The Brothers K v the 1990s

[polecateddy]

I’m saying the Klit era hasn’t been as deep but many of the challengers they have defeated would hold their own with the 1980s fighters. I don’t see much of a difference. I look at Sam Peter and see the archetypal 1980s HW…carrying too much weight…not entirely focused…sleepwalking to defeat…

Unlike Holmes and Bowe the Klits have turned over every stone to find challengers and when they leave the sport there will be nobody crowing that they didn’t get their shot. That’s worth something in my book.

The idea some are putting out…that Michael Moorer beats either of them goes so far it ceases to be funny…

I’m not trying to promote the Klits here. I’m just being honest about the 1980s and retired fighters.

I'm with you one this one, for what it's worth.
Maybe not Peter or charr, but Haye, ibramigov, Chagaev, sanders, Brewster ect would have all been top 20 guys in the 80's

...Frank Bruno was safely in the top ten for an extended period of time during the 80's. I think it's easier to imagine then that Haye, Ibramigov, Chagaev and Brewster would have all had a reasonable chance of beating big Frank, and thus just saying top 20 is underestimating the current crop by some margin.

[Rover]

Haye and Brewster certainly could've beaten Bruno.
I doubt Chagaev or Ibragimov could've.
They never struck me as big punchers, which is what beat Bruno.

[polecateddy]

Haye and Brewster certainly could've beaten Bruno.
I doubt Chagaev or Ibragimov could've.
They never struck me as big punchers, which is what beat Bruno.

Stamina over a 12 rounder was a fairly big issue too. Frank was fairly protected between world title fights. If he'd been more active against contender types I think you'd have seen a lot more late stoppage reverses. Chag and Ib had good engines, and could have turned the fight their way as Frank flagged.

[Rover]

Haye and Brewster certainly could've beaten Bruno.
I doubt Chagaev or Ibragimov could've.
They never struck me as big punchers, which is what beat Bruno.

Stamina over a 12 rounder was a fairly big issue too. Frank was fairly protected between world title fights. If he'd been more active against contender types I think you'd have seen a lot more late stoppage reverses. Chag and Ib had good engines, and could have turned the fight their way as Frank flagged.

I doubt that. I go by whom Bruno lost to. He had problems with big hitters, and three of those losses were within 7 rounds.

[Ezzard]

He’s right, Rover. Frank’s problems were stamina and poor survival instincts. When he got tagged he sort of fell apart. But this usually happened late in fights when his huge arms turned to lead.

That’s not saying Frank had a great chin, he didn’t. But it’s sort of overplayed.

[Rover]

He’s right, Rover. Frank’s problems were stamina and poor survival instincts. When he got tagged he sort of fell apart. But this usually happened late in fights when his huge arms turned to lead.

That’s not saying Frank had a great chin, he didn’t. But it’s sort of overplayed.

I wouldn't call rounds 3, 5, and 7 late in fights.
And the guys he lost to were big punchers.
I don't think Chagaev and Ibragimov would've beaten Bruno.

[Ezzard]

7 rounds was pretty late for a Bruno fight. Other than Williams and McCall he lost fights against contenders that went beyond 5 or 6… And in the McCall fight he was hanging on by a thread from about round 7 onwards…

Chag and Ig might not have beaten him, you’re right about that…but they’d have a chance.

[Rover]

7 rounds was pretty late for a Bruno fight. Other than Williams and McCall he lost fights against contenders that went beyond 5 or 6… And in the McCall fight he was hanging on by a thread from about round 7 onwards…

Chag and Ig might not have beaten him, you’re right about that…but they’d have a chance.

I doubt it. Not hard enough hitters.
I don't consider the 7th late in a fight, and I think he'd have been gone from that hook whenever it'd landed.

[polecateddy]

7 rounds was pretty late for a Bruno fight. Other than Williams and McCall he lost fights against contenders that went beyond 5 or 6… And in the McCall fight he was hanging on by a thread from about round 7 onwards…

Chag and Ig might not have beaten him, you’re right about that…but they’d have a chance.

I doubt it. Not hard enough hitters.
I don't consider the 7th late in a fight, and I think he'd have been gone from that hook whenever it'd landed.

Bruno had done extensive work for the McCall fight to sort the stamina issues out. Against a very passive champion, he was still hanging on for dear life at the end, turning southpaw of all things just to stagger over the finish line. Lewis may have won in 7, but Bruno was knackered out and on the way out before the massive left hook landed. Certainly against Witherspoon the gas tank emptied again. I would say provided Chag and Ig negotiated the early rounds - and they were skilled enough to do that - then there would be an opportunity to stage a big comeback in the 2nd half of the fight. Perhaps they would be behind on points, Bruno's opponents often were. In fact I think only Tyson was ahead in any of his loses.

[Rover]

7 rounds was pretty late for a Bruno fight. Other than Williams and McCall he lost fights against contenders that went beyond 5 or 6… And in the McCall fight he was hanging on by a thread from about round 7 onwards…

Chag and Ig might not have beaten him, you’re right about that…but they’d have a chance.

I doubt it. Not hard enough hitters.
I don't consider the 7th late in a fight, and I think he'd have been gone from that hook whenever it'd landed.

Bruno had done extensive work for the McCall fight to sort the stamina issues out. Against a very passive champion, he was still hanging on for dear life at the end, turning southpaw of all things just to stagger over the finish line. Lewis may have won in 7, but Bruno was knackered out and on the way out before the massive left hook landed. Certainly against Witherspoon the gas tank emptied again. I would say provided Chag and Ig negotiated the early rounds - and they were skilled enough to do that - then there would be an opportunity to stage a big comeback in the 2nd half of the fight. Perhaps they would be behind on points, Bruno's opponents often were. In fact I think only Tyson was ahead in any of his loses.

