Hearns - Duran (1980 at Welterweight)

[LeedsLad]

I think everyone has a soft spot for Duran, but people need to get this fight out of their heads.

It would take something far more special than what he produced against Leonard to beat Hearns, something he just doesn't have.

There aren't many welters I'd take to last more than six rounds against Hearns, let alone beat him.

[keithmoonhangover]

I think everyone has a soft spot for Duran, but people need to get this fight out of their heads.

It would take something far more special than what he produced against Leonard to beat Hearns, something he just doesn't have.

There aren't many welters I'd take to last more than six rounds against Hearns, let alone beat him.

What your saying gives a lot of credit to Leonard for beating Hearns at Welter.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think everyone has a soft spot for Duran, but people need to get this fight out of their heads.

It would take something far more special than what he produced against Leonard to beat Hearns, something he just doesn't have.

There aren't many welters I'd take to last more than six rounds against Hearns, let alone beat him.

What your saying gives a lot of credit to Leonard for beating Hearns at Welter.

He deserves it, Leonard went through hell for that win.

[LeedsLad]

I'm not a Leonard fan by any means, but it's one of the best victories ever for a fighter in the middle weights, say from 135-160.

Taller, longer, superior boxer with murderous power - the only thing Leonard had on Hearns was speed, and the obvious ones of stamina and chin.

Hearns was probably a year or two off his absolute best, but was still a formidable force who'd beaten every welterweight worth beating other than Duran prior to the first Leonard fight.

If he'd been around in any other era, he'd have been a very dominant middleweight champion, could you seriously imagine any fighter from 147-160 lasting six rounds with him, let alone beating him?

[elmersalsa]

Duran was indeed a very tough man, and uncommonly brave, which in part caused his downfall in this fight.

I just fail to see how a fighter like Duran can beat a man like Hearns. Taller, longer, a murderous puncher with supreme boxing skills too. Or rather, I certainly wouldn't put any money on that being the outcome.

It's alright saying that Tommy was vulnerable to pressure, but Leonard was one of the best welterweights of all time, and Hearns had already withstood one big onslaught in the middle rounds before dominating Leonard in the next few rounds.

Hagler was the best middleweight ever in the biggest fight of his life.

Barkley I'm not sure that pressure was the reason for his victory, he was being utterly demolished before hitting a homerun on Tommy's chin.

You persist with the 147lbs and down line - I suppose if Tommy chops his leg off he'd make 135

Supreme boxing skills? Better skills than Duran? No sir.

It seems that you have not seen Duran at his very best. It is a waste of time talking to you, but I am not letting you off the hook.

The weight class that Duran and Hearns fought was at 154lbs. A weight class TOO BIG FOR DURAN. Duran was a fighter of using movement. He was not a stationary target like he was at 154lbs and above. This guy was a boxer that used angles and kept you off balance. Watch his foot movement and head movement when he was at his very best. It was perpetual motion with great coordination. One of the greatest punchers and pressure fighters around with a granite chin at his very best will lose to a guy that did not had a great chin at ww? Do not make me laugh, sir. You don't know what are you talking about.

Hearns at 154lbs was in a weight class PERFECT FOR HIM...Duran at 154lbs was A STATIONARY TARGET. NO MOVEMENT. SLOW. AND OUT OF HIS PRIME....Leonard, Benitez nor Duran could beat HEARNS in that weight. Why? He was faster, bigger and stronger than all of those guys at that class. Only the great Mike McCallum of the 154lbs bunch would have beaten him, and I am not that sure about that, either.

Hearns was one of those guys that if you last the very first 5 rounds you had the chance to win the fight. Leonard passed the 5th and it was over. Hagler did not gave him the opportunity to get set. Barkley, even though he was losing, he kept pressuring. Hearns chin FAILED HIM. Hearns was not in his prime either when he fought Barkley, but at 160lbs, Hearns was not that good either.

Watch the Pryor fight with Hearns....The same thing...Pressure. It's that a Billy Joel song?

