Danny Green ??

[Sweet P]

The Champion makes the belt. Not the other way around.

[ra2006]

Its a shitty title but he is the IBO champ.

Agreed, and it is better than nothing. The one thing that annoys me over here is that the media in Aus regard it as a actual world title. It really bugs me, and you want to wind me up on this board ( and I always bite!!), refer to the IBOllox title as a world title!! And if you say 'well Wladimar holds it' that makes me bite even more!!!!

The only thing I would like to see the main bodies doing is to copy the ranking system that the IBOllox has, that is very clever and very sensible!! But it does'nt make it a proper world title!!

So who do you think the proper world champions are, and what belts if any do they hold and why do they have more of a hold to being the real world champ than Danny....not arguing with but would like to see your rationale behind the statement you made. I look at danny and think he could match it with any champ out there. he holds a belt, so why isnt it legit ??

Grey area as everyones opinion of a world champion differs. If you would like my opinion, just look at the state of play on the Light Heavies.

I look at Nathan Cleveley who holds the WBO version, does that make him a world champion? Yes, he holds a belt and it there in black and white he is world champion, but is he? In my eyes he is not a world champion!! He has'nt fought anyone of note and has'nt earnt the right to be called WC!!

I look at Bernard Hopkins who holds the IBF version, some reasoning to whether he is a world champion, as he holds a belt. In my eyes he is a world champion because he has actively gone out and fought the best, with or without a belt on the line and won.

Look at Ricky Hatton, he at one time only held the IBOllox version of the Light welter. Even though the IBOllox is a shitty belt and not a world championship, he was the world champion at the time in my books because he was at the time the best in the division.

Daniel Geale, IBF MW holder but is a WC in my eyes, went over and fought one of the best in the division, won it and earnt a WC. He is a world champion in my eyes!!

Lots of grey amwsnw. But that is just my opinion on the matter.

['Frilla]

The Champion makes the belt. Not the other way around.

Exactly.

[crusader]

I look at danny and think he could match it with any champ out there. he holds a belt, so why isnt it legit ??

Danny fought arguably the worst of the big four beltholders (Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, Wlod, and Afolabi if you count interim titles), and he was stopped heavily. I don't think he's on the same level as the division's major belt holders, though he could be competitive with them.

The Champion makes the belt. Not the other way around

Then the IBO has a greater proportion of champions who've failed to make their belt than each of the WBO, WBC, IBF, and WBA do.

Danny hasn't 'made' the belt by defeating top opponents to get it, or by successfully defending it against top opponents, or by recently defeating top opponents in non-title bouts. He first won the IBO cruiserweight title against a poor and undersized opponent in Julio Cesar Dominguez, and defended it one time against a top 20 cruiserweight. He was then outclassed and stopped by a career light heavyweight (Tarver) who had seen better days and failed to win his next fight. Green, coming off a bad loss, then got a shot against the holder of a major title, and despite looking good at times, was heavily stopped. His wins since have come against an undersized and past-prime version of a fighter who was never very good (Santiago) and a fringe-contender (Cameron).

So, even if the champion makes the belt, I don't see how Green has made his belt as credible as Huck, Wlod, Lebedev, and Afolabi have made their belts. He's been stopped by most of the top cruiserweights he's fought, he's defended the title mainly against undersized opponents better suited for light heavyweight, and his 'better' wins were against fringe-contenders who have never fought a top 20 cruiserweight apart from him.

For those reasons, I don't see Danny as a legitimate cruiserweight champion, and at this point he's arguably not a top ten cruiserweight.

[Hounddawg]

Green is a top 10 cruiser, ridiculous to say otherwise.
Its Hernedez, not Ofalobi that owns a belt and can at this stage claim the crown.
Wlod the weakest, not so sure about that, what would u base that on?

U use terms like career lt heavy, and small cruisers, yet we fail to mention that Green is one of the smallest cruisers in the world.

[D J Pawsey]

I look at danny and think he could match it with any champ out there. he holds a belt, so why isnt it legit ??

Danny fought arguably the worst of the big four beltholders (Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, Wlod, and Afolabi if you count interim titles), and he was stopped heavily. I don't think he's on the same level as the division's major belt holders, though he could be competitive with them.

The Champion makes the belt. Not the other way around

Then the IBO has a greater proportion of champions who've failed to make their belt than each of the WBO, WBC, IBF, and WBA do.

