(OT) The death of Maggie poll

[dondada]

Great post Fizz.

[n1ebf]

the Unhappys just caught up with the Happys. 61-61. 30 inbetween. That is some split.

[banjo]

British coal was crap wasn't it? Too much sulphur or summat. Foreign coal was better quality and better value.

The motor industry had the same problem, paying over the odds for a piece of shit built here when you can get something from Germany or Japan which won't fall apart and costs less.

[NazNaci1]

Fantastic post, Fizz.

[The 1bangkid]

Which ironically the Labour Party allowed.

A new Labour much more akin to Conservatism than traditional Labour. They betrayed their voters time and again.

[Coco]

And they bought of Prescott so they could use his old Labour face to vindicate New Labour.
He happily sold out for his 2 jags! It was amusing that he always lambasted the House of Lords, then accepted a peerage 'because it would make his wife happy'!

[jimcook]

I haven't been out celebrating her death, not because I have a single drop of fondness, respect or good will for her, rather that the damage she and the cohort of cronies in her Government and private industry did has already been done and the effects are entrenched throughout my country and the rest of the UK. I've no issue with anyone celebrating her death, if the media and general political spectrum can trumpet her passing with the fervour many of them are embarking upon then it's just as palatable in my eyes for those who find her passing a reason to rejoice to take to the streets and do so.

The idea that Thatcher as an individual is solely responsible for all of what happened to my country under her tenure is wrong - those in her Government, those she made wealthy, those who voted for her, those whose vested self interests she protected are accountable as well - but she was the figurehead of the changes that were forced through in the 1980's, changes which I believe still take a heavy toll many men women and children today.

The area in Edinburgh where I work today is synonymous with much of what she and others of her ilk caused. Generations of the long term unemployed live in what little council housing remains, much of it barely fit for human existence. Much of it has been knocked down, replaced by a college and hospital built under Private Finance Initiative schemes which levy a heavy cost on the public purse in the form of expensive, fixed rates which return a healthy profit to their private consortiums. What affordable housing is now built is done so under intense pressure, and is done so to the bare minimum, in the least desirable areas. The cost of housing in the city is such that young, working class families are forced to move tens of miles from their families and local communities out to the outskirts, and then take on the financial load of car ownership due to the poor quality of our public transport network. Those who are left behind are left with little. No local community. High crime. Jobs in business parks miles away. In these circumstances drug and alcohol abuse is high, violence and crime common - there is little sense of community.

She stood by as the coal, ship and metal industries in my country were torn apart. Communities suffered the cost. She stood by while a Poll tax was levied with the idea that we all pay the same amounts - peanuts to the city slicker she was helping to make rich, unaffordable fortunes to the manual labourers she had cast aside. The old rates up here were unpopular but the result of the change was that this countries people were treated like lab rats as a testing subject for the rest of the UK.

For me what is there to celebrate? That at 31 I'd be viewed as crazy to seek council housing when what is left of it has been left to rot? That families and communities around me are still suffering from the industries she tore apart? That what is left of the Labour party is a shadow of what it once was, paying lip service to the working class whilst constantly seeking ways to curry favour with middle England (where-ever the hell that is)? I'm glad she is dead but it's about 40 years too late to celebrate it.

too true. and what adds insult to injury is that while the thatcher foundation has multi millions to promote the old kunt and her poisonous ideology, we , the cash strapped genuine tax payer, are paying 10 million to send her off with a glorious funeral.

[orbtastic]

Question.. If there is still coal to be mined in these pits, is there anything stopping a private company mining there? I was just wondering if some of these places could ever go back to being mining towns again.

From what I understand the pits were closed in such a way that they can't be safely reopened.

The problem is lack of maintenance. To a large extent this is the problem with strikes, most of the retards banging on about scabs didn't realise that the majority of people crossing the picket line were working to keep the pits operational so that they would be a pit to come back to.