[elmersalsa]

I think everyone has a soft spot for Duran, but people need to get this fight out of their heads.

It would take something far more special than what he produced against Leonard to beat Hearns, something he just doesn't have.

There aren't many welters I'd take to last more than six rounds against Hearns, let alone beat him.

What your saying gives a lot of credit to Leonard for beating Hearns at Welter.

He deserves it, Leonard went through hell for that win.

I could see plenty of welterweights that would have beaten Hearns at ww.
Emile Griffith could have been one.
Kid Gavilan at his very best would have murdered him
Carmen Basilio would have beaten him also.
Mickey Walker, Gil Turner, Billy Graham, Sugar Ray Robinson would have beaten Hearns.

Hearns was a great fighter, no doubt, but his chin would fail against these guys also. They were very, very good.

[elmersalsa]

I'm not a Leonard fan by any means, but it's one of the best victories ever for a fighter in the middle weights, say from 135-160.

Taller, longer, superior boxer with murderous power - the only thing Leonard had on Hearns was speed, and the obvious ones of stamina and chin.

Hearns was probably a year or two off his absolute best, but was still a formidable force who'd beaten every welterweight worth beating other than Duran prior to the first Leonard fight.

If he'd been around in any other era, he'd have been a very dominant middleweight champion, could you seriously imagine any fighter from 147-160 lasting six rounds with him, let alone beating him?

Kid Gavilan would have murdered him...Too much grit and determination
Carmen Basilio would have done the same thing.
Sugar Ray Robinson beats Hearns too.
Emile Griffith beats him too.

And that is only 147lbs.

Let's go to 160lbs:
Carlos Monzon kills Hearns
Rodrigo Valdez too.
Gene Fullmer pressure would be too much
Bernard Hopkins beats him...Much stronger
Jake LaMotta beats him...Too much grit and heart
Carmen Basilio at 160lbs would do the same trick
Marcel Cerdan's pressure would be too much for the Hitman
Dick Tiger? nuff said...these guys were too good

[LeedsLad]

My post should have read ''current fighters from 147-160''

[Dreadnought]

Duran was never in top shape after the Leonard I fight. He kept moving up in weight classes not because he got bigger from a musculoskeletal standpoint, but he just got flabbier and flabbier. Against Hearns he was fat and out of shape, barely making weight, whereas Hearns moved up from welterweight because he was physically bigger and stronger.

At welterweight a Duran in top shape may have had a chance against Hearns, but it would have been tough.

The question nobody asks is how would they have done at lightweight? In 1976 Hearns was fighting at 132. He was not physically as strong as he was at welter or middle weight, but he still had that reach advantage. I could see their fight being similar to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me-LEueNWR8

[Ezzard]

Agreed. Even when he beat Davey Moore, Duran was soft.

[King Carlos]

It's very difficult to see, given what we know and the basic styles match-up. I'm of the mind that Hearns was always poison for Duran. Not that it's really a mark against him. What other natural Lightweight would we entertain the idea of against Hearns?

[gilgamesh]

I think Hearns would still beat Roberto, but I doubt he'd have run him over quite so easily had the fight have taken place at this time. I think Roberto lasts into the 5th or 6th...but still gets knocked out.

[keithmoonhangover]

If Hearns overtrained like he did for the Leonard fight, then it's not impossible to imagine Duran scoring a late stoppage.

[BoxBuzz]

The fight was a fluke, and one that will keep Hearns legacy very shiny for a long long time.

Duran could be very very competitive with Hearns....on a more "typical" night.

The Barkley experience should keep the conversation somewhat tempered.

[gilgamesh]

If Hearns overtrained like he did for the Leonard fight, then it's not impossible to imagine Duran scoring a late stoppage.

Could be, I just think Hearns was a bad style match-up for Roberto. It really doesn't matter though, even though Hearns got the better of Duran in spectacular fashion when they actually met, I'd still say that in a P4P discussions Duran ranks well ahead of Hearns.

