with anything mate!? Not sure I follow that one!

It was an attempt at Humour mate ,i dont just box i do BJJ and every pole ii wrestle with got the strenght of ten men
Even the skinny ones that dont train are strong :)

[orbtastic]

As you know, i have very strong links to the Traveller community, but the guy is right. Although in the minority in the general population, i would go as far as to say they are in the majority in Amateur Boxing, at least in my region. Every show i go to, which is is quite a lot, it is mainly Traveller and Asian kids on the bill, nearly always juniors. The numbers just seem to drop off as they get to the seniors and then even further when they get to the pro's. The amount of talent in the juniors and amount of junior champions suggest there should have been a Traveller world champ by now. And you cant keep going on about DNA. That would make Fury a dead cert for a journeyman looking at his Father. My Nephew boxed a Traveller and beat him, a Traveller beat someone from our club. Luke Campbell, one of the cleanest cut, nicest kids you could meet, dropped and beat a member of the famous Nevin clan to win Olympic Gold! Its about the individual. Nobody was more upset than me when Wharton lost his World Title challenges buthe would tell you himself he got beat by the better man. Keep an eye out for him on Ringside...

When's he due on?

[lillywhite14]

What's the Poles being strong got to do with anything mate!? Not sure I follow that one!

It was an attempt at Humour mate ,i dont just box i do BJJ and every pole ii wrestle with got the strenght of ten men
Even the skinny ones that dont train are strong :)

Ah ok! Went over my head that one!

[mickey1975]

They were filming at his gym this week.

[NazNaci1]

Haye would beat Fury. Has has more speed and definitely more power. Fury is big and can box a bit but I honestly can't see him winning this one, let alone agreeing to taking it on.

Haye would stop him, in my opinion.

[HomicideHenry]

Being 1/7th gypsy myself (Scotch-Irish) and knowing many travellers personally, I can say the advantage (if there is one) to being a traveller is growing up hard and coming up hard. Alot of family jealousies, rivalries, one trying to out do the other. Very competitive people. You have to come up with a winning mindset, have that confidence. The greatest boxers, whether amateur or professional, generally come from poor, hard upbringings. It's a mental and emotional edge over the rest. The rest comes through hard work, discipline, and of course testing yourself. Most travellers are content being the 'king' of their breed in bare-knuckle, or it goes a bit further into the amateurs. Seldom do you see that many professionals. That's why men like Johnny Frankham and Henry Wharton and the Hilton's are held to such high regard among the travellers and even fringe contenders like Bobby Gunn.

The explosion of gypsy pros, though, seems to be a new one. I know alot of the time culture holds people back from becoming something more. Take Bartley Gorman for example. He had many amateur fights and over 300 bare knuckle matches (according to Peter Fury), and he went to Wales in Merthyr to 'try-out' to be in a novice heavyweight PRO tournament, organised by Ken Buchanan's manager. Gorman sparred Roger Barlow and in two rounds almost kayoed Barlow. He was a shoo-in to be in the tournament, but Gorman's culture raised such a fuss saying "Thats beneath you, you're the king of the gypsies, you shouldnt be fighting novices" and Gorman unfortunately never did turn pro, though he had the tools to of been a good one. The same mindset was used against John Fury. Not a novice among the bunch that he fought I don't believe, and that's part of the reason why he looked so average in the ring.

[lillywhite14]

Surely he looked average, at best, in the ring, because he was nothing more than average in the ring?

Boxers generally come from "tough" ( its all relative though ) backgrounds. Travellers do tend to have a "tougher" upbringing than most and of course, are far more exposed to the sport given how popular it is in their community.
Don't give them an advantage over other boxers and fighters though. In my experience it can be argued to be the opposite ( a lot of travellers are considered old before their time due to the upbringing and lifestyle, eff having a wife and kids in my teens for example! Enough to age any man prematurely ) Quite a few seem to fall away when it gets to the seniors, despite being decent as juniors for example ( although that's pretty common across the board I guess )

Do you think maybe the likes of Gorman being discouraged from going pro was a face saving attempt? Seeing the 'king of the gypsies' getting laid out cold by an average pro boxer wouldn't have looked good for the fighter or the community maybe?
Wasn't that bloke Joe Savage supposed to be a top gypsy bare knuckle man? He is the guy that got destroyed by Bert Cooper in the pro game I think.