[keithmoonhangover]

I felt Maggie and her politics were good for grafters with ambition whatever class you were.

Not if you grafted at a shipyard or coal mine in the North East of England.

[Chambers2]

Great post Fizz

[Chambers2]

Tony Blair really showed us how to reverse Thatcher's policies.

He re-regulated the banks and renationalised the utilities Thatcher privatised, and then re-opened the mines.

He then taxed the rich and re-distributed to the poor.

He also protected British workers' jobs.

What a Socialist.

I agree that Blair was just as bad and did nothing to reverse the mistakes she made, I'd have no sympathy if the war-criminal pooped his cloggs tomorrow either.

I don't think people hate Maggie because she was a tory, it's down to the policies she implemented which put nearly 2m more people on the dole and drew all the power, prospects and money to London

[Chambers2]

British coal was crap wasn't it? Too much sulphur or summat. Foreign coal was better quality and better value.

The motor industry had the same problem, paying over the odds for a piece of poo built here when you can get something from Germany or Japan which won't fall apart and costs less.

The manufacturing industries definitley needed a shake up and a lot of the blame has to go to the management of these companies. Such as the motorbike industry over here (BSA, Triumph, Norton etc.), we had a 50 year head start on the Japanese on designing and making bikes yet they seemed to overtake us in a few years. We seemed to have the ideology that the bikes we produced worked fine, so why bother developing them further

IMO the manufacturing industries (and mines) needed modernising, investing and in and a change of culture instilling in them, something the governments should've been doing. They didn't deserve to be lined up against a wall and shot, putting an extra 1.8m on the dole

[fizzjambo]

I felt Maggie and her politics were good for grafters with ambition whatever class you were.

Not if you grafted at a shipyard or coal mine in the North East of England.

Agreed. I've always resented this idea that Thatcher was for you if you grafted. You don't get much harder physical graft than down a pit, or on a dockyard. She was for you if you wanted to better yourself but for me and many others that's about climbing your way over the top of others . As idealist as many may see it I'd prefer to better myself by trying to improve the lot of my community or fellow workers rather than simply feather my own nest.

[J]

its fashionable to hate thatcher, yes she like most politicians stayed on too long and went a bit bonkers but people forget the mess we were in under callaghan and labour..3 day weeks no electric, unions having sway .

she at least opened the uk up to an open economy that many of us have enjoyed the general benefits from that commericalisation.

Also at least she didnt bare faced lie to the public like blair.

[Parson Cross]

Yes she did. Publicly she was saying we will never give up the Falklands.
Privately negotiations were nearly concluded to hand them back just before the Argies invaded.
Documents disclosed under 30 year rule.
We never learn - all Politicians are liars and piss in the same pot.
Boxing Promotors ..........

[danconnollyeire]

... in other news David Cameron is still alive

And back to boxing

[J]

Yes she did. Publicly she was saying we will never give up the Falklands.
Privately negotiations were nearly concluded to hand them back just before the Argies invaded.
Documents disclosed under 30 year rule.
We never learn - all Politicians are liars and piss in the same pot.
Boxing Promotors ..........

DID SHE GIVE UP THE FALKLANDS NO. = not lying
Were there weopons of mass destruction in Iraq = NO = Lying.

but agree its like being asked if you would rather be pissed or shat on making a choice between one set or another.

[Coco]

I felt Maggie and her politics were good for grafters with ambition whatever class you were.

Not if you grafted at a shipyard or coal mine in the North East of England.

Agreed. I've always resented this idea that Thatcher was for you if you grafted. You don't get much harder physical graft than down a pit, or on a dockyard. She was for you if you wanted to better yourself but for me and many others that's about climbing your way over the top of others . As idealist as many may see it I'd prefer to better myself by trying to improve the lot of my community or fellow workers rather than simply feather my own nest.

I'm not trying to deny that the dismantling of traditional industries had a terrible affect on their local communities, but these industries were absolutely unsustainable. This wasn't helped by workers getting bollokings for working too fast and the culture of clocking in and out on a Friday and getting down the pub.