Both are all time greats definitely, but you can make a very strong case for Duran being one of the 10 or 15 best fighters EVER in the sport...you can't make that case for Hearns.

[Dreadnought]

If Hearns overtrained like he did for the Leonard fight, then it's not impossible to imagine Duran scoring a late stoppage.

Could be, I just think Hearns was a bad style match-up for Roberto. It really doesn't matter though, even though Hearns got the better of Duran in spectacular fashion when they actually met, I'd still say that in a P4P discussions Duran ranks well ahead of Hearns.

Both are all time greats definitely, but you can make a very strong case for Duran being one of the 10 or 15 best fighters EVER in the sport...you can't make that case for Hearns.

Did you see the youtube video I posted of Pryor vs Hearns?

Pryor was essentially the same size as Duran, but easily found a way to get inside Hearn's defense, and beat him handily. That was at 132 lbs. Would Pryor be able to do the same against a larger, stronger Hearns? At 142? 147? 154?

One could argue that Pryor got inside Hearns because was quicker than Duran, but I believe Duran was very quick as well. In Leonard I, he frequently made Leonard miss.

[elmersalsa]

Some fighters are better suit in other weight classes. Hearns frame was perfect for the 154 lbs division. He was very strong with sturdier legs. Something that at welterweight, Hearns had fringe legs and his chin was always questionable. The same could be said for Felix "Tito" Trinidad. The 154lbs was perfect for Tito.

In the other hand, Duran at 154lbs, was fat, slow, and a stationary target. No movement. Out of his prime. Duran was technician that could fight you inside/outside with speed and movement. Speed was the most UNDERRATED asset that Duran had. That is why he beat Sugar Ray. With speed and movement. Sugar Ray was very surprised at Manos de Piedra speed and movement.

Hearns knocked out Duran because it was a guy fighting in his prime, vs out of prime. And 154lbs and beyond were weight classes TOO BIG FOR the Hands of Stone.

[Dreadnought]

Speed was the most UNDERRATED asset that Duran had. That is why he beat Sugar Ray. With speed and movement. Sugar Ray was very surprised at Manos de Piedra speed and movement.

Agreed. Anyone looking at the Leonard I fight would notice how quick Duran was, even against a master boxer like Leonard.

I still would like to hear opinions on how Pryor would have done against Hearns in the heavier weight divisions.

Or how about Pryor vs Duran at 135, 142...??

[jezzamundo]

Some fighters are better suit in other weight classes. Hearns frame was perfect for the 154 lbs division. He was very strong with sturdier legs. Something that at welterweight, Hearns had fringe legs and his chin was always questionable. The same could be said for Felix "Tito" Trinidad. The 154lbs was perfect for Tito.

In the other hand, Duran at 154lbs, was fat, slow, and a stationary target. No movement. Out of his prime. Duran was technician that could fight you inside/outside with speed and movement. Speed was the most UNDERRATED asset that Duran had. That is why he beat Sugar Ray. With speed and movement. Sugar Ray was very surprised at Manos de Piedra speed and movement.

Hearns knocked out Duran because it was a guy fighting in his prime, vs out of prime. And 154lbs and beyond were weight classes TOO BIG FOR the Hands of Stone.

I think that you're way overstating the difference that the weight division makes in this matchup. I agree that 7lb does make a difference, but I think Duran's age and being past his prime is a far more important factor. That said, Duran was just coming off a very impressive losing effort against Hagler at middleweight and two knockout wins at 154lb over Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore, which is why Hearns's win is so impressive.

I think you're also overstating how much the 7lb makes things better for Hearns. The guy went 32-0 (30 by ko) at welterweight, including his 2 round destruction of Pipino Cuevas. I certainly wouldn't consider Hearns's performance against Leonard to be an indication that he would lose to Duran, he was ahead on all three scorecards at the time of the stoppage and was boxing brilliantly.