Danny hasn't 'made' the belt by defeating top opponents to get it, or by successfully defending it against top opponents, or by recently defeating top opponents in non-title bouts. He first won the IBO cruiserweight title against a poor and undersized opponent in Julio Cesar Dominguez, and defended it one time against a top 20 cruiserweight. He was then outclassed and stopped by a career light heavyweight (Tarver) who had seen better days and failed to win his next fight. Green, coming off a bad loss, then got a shot against the holder of a major title, and despite looking good at times, was heavily stopped. His wins since have come against an undersized and past-prime version of a fighter who was never very good (Santiago) and a fringe-contender (Cameron).

So, even if the champion makes the belt, I don't see how Green has made his belt as credible as Huck, Wlod, Lebedev, and Afolabi have made their belts. He's been stopped by most of the top cruiserweights he's fought, he's defended the title mainly against undersized opponents better suited for light heavyweight, and his 'better' wins were against fringe-contenders who have never fought a top 20 cruiserweight apart from him.

For those reasons, I don't see Danny as a legitimate cruiserweight champion, and at this point he's arguably not a top ten cruiserweight.

Good post

[polecateddy]

I look at danny and think he could match it with any champ out there. he holds a belt, so why isnt it legit ??

Danny fought arguably the worst of the big four beltholders (Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, Wlod, and Afolabi if you count interim titles), and he was stopped heavily. I don't think he's on the same level as the division's major belt holders, though he could be competitive with them.

The Champion makes the belt. Not the other way around

Then the IBO has a greater proportion of champions who've failed to make their belt than each of the WBO, WBC, IBF, and WBA do.

Danny hasn't 'made' the belt by defeating top opponents to get it, or by successfully defending it against top opponents, or by recently defeating top opponents in non-title bouts. He first won the IBO cruiserweight title against a poor and undersized opponent in Julio Cesar Dominguez, and defended it one time against a top 20 cruiserweight. He was then outclassed and stopped by a career light heavyweight (Tarver) who had seen better days and failed to win his next fight. Green, coming off a bad loss, then got a shot against the holder of a major title, and despite looking good at times, was heavily stopped. His wins since have come against an undersized and past-prime version of a fighter who was never very good (Santiago) and a fringe-contender (Cameron).

So, even if the champion makes the belt, I don't see how Green has made his belt as credible as Huck, Wlod, Lebedev, and Afolabi have made their belts. He's been stopped by most of the top cruiserweights he's fought, he's defended the title mainly against undersized opponents better suited for light heavyweight, and his 'better' wins were against fringe-contenders who have never fought a top 20 cruiserweight apart from him.

For those reasons, I don't see Danny as a legitimate cruiserweight champion, and at this point he's arguably not a top ten cruiserweight.

Good post

He's obviously not a real contender for proper cruiser titles, but appears popular enough that he can get well paid for fighting faded names and limited local opponents, like Cameron. A nice position for any boxer to be in.

[thunderfromdownunder]

Don't upset the green fans, they can get pretty nasty
I like green, but he's not a top yen cruiser anymore, it's actually debatable that he ever was

[polecateddy]

Don't upset the green fans, they can get pretty nasty
I like green, but he's not a top yen cruiser anymore, it's actually debatable that he ever was

To be fair he's good for 8 rounds, but tends to fall apart under late pressure. Best money, least risk fight for him would be say James Toney or someone of that ilk.

[crusader]

U use terms like career lt heavy, and small cruisers, yet we fail to mention that Green is one of the smallest cruisers in the world.

Since Green is being assessed as a cruiserweight champion, it's irrelevant that he's undersized like many of his opponents; it just suggests that one of his limitations (size) has possibly led to him fighting similarly limited opponents, which doesn't reflect well on his cruiserweight title reigns.

Wlod the weakest, not so sure about that, what would u base that on?

My claim about Wlod is based on his recent bunch of unimpressive performances, including his dismal showings against the mediocre Jason Robinsion and fringe-contender Franciso Palacios, the latter a victim of a hometown decision in Wlod's favor. Huck, Hernandez, Lebedev, and Afolabi haven't struggled with opponents of that level for years, and they all have better recent performances in my opinion; Hernandez has two wins over Cunningham and nearly stopped him both times, a dominant stoppage of Herelius, and a fairly rendered decision over Ross; Huck has a long string of title defenses over top 10/15 opponents; Lebedev destroyed Alekseev and several top 25/30 cruiserweights, and many people thought he deserved to win against Huck; and Afolabi fought close to evenly with Huck, heavily stopped Enzo when that still meant something, and easily stopped a solid fighter in Brudov.

Maybe Wlod isn't the worst of the major title holders, but I think a good case can be made that he is, and I think the chances of him losing his next fight are very high if it is against Rakhim Chakhkiev, as rumored.

