Who showed better skills in their fights with Holyfield?

[BoxBuzz]

Bowe? Lewis?

They fought quite a few rounds all told. Surely we can come to concensus on this.

[BoxBuzz]

Ok...the answer is Riddick Bowe.

Case Closed.

[dempseyfire]

Definitely Bowe, considering he beat a Holyfield in his prime, more soundly, and showed both outside and inside work. Many think Evander edged their rematch and even though Lennox deserved the decision in their first fight it was characterized more like Holyfield's overall lethargy (which combined with Lennox's timidness made for a very dull fight with many close rounds) than anything brilliant Lewis was doing.

[loaded_gloves]

I like all three a lot, but I would say the answer is obviously, clearly Bowe.

Lewis was too wary of getting hit and it made his performances quite flat. Bowe was right in there with a full arsenal of punches.

[polecateddy]

Lewis had an opportunity to stop Holyfield in the 3rd round of their first fight, but decided to play it safe. The 2nd fight was surprisingly close. Bowe displayed great skill, but of course got hit a heck of a lot more than Lewis. That's not exactly defensive skill!

[jezzamundo]

Lewis showed better defensive skills but was against an older, slower Holyfield. Bowe showed much better offensive skill and performed better against Holyfield overall.

[polecateddy]

I think the early version of Bowe could have beaten the early version of Lewis. Lewis improved considerably under Stewart though, and I think peak against peak, Lewis would have stopped Bowe. But that's off topic.

[Syntax Error]

The answer is Bowe, but it's not as straight forward as it first seems.

Bowe was better offensively whilst facing a peak Holyfield, but he shipped a lot more punishment.

On the other hand, Lewis fought an older, past-his-best Holyfield, but fought more cautiously & didn't take as much punishment as Bowe & defence is a skill in boxing too.

Bowe took more risks than Lewis, but taking risks is something that boxers are taught not to do, so bearing that in mind, maybe Lewis had the right idea.

[BoxBuzz]

Over a lifetime including doing the laundry and crossing the street.....ok ya got me....it's Lewis


But I was speaking of pure boxing skills confined to the moments they were in the ring with each other.


Any other lawyers present who require further clarification are welcome to pm me for my full disclosure document along with full liability releases.

[keithmoonhangover]

Lewis didn't lose to Holyfield or get knocked down by him.

[Rover]

Lewis didn't lose to Holyfield or get knocked down by him.

Correct. And the Holy who fought Lewis was obviously older than the Holy who'd fought Bowe, but that's also true for Lewis.

[Ambling Alp II]

Lewis was still pretty close to his prime when he fought Hholyfield. Holyfield was way past it.
Lewis should not have got the decision in the 2nd fight. It seemed like a makeup call. He did almost nothing offensively the entire fight.
Bowe could have got the decision in the 2nd fight, or atleast a draw.
Bowe did get decked against Holyfield in their 3rd fight, but overall he was in control for most of the fight.
He also stopped Holyfield, which Lewis could not do against an older Holyfield. He also decked Holyfield in their first fight when Holyfield was in his prime; Lewis could not do that against a much declined Holyfield.

Maybe the best way is to rank the 5 performances from best to worst. This is how I see it:

1. Bowe in his first fight against Holyfield.
2. Bowe in the 2nd fight against Holyfield.
3. Lewis in his first fight vs Holyfield.
4. Bowe in his 3rd fight vs Holyfield
5. Lewis in his 2nd fight vs Holyfield.

[Rover]

I thought Lewis clearly won the second Holyfield fight, and wasn't Holyfield ahead on the cards at the time of the stoppage in the third fight?
Also, I believe that Holyfield had some condition that was affecting his stamina for the third fight, hence why he fought in bursts.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not sure why you think Leweis clearly won the 2nd fight, he didn't do hardly anything except paw his his jab.
Somehow Holyfield was ahead in the scoing of the 3rd fight. He won the first round, and of course got a 10-8 round for scoring a knockdown in round 6. Bowe also got a point dedcuted for a low blow. Still the scoring is baffling. Bowe should have been up 66-64, not down 66-65. The rounds were very easy to score.

Holyfield supposedly have something wrong with him, exactly what escapes me right now. Who knows, fighter always have their excuses, but it may have been legit. Regardless, Holyfield looked better in that fight than in the first Lewis fight. He didn't even fight in bursts in that fight. In the 2nd Lewis fight, he only fought in bursts but that should have been enough since Lewis wasn't doing anything.

I rank Lewis higher than Bowe for their career. However, I don't see how anybody can think Lewis looked better in his fights vs Holyfield than Bowe did vs Holyfield.