Ultimately the proposed matchup here is the Duran who beat Leonard against the Hearns who beat Cuevas. Duran has a huge edge in big fight experience and is a lot faster and sharper than he was against Hearns in 1984. Hearns is just coming into his prime and at that point was very comfortable fighting at 147lb. I'll agree that it would be a more competitive fight, especially if Duran fights low rather than upright as he did in their actual fight. I rate Duran as a live underdog to take it into the late rounds where he would thrive, but the more likely outcome is that Hearns stops him in the early to mid rounds.

[elmersalsa]

Some fighters are better suit in other weight classes. Hearns frame was perfect for the 154 lbs division. He was very strong with sturdier legs. Something that at welterweight, Hearns had fringe legs and his chin was always questionable. The same could be said for Felix "Tito" Trinidad. The 154lbs was perfect for Tito.

In the other hand, Duran at 154lbs, was fat, slow, and a stationary target. No movement. Out of his prime. Duran was technician that could fight you inside/outside with speed and movement. Speed was the most UNDERRATED asset that Duran had. That is why he beat Sugar Ray. With speed and movement. Sugar Ray was very surprised at Manos de Piedra speed and movement.

Hearns knocked out Duran because it was a guy fighting in his prime, vs out of prime. And 154lbs and beyond were weight classes TOO BIG FOR the Hands of Stone.

I think that you're way overstating the difference that the weight division makes in this matchup. I agree that 7lb does make a difference, but I think Duran's age and being past his prime is a far more important factor. That said, Duran was just coming off a very impressive losing effort against Hagler at middleweight and two knockout wins at 154lb over Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore, which is why Hearns's win is so impressive.

I think you're also overstating how much the 7lb makes things better for Hearns. The guy went 32-0 (30 by ko) at welterweight, including his 2 round destruction of Pipino Cuevas. I certainly wouldn't consider Hearns's performance against Leonard to be an indication that he would lose to Duran, he was ahead on all three scorecards at the time of the stoppage and was boxing brilliantly.

Ultimately the proposed matchup here is the Duran who beat Leonard against the Hearns who beat Cuevas. Duran has a huge edge in big fight experience and is a lot faster and sharper than he was against Hearns in 1984. Hearns is just coming into his prime and at that point was very comfortable fighting at 147lb. I'll agree that it would be a more competitive fight, especially if Duran fights low rather than upright as he did in their actual fight. I rate Duran as a live underdog to take it into the late rounds where he would thrive, but the more likely outcome is that Hearns stops him in the early to mid rounds.

Hearns was winning the fight against Sugar Ray but he was getting also a beating in the process. Rounds 6,7 and 8 had Hearns on queer street and then, Hearns did not had anymore hard punching left. Leonard took the best shots of the Hitman and certainly, Duran had better chin than Leonard. At 147 lbs, Hearns was seem as invincible, especially, when he beat Pipino Cuevas, whom the Mexicans thought he was invincible. That was all Hearns did at welterweight. Still, one of the best at that weight class, but when it comes fighting Duran at his very best, and in his prime like in Montreal, Duran would become victorious.
Why? He would had more speed of movement of hand and foot speed than at 154lbs which he was slow, fat and no movement. Duran UNDERRATED asset was his speed. And once Duran has Hearns on the inside, it is over.

Sugar Ray nor Duran would not beat a Hearns at 154lbs and beyond. 10 out of 10 times, Hearns at that weight class, will become victorious. The 154lbs class was too big for Leonard, and MUCH WORSE for Duran. Duran by KO in between 7th and 10th rounds at 147lbs and below.

[jezzamundo]

Some fighters are better suit in other weight classes. Hearns frame was perfect for the 154 lbs division. He was very strong with sturdier legs. Something that at welterweight, Hearns had fringe legs and his chin was always questionable. The same could be said for Felix "Tito" Trinidad. The 154lbs was perfect for Tito.