Green is a top 10 cruiser, ridiculous to say otherwise.

Below is a hypothetical top ten without Green; which of the listed fighters should unarguably be lower than him and why? I think it's reasonable to have Green in the top ten, but I don't see how it's 'ridiculous' to exclude him given the heavy stoppage defeats he recently suffered and his lack of wins over top cruiserweights.

1. Huck
2. Hernandez
3. Lebedev
4. Afolabi
5. Wlod
6. Ross
7. Tarver
8. Masternak
9. Kayode
10. Alekseev/Arslan/Kucher

[polecateddy]

U use terms like career lt heavy, and small cruisers, yet we fail to mention that Green is one of the smallest cruisers in the world.

Since Green is being assessed as a cruiserweight champion, it's irrelevant that he's undersized like many of his opponents; it just suggests that one of his limitations (size) has possibly led to him fighting similarly limited opponents, which doesn't reflect well on his cruiserweight title reigns.

Wlod the weakest, not so sure about that, what would u base that on?

My claim about Wlod is based on his recent bunch of unimpressive performances, including his dismal showings against the mediocre Jason Robinsion and fringe-contender Franciso Palacios, the latter a victim of a hometown decision in Wlod's favor. Huck, Hernandez, Lebedev, and Afolabi haven't struggled with opponents of that level for years, and they all have better recent performances in my opinion; Hernandez has two wins over Cunningham and nearly stopped him both times, a dominant stoppage of Herelius, and a fairly rendered decision over Ross; Huck has a long string of title defenses over top 10/15 opponents; Lebedev destroyed Alekseev and several top 25/30 cruiserweights, and many people thought he deserved to win against Huck; and Afolabi fought close to evenly with Huck, heavily stopped Enzo when that still meant something, and easily stopped a solid fighter in Brudov.

Maybe Wlod isn't the worst of the major title holders, but I think a good case can be made that he is, and I think the chances of him losing his next fight are very high if it is against Rakhim Chakhkiev, as rumored.

Green is a top 10 cruiser, ridiculous to say otherwise.

Below is a hypothetical top ten without Green; which of the listed fighters should unarguably be lower than him and why? I think it's reasonable to have Green in the top ten, but I don't see how it's 'ridiculous' to exclude him given the heavy stoppage defeats he recently suffered and his lack of wins over top cruiserweights.

1. Huck
2. Hernandez
3. Lebedev
4. Afolabi
5. Wlod
6. Ross
7. Tarver
8. Masternak
9. Kayode
10. Alekseev/Arslan/Kucher

That shut him up. Green wouldn't beat any of those.

[amwsnw]

Good posts lads. hard to argue with any of it. I agree with SweetP, regardless of what letters are attached to it the belt holder makes the belt....I rate Wlod very highly and so rate Green highly considering the lesson he was giving Wlod until he got POLE AXED...my opinion.

[Hounddawg]

U use terms like career lt heavy, and small cruisers, yet we fail to mention that Green is one of the smallest cruisers in the world.

Since Green is being assessed as a cruiserweight champion, it's irrelevant that he's undersized like many of his opponents; it just suggests that one of his limitations (size) has possibly led to him fighting similarly limited opponents, which doesn't reflect well on his cruiserweight title reigns.

Wlod the weakest, not so sure about that, what would u base that on?

My claim about Wlod is based on his recent bunch of unimpressive performances, including his dismal showings against the mediocre Jason Robinsion and fringe-contender Franciso Palacios, the latter a victim of a hometown decision in Wlod's favor. Huck, Hernandez, Lebedev, and Afolabi haven't struggled with opponents of that level for years, and they all have better recent performances in my opinion; Hernandez has two wins over Cunningham and nearly stopped him both times, a dominant stoppage of Herelius, and a fairly rendered decision over Ross; Huck has a long string of title defenses over top 10/15 opponents; Lebedev destroyed Alekseev and several top 25/30 cruiserweights, and many people thought he deserved to win against Huck; and Afolabi fought close to evenly with Huck, heavily stopped Enzo when that still meant something, and easily stopped a solid fighter in Brudov.

Maybe Wlod isn't the worst of the major title holders, but I think a good case can be made that he is, and I think the chances of him losing his next fight are very high if it is against Rakhim Chakhkiev, as rumored.

Green is a top 10 cruiser, ridiculous to say otherwise.

Below is a hypothetical top ten without Green; which of the listed fighters should unarguably be lower than him and why? I think it's reasonable to have Green in the top ten, but I don't see how it's 'ridiculous' to exclude him given the heavy stoppage defeats he recently suffered and his lack of wins over top cruiserweights.