[dempseyfire]

Not sure why you think Leweis clearly won the 2nd fight, he didn't do hardly anything except paw his his jab.
Somehow Holyfield was ahead in the scoing of the 3rd fight. He won the first round, and of course got a 10-8 round for scoring a knockdown in round 6. Bowe also got a point dedcuted for a low blow. Still the scoring is baffling. Bowe should have been up 66-64, not down 66-65. The rounds were very easy to score.

Holyfield supposedly have something wrong with him, exactly what escapes me right now. Who knows, fighter always have their excuses, but it may have been legit. Regardless, Holyfield looked better in that fight than in the first Lewis fight. He didn't even fight in bursts in that fight. In the 2nd Lewis fight, he only fought in bursts but that should have been enough since Lewis wasn't doing anything.

I rank Lewis higher than Bowe for their career. However, I don't see how anybody can think Lewis looked better in his fights vs Holyfield than Bowe did vs Holyfield.

Holyfield was suffering from Hepatitis in the rubber match, but no way was he ahead at the time he got stopped; Evander only won the 1st and the round he scored the KD in . .every other round Bowe won clearly.

Yes Lewis had better defense than Bowe and got hit less but one also has to factor in Evander's work-rate/punch output in 1992-93 compared to 1999. Easy to not get hit a lot vs a fighter not throwing a lot.

[Rover]

@AmblingAlp
You mean 66-65?
Either way, it was a one-point fight.
And yes, Lewis clearly won the second fight. Holyfield was older than when he'd fought Bowe, but the same is true for Lewis (older than the version at the time Bowe fought Holyfield).
I've never seen another thread asking who showed better skills in comparison of common opponents.
But I guess that's the last resort when one fighter has a loss to the common opponent.

[BoxBuzz]

Rover, it's not an untried premise to use a common denominator as a basis for comparisons.

There seems to be a lot of processing going on regarding the skillsets of Lewis vs Bowe at their best.

This just seemed another way to perhaps stir the pot of discussion.

However some folks do prefer to light their pot as their basis of reflection.

[Rover]

Rover, it's not an untried premise to use a common denominator as a basis for comparisons.

There seems to be a lot of processing going on regarding the skillsets of Lewis vs Bowe at their best.

This just seemed another way to perhaps stir the pot of discussion.

However some folks do prefer to light their pot as their basis of reflection.

The main dispute over Lewis/Bowe seems to me to have been who'd have won in 1993. That's when they were supposed to have fought. I wouldn't call 1999 Lewis the Lewis at his best.

[BoxBuzz]

Nor would I. Just attempting to serve up some viewable data in order to postulate.

At their best if you throw out the possible psyche aspects, I just thing Bowe would pose a nightmare scenario for Lewis.

It's best for Lewis that this never happened.

The only loose cannon in the debate for some is....was Bowe psyched out by Lewis in any way.

I don't think Bowe had a complex enough persona to be "psyched" so I discount the possibility.

[hhaehre]

If we are talking excitement then Bowe every time. If we are talking skills, I should have thought the answer is obvious.

One is punch drunk, with thick slurred speech ( in fact two are if we count Evander ) the other isn't.

I'll just stick with this.

Yes, because no skilled defensive fighter was ever hurt in the ring. I wouldn't be surprised if Lennox is enjoying a game of chess with Wilfredo Benitez as I write this.

[Ambling Alp II]

@AmblingAlp
You mean 66-65?
Either way, it was a one-point fight.
And yes, Lewis clearly won the second fight. Holyfield was older than when he'd fought Bowe, but the same is true for Lewis (older than the version at the time Bowe fought Holyfield).
I've never seen another thread asking who showed better skills in comparison of common opponents.
But I guess that's the last resort when one fighter has a loss to the common opponent.

No, I mean Bowe should have been up 66-64. The rounds were very easy to score. They should have been
1. Bowe 9, holyfield 10
2. Bowe 10, Holyfield 9
3. Bowe 10, Holyfield 9
4. Bowe 10 Holyfield 9
5. Bowe 9 Holyfield 9 (Bowe would have won the round, but was deducted a point for a low blow.)
6. Bowe 8, Holyfield 10 (Bowe knocked down)
7. Bowe 10, Holyfield 8 (holyfield knocked down.)
That adds up to 66-64 for Bowe. Each round was very easy to score.

Again, compelete disagree that Lewis clearly won 2nd holuyfied fight.Lewis did almost nothing offensivley.