In the other hand, Duran at 154lbs, was fat, slow, and a stationary target. No movement. Out of his prime. Duran was technician that could fight you inside/outside with speed and movement. Speed was the most UNDERRATED asset that Duran had. That is why he beat Sugar Ray. With speed and movement. Sugar Ray was very surprised at Manos de Piedra speed and movement.

Hearns knocked out Duran because it was a guy fighting in his prime, vs out of prime. And 154lbs and beyond were weight classes TOO BIG FOR the Hands of Stone.

I think that you're way overstating the difference that the weight division makes in this matchup. I agree that 7lb does make a difference, but I think Duran's age and being past his prime is a far more important factor. That said, Duran was just coming off a very impressive losing effort against Hagler at middleweight and two knockout wins at 154lb over Pipino Cuevas and Davey Moore, which is why Hearns's win is so impressive.

I think you're also overstating how much the 7lb makes things better for Hearns. The guy went 32-0 (30 by ko) at welterweight, including his 2 round destruction of Pipino Cuevas. I certainly wouldn't consider Hearns's performance against Leonard to be an indication that he would lose to Duran, he was ahead on all three scorecards at the time of the stoppage and was boxing brilliantly.

Ultimately the proposed matchup here is the Duran who beat Leonard against the Hearns who beat Cuevas. Duran has a huge edge in big fight experience and is a lot faster and sharper than he was against Hearns in 1984. Hearns is just coming into his prime and at that point was very comfortable fighting at 147lb. I'll agree that it would be a more competitive fight, especially if Duran fights low rather than upright as he did in their actual fight. I rate Duran as a live underdog to take it into the late rounds where he would thrive, but the more likely outcome is that Hearns stops him in the early to mid rounds.

Hearns was winning the fight against Sugar Ray but he was getting also a beating in the process. Rounds 6,7 and 8 had Hearns on queer street and then, Hearns did not had anymore hard punching left. Leonard took the best shots of the Hitman and certainly, Duran had better chin than Leonard. At 147 lbs, Hearns was seem as invincible, especially, when he beat Pipino Cuevas, whom the Mexicans thought he was invincible. That was all Hearns did at welterweight. Still, one of the best at that weight class, but when it comes fighting Duran at his very best, and in his prime like in Montreal, Duran would become victorious.
Why? He would had more speed of movement of hand and foot speed than at 154lbs which he was slow, fat and no movement. Duran UNDERRATED asset was his speed. And once Duran has Hearns on the inside, it is over.

Sugar Ray nor Duran would not beat a Hearns at 154lbs and beyond. 10 out of 10 times, Hearns at that weight class, will become victorious. The 154lbs class was too big for Leonard, and MUCH WORSE for Duran. Duran by KO in between 7th and 10th rounds at 147lbs and below.

Again, you're WAY overstating the difference that the 7lb makes. To say that Hearns wins 10 times out of 10 at 154lb and Duran definitely wins at 147 is frankly ridiculous. I agree it makes a difference, but I think their age and relative proximity to their primes is a much bigger factor than the weight.

[BoxBuzz]

What happens in reality always spins the perceived "potentials" this time eccentricaly so.

However one can not argue with what took place.

I just choose to believe that it is not a prediction of what "other nights" would have produced.

In fact....I'd say the same about the Barkley- Hearns affairs as well.

But in fact......Hearns beat Duran 100% of the time....and Barkely beat Hearns 100% of the time.

Here are a few other 100% club members....

Tunney beat Dempsey 100% of the time.
Braddock beat Baer 100% of the time.
DLH beat Chavez 100% of the time
Tzyu beat Chavez 100% of the time
Chavez beat Taylor 100% of the time
Whitaker fought to a draw with Chavez 100% of the time ...now that's one of the biggest laughs of all IMHO.
Charles beat Moore 100% of the time
Mosely beat DLH 100% of the time
Trinidad beat DLH 100% of the time


It's always best to turn a blind eye to "mitigating circumstances" or suspicions of flukes. Be here now and focus on reality.