1. Huck
2. Hernandez
3. Lebedev
4. Afolabi
5. Wlod
6. Ross
7. Tarver
8. Masternak
9. Kayode
10. Alekseev/Arslan/Kucher

That shut him up. Green wouldn't beat any of those.

Why would i need shutting up, it's one mans opinion against another, we need to be fair in assessing what we put down when giving an opinion.

For starters, Wlod holds a win over Cunningham, Fragomeni and Palacious as well as other fairly decent opposition compared to Ofalobi and Lebedev, Lebedev has taken the same path as Green, yet this is somehow over looked, given Green at least comes close to the age of the legends he's been in with. As yet Kayode and Masternak have done nothing to get thier 8 or 9 position outside of an unbeaten record. Cameron has far more creedance and i'll even throw in Flores, to lay claim to that top 10 list, as i believe both have fought superior comp. Kayode fought a fat out of shape Tarver, Green fought the best looking Tarver since 2007, and was in my opinion heavily juicing( my opinion only).

I mean besides the draw, who the hell has Ofalobi beaten...can he box, absolutely! has he beaten anyone of note....NO!
Masternak, looks good, but who the hell has he beaten?

It's all just one man's opinion of course, but as someone said, he was schooling the current WBC title holder, and that should count for something. Don't forget that Green also entered that fight with a busted eye.

There's no flag waiving here, it's just clear that he is a top 10 fighter until at least 3 or 4 of those guys listed above do more than what they have, until then give the man the respect he deserves.

[thunderfromdownunder]

Aside from Flores (who has beaten no one either!) who has green beaten at cruiserweight?

[Hounddawg]

Mate, it doesn't matter, the fact that you've mentioned Flores, is all that i need to prove my point until Alexseev, Masturnak or Kayode step up. Which makes Green currently top 10 material.

[Giancarlo]

[polecateddy]

Mate, it doesn't matter, the fact that you've mentioned Flores, is all that i need to prove my point until Alexseev, Masturnak or Kayode step up. Which makes Green currently top 10 material.

Kayode drew with Tarver, who smashed Green. I'm not seeing much logic here! Lol Granted I've never heard of Masturnak.

[crusader]

This is a very long post (though it would probably take only a few minutes to read), but I want to be detailed. I find that Green is a sacrosanct figure to many who post in this sub-section of the forum, and consequently he's generally overrated as a fighter here; this is a good opportunity to express why I don't think Green merits such a favorable opinion.

For starters, Wlod holds a win over Cunningham, Fragomeni and Palacious as well as other fairly decent opposition compared to Ofalobi and Lebedev

Wlod's wins against Cunningham and Fragomeni came years ago, and I don't think they reflect his current ability, as he recently struggled in several fights against poor or unproven opponents. Entering his bout with Wlod, Jason Robinson had been outclassed by all but one of the decent opponents he faced, he had recently been dropped by a journeyman, his career-best win was over Johnny McClain, and he had fought 4 times in 6 years. Robinson should've been an easy opponent for a top cruiserweight--Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, and Afolabi haven't struggled with such opponents since making it near the top of the division--but Wlod lost several rounds, never came close to stopping Robinson, and looked very poor.

Then, in Wlod's next fight, he plodded around, did little of note, and was fortunate to get a hometown decision against Palacios. It's convenient to depict Palacios as a top cruiserweight, but he's not. He got a shot at Wlod despite having a very padded record, with his best opponents arguably being journeyman Zack Page and very post-prime Louis Azille. Conversely, each of Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, and Afolabi defeated or fought evenly with several opponents who were then either world class, fringe-world class, or European class, such as, respectively, Povetkin, Lebedev, Ramirez, Tokarev, Munrose, and Russal; Huck, Alekseev, Maccarinelli, Isamilov, and Silgado; Cunningham, Ross, Herelius, Licina, and Williams; and Huck, Maccarinelli, Brudov, and Fields. Each of the fighters I listed are at least as accomplished as Palacios is, and most of them are more accomplished than he is, so it's not true that he is a good opponent compared to who the other titlists have fought. Those titlists also didn't have major problems beating any of their recent opponents with comparable resumes to Palacios's.

The other major titlists have had some problems, though. Huck struggled with 41 year old Firat Arslan, Hernandez was dropped heavily by Troy Ross, Lebedev was out boxed at times by Silgado and Jones, and Afolabi looked unimpressive in beating a journeyman. However, none of them struggled to the extent that Wlod did against Palacios, and none of them struggled significantly with opponents as bad as Robinson. I also think they've looked better against high-level opponents than Wlod has, and consequently I think there is a strong basis for claiming that Wlod is currently the worst of the major titlists.