As for the ages, take a look at them:

Bowe was 24 for first fight Holyfield was still just 30 and still in his prime. 30 is still usually in your prime, especially for a heavyweight.
2nd fight, Bowe was 25, Holyfield was still just 31.
That is not a significant advantage at all for Bowe.
3rd fight Bowe did have an advantage as Holyfield was starting to get old while Bowe should still have been in his prime.

Look at the two Lewis-Holyfield fights:
Lewis was 33, Holyfield 36 for their first fight. 33 is getting old, 36 is old. That is a significant advantage for Lewis. Lewis was 34, while Holyfield was 37 for their 2nd fight.
Almost every fighter is better at 33 than when they are 36. This is are crucial period when fighters age. Most heavyweights (unless there are unusual circumstances) are about the same at 30 as they are when they are 24.

Bowe fought Holyfield on even terms in their first two fights. Lewis had an significant advantage when he fought Holyfield.

Yes Bowe lost to Holyfield, and Lewis didn't. You have to look at the circumstances. Bowe lost a close decision against a great opponent, that certainly could have gone his way, in a great fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Lewis pretty clearly got better with age. I scored the rematch with Evander recently and I had it 115-114 Lennox. It was definitely close.

Bowe in the first Evander fight was as offensively skilled as any heavyweight that I've ever seen. I don't think Lennox could have beaten either of them that night.

So Bowe is the easy answer here. As easy as Lennox over him from a career stand point

[BoxBuzz]

Saad I agree.


I'll go with an aviational comparison here.


One was arguably the more effective warplane at it's peak but barely made it back to base intact, and was in pieces before being melted down for spare parts.

However.....one filed a much more effective flight plan and after turning in a worthy record and being decommissioned actually arrived to it's final destination intact and with little battle wear. This plane will likely be shown off and remembered at future air shows.

[Rover]

@AmblingAlp
You mean 66-65?
Either way, it was a one-point fight.
And yes, Lewis clearly won the second fight. Holyfield was older than when he'd fought Bowe, but the same is true for Lewis (older than the version at the time Bowe fought Holyfield).
I've never seen another thread asking who showed better skills in comparison of common opponents.
But I guess that's the last resort when one fighter has a loss to the common opponent.

No, I mean Bowe should have been up 66-64. The rounds were very easy to score. They should have been
1. Bowe 9, holyfield 10
2. Bowe 10, Holyfield 9
3. Bowe 10, Holyfield 9
4. Bowe 10 Holyfield 9
5. Bowe 9 Holyfield 9 (Bowe would have won the round, but was deducted a point for a low blow.)
6. Bowe 8, Holyfield 10 (Bowe knocked down)
7. Bowe 10, Holyfield 8 (holyfield knocked down.)
That adds up to 66-64 for Bowe. Each round was very easy to score.

Again, compelete disagree that Lewis clearly won 2nd holuyfied fight.Lewis did almost nothing offensivley.

As for the ages, take a look at them:

Bowe was 24 for first fight Holyfield was still just 30 and still in his prime. 30 is still usually in your prime, especially for a heavyweight.
2nd fight, Bowe was 25, Holyfield was still just 31.
That is not a significant advantage at all for Bowe.
3rd fight Bowe did have an advantage as Holyfield was starting to get old while Bowe should still have been in his prime.

Look at the two Lewis-Holyfield fights:
Lewis was 33, Holyfield 36 for their first fight. 33 is getting old, 36 is old. That is a significant advantage for Lewis. Lewis was 34, while Holyfield was 37 for their 2nd fight.
Almost every fighter is better at 33 than when they are 36. This is are crucial period when fighters age. Most heavyweights (unless there are unusual circumstances) are about the same at 30 as they are when they are 24.

Bowe fought Holyfield on even terms in their first two fights. Lewis had an significant advantage when he fought Holyfield.

Yes Bowe lost to Holyfield, and Lewis didn't. You have to look at the circumstances. Bowe lost a close decision against a great opponent, that certainly could have gone his way, in a great fight.

You're making age generalizations which I don't subscribe to as they're too generalized.

[hhaehre]

I'll just stick with this.

Yes, because no skilled defensive fighter was ever hurt in the ring. I wouldn't be surprised if Lennox is enjoying a game of chess with Wilfredo Benitez as I write this.

Your not seriously trying to claim that Lewis and Benitez took similar amounts of punishment during their respective careers are you?

I'm suggesting that any professional fighter with the number of fights that Lewis had, has taken enough punishment in fights (amateur and pro) as well as in sparring to incur brain damage if the fighter is predisposed for it. To measure a fighter based on his condition after his fighting years is retarded.