[Deserter]

Wasn't that bloke Joe Savage supposed to be a top gypsy bare knuckle man? He is the guy that got destroyed by Bert Cooper in the pro game I think.

Yep, he looked like he'd never laced up the gloves before, total mismatch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhH--zvzUns

[CiganoBoxer]

Surely he looked average, at best, in the ring, because he was nothing more than average in the ring?

Boxers generally come from "tough" ( its all relative though ) backgrounds. Travellers do tend to have a "tougher" upbringing than most and of course, are far more exposed to the sport given how popular it is in their community.
Don't give them an advantage over other boxers and fighters though. In my experience it can be argued to be the opposite ( a lot of travellers are considered old before their time due to the upbringing and lifestyle, eff having a wife and kids in my teens for example! Enough to age any man prematurely ) Quite a few seem to fall away when it gets to the seniors, despite being decent as juniors for example ( although that's pretty common across the board I guess )

Do you think maybe the likes of Gorman being discouraged from going pro was a face saving attempt? Seeing the 'king of the gypsies' getting laid out cold by an average pro boxer wouldn't have looked good for the fighter or the community maybe?
Wasn't that bloke Joe Savage supposed to be a top gypsy bare knuckle man? He is the guy that got destroyed by Bert Cooper in the pro game I think.

What i think the casual fans miss is the difference between BKB and boxing , there is huge difference between both ,no rounds ,no gloves,no clinches ,no ring makes a huge difference .
Because your are a good boxer dont necessarily mean your gonna be a world beater in BKB or visa versa .
There has been several high profile boxers fail miserably at BKB and some do well...its all relative .

[Ratchet Exits Nu]

Fury could beat Haye......................but Haye can also beat Fury.

Lets get it orrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

[n1ebf]

I saw Fury on TV happily saying to the camera he likes to start each day with a full English breakfast. Admittedly it was about 3 years ago and he's trimmed down a fair bit. Whereas Haye's been an athlete since he was about ten. I don't even think this fight would be close although if it were to come off I'd rather see Fury win than Haye, who I don't think ever planned to permanently retire at all, but boy did he go on and on and on about it. All this chasing Klitschko around then getting out-thought and out-fought, then saying he wants the other one and why haven't they been ringing him up the last year? £500 ringside do me a favour please.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Haye will destroy Fury....I don't rate Haye as a heavy, but he can punch, and is technically in another league to Fury. The minute he lands, Fury would be all over the place, and he will land.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I saw Fury on TV happily saying to the camera he likes to start each day with a full English breakfast. Admittedly it was about 3 years ago and he's trimmed down a fair bit. Whereas Haye's been an athlete since he was about ten. I don't even think this fight would be close although if it were to come off I'd rather see Fury win than Haye, who I don't think ever planned to permanently retire at all, but boy did he go on and on and on about it. All this chasing Klitschko around then getting out-thought and out-fought, then saying he wants the other one and why haven't they been ringing him up the last year? £500 ringside do me a favour please.

There is nothing wrong with a full english as food. Bacon, eggs, sausage, as long as they are decent quality, are fine foods. The old timers used to train on steak and eggs, and modern nutritionists now recognise that that high quality protein and fats are key. They now recommend that 40% of our diet should come from fats and oils. I suspect Fury likes to go on the piss. Fury is not much of an athlete, he is tall, and barrel chested, but he has legs like noodles, and really isnt that much of a specimen compared the the likes of the klitchskos. Fury could probably trim down to 220 - he's actually quite a skinny guy, despite the broad shoulders.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Surely he looked average, at best, in the ring, because he was nothing more than average in the ring?

Boxers generally come from "tough" ( its all relative though ) backgrounds. Travellers do tend to have a "tougher" upbringing than most and of course, are far more exposed to the sport given how popular it is in their community.
Don't give them an advantage over other boxers and fighters though. In my experience it can be argued to be the opposite ( a lot of travellers are considered old before their time due to the upbringing and lifestyle, eff having a wife and kids in my teens for example! Enough to age any man prematurely ) Quite a few seem to fall away when it gets to the seniors, despite being decent as juniors for example ( although that's pretty common across the board I guess )

Do you think maybe the likes of Gorman being discouraged from going pro was a face saving attempt? Seeing the 'king of the gypsies' getting laid out cold by an average pro boxer wouldn't have looked good for the fighter or the community maybe?
Wasn't that bloke Joe Savage supposed to be a top gypsy bare knuckle man? He is the guy that got destroyed by Bert Cooper in the pro game I think.