Lebedev has taken the same path as Green, yet this is somehow over looked, given Green at least comes close to the age of the legends he's been in with.

Lebedev has taken a similar path to Green's, but the former hasn't been heavily stopped twice while the latter has. Most people also thought that Lebedev deserved to win against Huck, which cannot be said for Danny's fight with Wlod, and Lebedev annihilated Alekseev, whose resume is no worse than Flores's and Cameron's are. That Green is closer in age to his opponents than Lebedev is to his opponents doesn't affect the ability or resume of those opponents, so it's irrelevant to my rankings.

As yet Kayode and Masternak have done nothing to get thier 8 or 9 position outside of an unbeaten record. Cameron has far more creedance and i'll even throw in Flores, to lay claim to that top 10 list, as i believe both have fought superior comp. Kayode fought a fat out of shape Tarver, Green fought the best looking Tarver since 2007, and was in my opinion heavily juicing( my opinion only).

Kayode drew with Tarver, and did enough to make a strong case that he beat Tarver. He also has wins over top 50 type opponents, such as Matt Godfrey. Green has better wins than Kayode does, but he was outclassed, punished, and stopped by Tarver a year before, and he was heavily stopped in his next fight. Given that Green has been stopped in two of his last four bouts, given that Kayode drew with one of the fighters who stopped Green, and given that Kayode's overall resume isn't terribly weak, I think there's a good case for now ranking him ahead of Green.

You say that Flores and Cameron have fought better competition than Kayode has, but I disagree. Flores and Kayode have fought the same level of opposition, sharing several opponents such as Ianzuzzi, Mendoza, Herrera, but Kayode did significantly better against Tarver than Flores did against Green. Cameron's wins have come almost exclusively against domestic level opponents like Amman, McCracken, and Vea, who collectively are on a similar level to opponents Kayode opponents such as Ianzuzzi, Herrera, and Godfrey. Cameron's best win was arguably over Barrett, but a draw with Tarver is no less impressive than a win over Barrett, and Cameron's credibility should not be enhanced by his blowout loss to Tua.

Masternak, looks good, but who the hell has he beaten?

Masternak has beaten many top 30-70 opponents, usually convincingly. He doesn't have a stellar resume and Green clearly has better wins, but since Green's been stopped twice in his last four fights and Santiago is no better than some of Masternak's recent opponents, such as Haapoja, I think it's fair to rank Masterak ahead of Green based on recent results.

I mean besides the draw, who the hell has Ofalobi beaten...can he box, absolutely! has he beaten anyone of note....NO!

Afolabi has beaten Maccrinelli, Brudov, and Fields, which is comparable to Green's cruiserweight wins. Moreover, Afolabi hasn't been stopped in two of his last four fights, and he fought an elite cruiserweight--Huck--to a draw, while Green was stopped by Wlod, the only opponent he faced who was arguably an elite cruiserweight at the time. So, I don't see why it would be a poor decision to rank Afolabi ahead of Green.

he was schooling the current WBC title holder, and that should count for something. Don't forget that Green also entered that fight with a busted eye.

I disagree that Green schooled Wlod. I thought Wlod held his own in most of the rounds and won up to four rounds; the official judges were fair in giving him 4 rounds and 3 rounds twice, although one of the latter two cards had him losing the tenth, a round which he dominated. Green deserves some credit for generally doing well, just as Afolabi deserves credit for drawing with Huck rather than beating Huck, but the amount of credit I give Green is considerably limited by him getting worn down and heavily stopped.

As for the eye, I don't think it should mitigate Green's loss. Many fighters enter bout with an ailment, a black eye is a minor ailment, Green's eye looked fine by fight time, and it's very unlikely that a nearly healed black eye would significantly impair a fighter's performance.

[polecateddy]

This is a very long post (though it would probably take only a few minutes to read), but I want to be detailed. I find that Green is a sacrosanct figure to many who post in this sub-section of the forum, and consequently he's generally overrated as a fighter here; this is a good opportunity to express why I don't think Green merits such a favorable opinion.

For starters, Wlod holds a win over Cunningham, Fragomeni and Palacious as well as other fairly decent opposition compared to Ofalobi and Lebedev

Wlod's wins against Cunningham and Fragomeni came years ago, and I don't think they reflect his current ability, as he recently struggled in several fights against poor or unproven opponents. Entering his bout with Wlod, Jason Robinson had been outclassed by all but one of the decent opponents he faced, he had recently been dropped by a journeyman, his career-best win was over Johnny McClain, and he had fought 4 times in 6 years. Robinson should've been an easy opponent for a top cruiserweight--Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, and Afolabi haven't struggled with such opponents since making it near the top of the division--but Wlod lost several rounds, never came close to stopping Robinson, and looked very poor.