[palooka]

Question.. If there is still coal to be mined in these pits, is there anything stopping a private company mining there? I was just wondering if some of these places could ever go back to being mining towns again.

Many of the pits required pumps to clear water; the pumps were turned off and so the pits flooded and the machinary ruined, loads of the gear down there had to be taken down and then assembled. The coal cannot be recovered, it just got wasted.

[Parson Cross]

J
Did she say we'll never give up the Falklands ? Yes.
Did she say this when she was negotiating with the Argies to give it them ? Yes.
Does that make her a two faced lying twat ? Too fuckin right it does.
I don't give a shit about Blair or any othe Politician for that matter.
Burn the lot of em for me.

[Mensa07]

Question.. If there is still coal to be mined in these pits, is there anything stopping a private company mining there? I was just wondering if some of these places could ever go back to being mining towns again.

Many of the pits required pumps to clear water; the pumps were turned off and so the pits flooded and the machinary ruined, loads of the gear down there had to be taken down and then assembled. The coal cannot be recovered, it just got wasted.

ah ok, thanks.

[Mimmy]

Question.. If there is still coal to be mined in these pits, is there anything stopping a private company mining there? I was just wondering if some of these places could ever go back to being mining towns again.

Many of the pits required pumps to clear water; the pumps were turned off and so the pits flooded and the machinary ruined, loads of the gear down there had to be taken down and then assembled. The coal cannot be recovered, it just got wasted.

ah ok, thanks.

I know they put a lot of gear down the shafts when decommissioning them, Such as the lift workings, and wheels etc, they possibly did somethnig to the shafts too to stop them falling in as a lot of houses are built on top of the mines now. So unless they made another mine miles away and drilled to the coal which would take years I guess they would not be able to get to the coal the original way.

[palooka]

The new estate at Edlington and the one at Armthorpe on top of the pit works have problems with subsidence.

[Mimmy]

The new estate at Edlington and the one at Armthorpe on top of the pit works have problems with subsidence.

Do they really? Its hardly suprising I bet those houses in Edlo aren't more than 15-20 years old.

[orbtastic]

Question.. If there is still coal to be mined in these pits, is there anything stopping a private company mining there? I was just wondering if some of these places could ever go back to being mining towns again.

Many of the pits required pumps to clear water; the pumps were turned off and so the pits flooded and the machinary ruined, loads of the gear down there had to be taken down and then assembled. The coal cannot be recovered, it just got wasted.

ah ok, thanks.

It depends how the pit was decommissioned.

Some of the shafts were literally filled with 900m3 of concrete and the adits and drivages sealed off. Some had the winding tower and all the gear dismantled. Some had the driftages stowed.

Some were left as-is and even had care and maintenance undertaken for years (but I think all that has stopped now) - This was the case with Selby.

The thing with a lot of pits is that there were lots of shafts sunk but they're all interconnected underground, that's often why pit villages were in close proximity, they were often working seams or drifts very close to others being worked by another pit. You could often walk between some pits.

Maltby & Selby still have tonnes of coal, the problem is that you would either need to re-sink the shafts or sink new ones and then you have the issue of water (no surprise really, it's a km underground) and lack of work/pumping/maintenance done since it was shut.

Harworth was kept open by RJ Budge (private contractor) after the rest were shut as were two in the Midlands, can't remember where off the top of my head, but these were shut a few years ago - These would be easier to re-open but a. it's a massive undertaking b. there are associated localised issues with each, hence their closure c. why would you do it?

I worked at Maltby when we were either sinking or deepening No 3 shaft.

Of course the other issues you have are that you have a huge amount of lost knowledge/experience associated with it. Ok so a lot of them went sideways into civils and some even went abroad and worked on shafts and mines there but from experience, most of them are at or over retirement age now - I'm talking about your real technical guys, not the guys at the coal face, so to speak.