Two words....Gene Tunney. Or SRL for that matter. Smarts count for a lot in boxing.

[lillywhite14]

I kind of agree although certainly not with the rugby, NFL, football analogy.

Boxing is unique. It's only you in there. It takes a certain make up to reach the top and can come from any walk of life.
Being gifted academically has no bearing on a persons athletic genetic make up. It's all relative too. Some people have to work twice as hard as others just to achieve half the result. Who stands a better chance of being half decent in the ring, Johnny who is as thick as shit but works twice as hard as straight A student Billy, just to achieve a C grade? Answer? Who the eff knows!
"ring smarts" is different smarts. It's like watching creative footballers. Look at Gascoigne. Daft as a brush is being kind, put him on a football pitch and he is a bonafide genius.

I thinks its insulting to boxing and boxers to suggest that people who have taken different routes could be better than those already boxing.

Boxing does lose out on potential good fighters though, as many other sports do for whatever reason ( often thought Rugby is the prime example of this, elitist, not accessible to anywhere near enough kids, England has missed out on generation after generation of great players stuck in the working classes and not given any exposure to the game )

[lillywhite14]

I guess it's the way it comes cross. It's very much a current scene thing.

'The latest great heavyweight champ is cyrrently playing linebacker for' then insert a random NFL team.

I wonder if there are people on NFL forms saying Wlad is the best linebacker in the world but he preferred boxing!

[HomicideHenry]

Do you think maybe the likes of Gorman being discouraged from going pro was a face saving attempt? Seeing the 'king of the gypsies' getting laid out cold by an average pro boxer wouldn't have looked good for the fighter or the community maybe?

Wasn't that bloke Joe Savage supposed to be a top gypsy bare knuckle man? He is the guy that got destroyed by Bert Cooper in the pro game I think.

No Joe Savage wasn't a gypsy man. In fact, not too many people even on the underground scene had ever even heard of Savage until he managed to talk his way into boxing. He looked the part, but the truth is probably he never fought anyone at all. He, at best, was quite possibly a door man at a bar or club some where. The whole 42-0 (42) record was bogus. Same logic goes with Paddy Monagahn, who claims he was the 'undefeated middleweight bare knuckle champion of the world' in 114 fights. Problem with that is, there is no pictures or film, and everyone on the underground circuit never heard of Paddy Monagahn or any of his opponents. What's worse, is after uncovering info on Paddy it seems he was a complete con artist, as he was an amateur boxer in his youth but had to 'retire' because he had epileptic seizures and still suffers from them. No man is going 114 wins undefeated when he's an epileptic. One punch and you're on the floor with a seizure.

As for Bartley Gorman, you can only go by what the sources say. In Gorman's case, his word is indeed backed up by Ken Buchanan's manager/trainer Eddie Thomas who in 1978 arranged the 'heavyweight novice tournament' to determine the next up and coming heavyweight in Britain. He can attest that Gorman (in the try out) almost knocked out Roger Barlow in two rounds in sparring, and Barlow was one of the top light heavyweights in Britain at the time. Gorman had a rather lengthy amatuer record himself and as a bare knuckle man defeated at least two pro heavyweights (Don Halden being one). Gorman's brother Sam was also very talented, having been a sparring partner for Jerry Quarry when Jerry came overseas to fight Jack Boddell. As for 'saving face', it surely didn't ruin Fury's reputation among the gypsies when he lost to guys like Akinwande. With that logic, one would have to assume Gorman could see into the future and say to himself "I would be the most famous gypsy fighter of all time, if I never stepped into a ring" over thirty years before his death. Do you understand what I mean? That would be giving a man like Gorman an awful lot of credit for making himself a legend with less than an elementary school education. No, he did it because he had the reputation, that was built on ability as a fighting man. Even the Fury's will say Gorman was the best fighting man among the gypsies, and Tyson Fury arguably has gone farther than any other Irish Traveller in boxing. Why give the man that much reverance unless it happened to be the case.

[ILikeBeer]

With Haye's big mouth you could bill this as:

THE SOUND & THE FURY

Hey?

HEY?

Literary boxing fans will be creaming over that one.

Haye KO Fury, making him look every bit as ridiculous as he did Enzo Macc.

Wasn't an old Mike Tyson fight billed as that? I forget which one. One of the Holyfield fights maybe?

[orbtastic]

yeah