Then, in Wlod's next fight, he plodded around, did little of note, and was fortunate to get a hometown decision against Palacios. It's convenient to depict Palacios as a top cruiserweight, but he's not. He got a shot at Wlod despite having a very padded record, with his best opponents arguably being journeyman Zack Page and very post-prime Louis Azille. Conversely, each of Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, and Afolabi defeated or fought evenly with several opponents who were then either world class, fringe-world class, or European class, such as, respectively, Povetkin, Lebedev, Ramirez, Tokarev, Munrose, and Russal; Huck, Alekseev, Maccarinelli, Isamilov, and Silgado; Cunningham, Ross, Herelius, Licina, and Williams; and Huck, Maccarinelli, Brudov, and Fields. Each of the fighters I listed are at least as accomplished as Palacios is, and most of them are more accomplished than he is, so it's not true that he is a good opponent compared to who the other titlists have fought. Those titlists also didn't have major problems beating any of their recent opponents with comparable resumes to Palacios's.

The other major titlists have had some problems, though. Huck struggled with 41 year old Firat Arslan, Hernandez was dropped heavily by Troy Ross, Lebedev was out boxed at times by Silgado and Jones, and Afolabi looked unimpressive in beating a journeyman. However, none of them struggled to the extent that Wlod did against Palacios, and none of them struggled significantly with opponents as bad as Robinson. I also think they've looked better against high-level opponents than Wlod has, and consequently I think there is a strong basis for claiming that Wlod is currently the worst of the major titlists.

Lebedev has taken the same path as Green, yet this is somehow over looked, given Green at least comes close to the age of the legends he's been in with.

Lebedev has taken a similar path to Green's, but the former hasn't been heavily stopped twice while the latter has. Most people also thought that Lebedev deserved to win against Huck, which cannot be said for Danny's fight with Wlod, and Lebedev annihilated Alekseev, whose resume is no worse than Flores's and Cameron's are. That Green is closer in age to his opponents than Lebedev is to his opponents doesn't affect the ability or resume of those opponents, so it's irrelevant to my rankings.

As yet Kayode and Masternak have done nothing to get thier 8 or 9 position outside of an unbeaten record. Cameron has far more creedance and i'll even throw in Flores, to lay claim to that top 10 list, as i believe both have fought superior comp. Kayode fought a fat out of shape Tarver, Green fought the best looking Tarver since 2007, and was in my opinion heavily juicing( my opinion only).

Kayode drew with Tarver, and did enough to make a strong case that he beat Tarver. He also has wins over top 50 type opponents, such as Matt Godfrey. Green has better wins than Kayode does, but he was outclassed, punished, and stopped by Tarver a year before, and he was heavily stopped in his next fight. Given that Green has been stopped in two of his last four bouts, given that Kayode drew with one of the fighters who stopped Green, and given that Kayode's overall resume isn't terribly weak, I think there's a good case for now ranking him ahead of Green.

You say that Flores and Cameron have fought better competition than Kayode has, but I disagree. Flores and Kayode have fought the same level of opposition, sharing several opponents such as Ianzuzzi, Mendoza, Herrera, but Kayode did significantly better against Tarver than Flores did against Green. Cameron's wins have come almost exclusively against domestic level opponents like Amman, McCracken, and Vea, who collectively are on a similar level to opponents Kayode opponents such as Ianzuzzi, Herrera, and Godfrey. Cameron's best win was arguably over Barrett, but a draw with Tarver is no less impressive than a win over Barrett, and Cameron's credibility should not be enhanced by his blowout loss to Tua.

Masternak, looks good, but who the hell has he beaten?

Masternak has beaten many top 30-70 opponents, usually convincingly. He doesn't have a stellar resume and Green clearly has better wins, but since Green's been stopped twice in his last four fights and Santiago is no better than some of Masternak's recent opponents, such as Haapoja, I think it's fair to rank Masterak ahead of Green based on recent results.

I mean besides the draw, who the hell has Ofalobi beaten...can he box, absolutely! has he beaten anyone of note....NO!