McCall was also a big puncher.
The Lewis fight was even on two cards, I believe.

[polecateddy]

Is McCall a big puncher, or just an average puncher at this kind of level?! Certainly both Bruno and Lewis hit a lot harder.

[Rover]

Is McCall a big puncher, or just an average puncher at this kind of level?! Certainly both Bruno and Lewis hit a lot harder.

No, I don't consider him just an average puncher. Far better than Chagaev or Ibragimov IMHO.

[Datsue]

Is McCall a big puncher, or just an average puncher at this kind of level?! Certainly both Bruno and Lewis hit a lot harder.

McCall hit much much harder than Chagaev or Ibragimov. Got torque & bodyweight into his power shots, which Ruslan or Sultan rarely did.

Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, Lewis, Tyson, all of these men had genuine heavyweight stopping power.

McCall was a level below these but still a hard hitter, or at least could occasionally pull out a big punch.

Chag & Ig were fast-handed amateur-type punchers who could produce a decently leveraged sharp punch as a surprise in the middle of their normal flurries. Both would need a run-up to dent Bruno. They might, however, get him so tired he was overwhelmed from an accumulation, particularly a young Ibragimov, but I doubt it.

[Rover]

Is McCall a big puncher, or just an average puncher at this kind of level?! Certainly both Bruno and Lewis hit a lot harder.

McCall hit much much harder than Chagaev or Ibragimov. Got torque & bodyweight into his power shots, which Ruslan or Sultan rarely did.

Witherspoon, Bonecrusher, Lewis, Tyson, all of these men had genuine heavyweight stopping power.

McCall was a level below these but still a hard hitter, or at least could occasionally pull out a big punch.

Chag & Ig were fast-handed amateur-type punchers who could produce a decently leveraged sharp punch as a surprise in the middle of their normal flurries. Both would need a run-up to dent Bruno. They might, however, get him so tired he was overwhelmed from an accumulation, particularly a young Ibragimov, but I doubt it.

Better than I put it.

[zorndeslammes]

Man, I preferred this as the Brothers Klitschko against the top heavyweights of the 1990s. Aren't people tired yet of the exercise of re-assessing 1980s heavyweights? Can't we just cut to the chase and say "lots of talented guys + cocaine + Don King = wasted fighters"?

The actual question itself....almost surprised no one has mentioned Akinwande. People can say what they will about Huggin' Henry's title bout, but he could be a dangerous foe. Good power, size, had real technique. I think Wladimir would have had a lot of issues with him, Vitali perhaps less so because he isn't so chinny.

[polecateddy]

Man, I preferred this as the Brothers Klitschko against the top heavyweights of the 1990s. Aren't people tired yet of the exercise of re-assessing 1980s heavyweights? Can't we just cut to the chase and say "lots of talented guys + cocaine + Don King = wasted fighters"?

The actual question itself....almost surprised no one has mentioned Akinwande. People can say what they will about Huggin' Henry's title bout, but he could be a dangerous foe. Good power, size, had real technique. I think Wladimir would have had a lot of issues with him, Vitali perhaps less so because he isn't so chinny.

I always thought it was a shame the Holyfield fight didn't happen. Henry would surely of won on points. Mind you that didn't do much for Larry Donald's career at the end of the day.

[polecateddy]

At his best he could have pushed the brothers I think. Probably the decisions would have gone against him. I reckon he could have blown out Herbie Hide and been more popular than he was given better opportunities.

[polecateddy]

With Frank Bruno, you do have poor survival instincts (seems like he was a very worried type of fellow - which is why probably why he was such a gentleman) and not great conditioning, but, on the other hand I think he's got to be top five w/Heavyweights one shot power.

He had great conditioning, but was too muscle-bound to be comfortable over 12 rounds. Ten probably would have been a lot better for him. Great basic skills, jab and right-hander, etc. And he improved throughout his career.

Interesting stat though when considering his power - Big Frank never scored a knock-down in any one of his world title fights. He did make McCall's knees dip in the 2nd round though, which is a feat in itself!

[Rover]

With Frank Bruno, you do have poor survival instincts (seems like he was a very worried type of fellow - which is why probably why he was such a gentleman) and not great conditioning, but, on the other hand I think he's got to be top five w/Heavyweights one shot power.

He had great conditioning, but was too muscle-bound to be comfortable over 12 rounds. Ten probably would have been a lot better for him. Great basic skills, jab and right-hander, etc. And he improved throughout his career.

Interesting stat though when considering his power - Big Frank never scored a knock-down in any one of his world title fights. He did make McCall's knees dip in the 2nd round though, which is a feat in itself!

He fought some pretty solid-chinned guys, though.

[polecateddy]

With Frank Bruno, you do have poor survival instincts (seems like he was a very worried type of fellow - which is why probably why he was such a gentleman) and not great conditioning, but, on the other hand I think he's got to be top five w/Heavyweights one shot power.

He had great conditioning, but was too muscle-bound to be comfortable over 12 rounds. Ten probably would have been a lot better for him. Great basic skills, jab and right-hander, etc. And he improved throughout his career.

Interesting stat though when considering his power - Big Frank never scored a knock-down in any one of his world title fights. He did make McCall's knees dip in the 2nd round though, which is a feat in itself!

He fought some pretty solid-chinned guys, though.

...yeah, I don't think there's any real doubt Frank had seriously heavy hands. He certainly rocked Tyson, Lewis and McCall ...and I presume Witherspoon and Smith too, although I don't recall these fights very well. It was only Tyson 2 where Bruno didn't have any good moments. I harsher critic may point out that between world title fights he was very protected and his power punching displays were against fairly woeful or unmotivated opponents.