Afolabi has beaten Maccrinelli, Brudov, and Fields, which is comparable to Green's cruiserweight wins. Moreover, Afolabi hasn't been stopped in two of his last four fights, and he fought an elite cruiserweight--Huck--to a draw, while Green was stopped by Wlod, the only opponent he faced who was arguably an elite cruiserweight at the time. So, I don't see why it would be a poor decision to rank Afolabi ahead of Green.

he was schooling the current WBC title holder, and that should count for something. Don't forget that Green also entered that fight with a busted eye.

I disagree that Green schooled Wlod. I thought Wlod held his own in most of the rounds and won up to four rounds; the official judges were fair in giving him 4 rounds and 3 rounds twice, although one of the latter two cards had him losing the tenth, a round which he dominated. Green deserves some credit for generally doing well, just as Afolabi deserves credit for drawing with Huck rather than beating Huck, but the amount of credit I give Green is considerably limited by him getting worn down and heavily stopped.

As for the eye, I don't think it should mitigate Green's loss. Many fighters enter bout with an ailment, a black eye is a minor ailment, Green's eye looked fine by fight time, and it's very unlikely that a nearly healed black eye would significantly impair a fighter's performance.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said! Lol

[buster007]

sry, but not gunna read it either.

[Stinger]

It is so refreshing to see good discussion and debate about boxing in here without all the personal attacks. Good stuff lads!

As for Green's announcement, sadly, it looks to be an announcement regarding a side project, rather then an opponent.

[Hounddawg]

This is a very long post (though it would probably take only a few minutes to read), but I want to be detailed. I find that Green is a sacrosanct figure to many who post in this sub-section of the forum, and consequently he's generally overrated as a fighter here; this is a good opportunity to express why I don't think Green merits such a favorable opinion.

For starters, Wlod holds a win over Cunningham, Fragomeni and Palacious as well as other fairly decent opposition compared to Ofalobi and Lebedev

Wlod's wins against Cunningham and Fragomeni came years ago, and I don't think they reflect his current ability, as he recently struggled in several fights against poor or unproven opponents. Entering his bout with Wlod, Jason Robinson had been outclassed by all but one of the decent opponents he faced, he had recently been dropped by a journeyman, his career-best win was over Johnny McClain, and he had fought 4 times in 6 years. Robinson should've been an easy opponent for a top cruiserweight--Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, and Afolabi haven't struggled with such opponents since making it near the top of the division--but Wlod lost several rounds, never came close to stopping Robinson, and looked very poor.

Hounddawg wrote
So this whole Wlod being the weakest is based on Jason Robinson's fight and other titlists have looked better against similar opposition?? Wlod's resume is as good as any, i don't gauge a fighter on 1 or even 2 performances, some fighters don't lift for those fights, did you happen to catch the 2nd fight? Lebedev, who has beaten Alexseev who can fight, he just can't take a punch, and a even more shop worn RJJ than the the one that Green took all of 86 seconds to stop, gets a pass, because he looked good? Fair enough i guess. Don't agree, however i can see how you aplying logic to your reasoning, i wouldn't listen to a tip based on that though

Then, in Wlod's next fight, he plodded around, did little of note, and was fortunate to get a hometown decision against Palacios. It's convenient to depict Palacios as a top cruiserweight, but he's not. He got a shot at Wlod despite having a very padded record, with his best opponents arguably being journeyman Zack Page and very post-prime Louis Azille. Conversely, each of Huck, Lebedev, Hernandez, and Afolabi defeated or fought evenly with several opponents who were then either world class, fringe-world class, or European class, such as, respectively, Povetkin, Lebedev, Ramirez, Tokarev, Munrose, and Russal; Huck, Alekseev, Maccarinelli, Isamilov, and Silgado; Cunningham, Ross, Herelius, Licina, and Williams; and Huck, Maccarinelli, Brudov, and Fields. Each of the fighters I listed are at least as accomplished as Palacios is, and most of them are more accomplished than he is, so it's not true that he is a good opponent compared to who the other titlists have fought. Those titlists also didn't have major problems beating any of their recent opponents with comparable resumes to Palacios's.

The other major titlists have had some problems, though. Huck struggled with 41 year old Firat Arslan, Hernandez was dropped heavily by Troy Ross, Lebedev was out boxed at times by Silgado and Jones, and Afolabi looked unimpressive in beating a journeyman. However, none of them struggled to the extent that Wlod did against Palacios, and none of them struggled significantly with opponents as bad as Robinson. I also think they've looked better against high-level opponents than Wlod has, and consequently I think there is a strong basis for claiming that Wlod is currently the worst of the major titlists.

Lebedev has taken the same path as Green, yet this is somehow over looked, given Green at least comes close to the age of the legends he's been in with.

Lebedev has taken a similar path to Green's, but the former hasn't been heavily stopped twice while the latter has. Most people also thought that Lebedev deserved to win against Huck, which cannot be said for Danny's fight with Wlod, and Lebedev annihilated Alekseev, whose resume is no worse than Flores's and Cameron's are. That Green is closer in age to his opponents than Lebedev is to his opponents doesn't affect the ability or resume of those opponents, so it's irrelevant to my rankings.

Hounddawg wrote
Yeah but Lebedev hasn't fought a very, very fit Tarver and a desperate, throw caution to the wind Wlod who was way behind on points, however i will give him the Huck fight, Maccaranelli is a very soft chinned man and always was, a champion in a very, very weak cruiser division. Alexseev can box, and looks great doing it, but anyone with a punch will always make a 50/50 fight with the Russian, time will prove this if your not already convinced. IMO, Flores knocks Aleexseev out.

As yet Kayode and Masternak have done nothing to get thier 8 or 9 position outside of an unbeaten record. Cameron has far more creedance and i'll even throw in Flores, to lay claim to that top 10 list, as i believe both have fought superior comp. Kayode fought a fat out of shape Tarver, Green fought the best looking Tarver since 2007, and was in my opinion heavily juicing( my opinion only).

Kayode drew with Tarver, and did enough to make a strong case that he beat Tarver. He also has wins over top 50 type opponents, such as Matt Godfrey. Green has better wins than Kayode does, but he was outclassed, punished, and stopped by Tarver a year before, and he was heavily stopped in his next fight. Given that Green has been stopped in two of his last four bouts, given that Kayode drew with one of the fighters who stopped Green, and given that Kayode's overall resume isn't terribly weak, I think there's a good case for now ranking him ahead of Green.

Hounddawg wrote
Kayode fought a Blimp, and Tarver won that fight, Kayode was a punch or 2 away in several rounds from being kayoed, let's see the fit Tarver that Green fought, with your current reasoning can we base conditioning as a factor for basing an opinion on rankings, if so there is simply no comparison between Kayode's poor performance against a fat ready to be taken Tarver, and the guy who trained and looked the fittest he's looked since 07. Although Green was stopped by Tarver 1 or 2 IMO and Wlod 3 IMO, how is this bad? He was ahead aginst the titlist and had him hurt and reeling in round 5, and at 1 point in round 7 had Tarver very hurt. He then drops 6 kilo's and fights a man who was once on the fringe and stops him, and beats a career best form fringe world class fighter who arguably had the knock out of the year last year over the man who beat the same man. Kayode drew with Tarver so there for gets in.....are you serious? Honestly who won that fight...Fat Tarver right? It's a system i guess.
You say that Flores and Cameron have fought better competition than Kayode has, but I disagree. Flores and Kayode have fought the same level of opposition, sharing several opponents such as Ianzuzzi, Mendoza, Herrera, but Kayode did significantly better against Tarver than Flores did against Green. Cameron's wins have come almost exclusively against domestic level opponents like Amman, McCracken, and Vea, who collectively are on a similar level to opponents Kayode opponents such as Ianzuzzi, Herrera, and Godfrey. Cameron's best win was arguably over Barrett, but a draw with Tarver is no less impressive than a win over Barrett, and Cameron's credibility should not be enhanced by his blowout loss to Tua.

Masternak, looks good, but who the hell has he beaten?

Masternak has beaten many top 30-70 opponents, usually convincingly. He doesn't have a stellar resume and Green clearly has better wins, but since Green's been stopped twice in his last four fights and Santiago is no better than some of Masternak's recent opponents, such as Haapoja, I think it's fair to rank Masterak ahead of Green based on recent results.

Hounddawg Wrote
WTF, you going to pull Santiago out, and use that for a basis to put Masternak ahead of Green, surely Cameron was top 20 in your list...right? Based on that Green surely beats out a spot in the top 10, because i've never heard such silly reasoning in my boxing life, you can't pick and choose Crusader and leave out intricate details, meaning you can't go 2 fights back and ignore the last one to make a point. Based on your logic alone Cameron was top 20, and Masternak hasn't been in the ring with a top 30 guy yet....but he looks good and gets in When has anyone who's beaten plenty of top 30 to 70 opponents deserved a spot in the top 10 LOL

I mean besides the draw, who the hell has Ofalobi beaten...can he box, absolutely! has he beaten anyone of note....NO!

Afolabi has beaten Maccrinelli, Brudov, and Fields, which is comparable to Green's cruiserweight wins. Moreover, Afolabi hasn't been stopped in two of his last four fights, and he fought an elite cruiserweight--Huck--to a draw, while Green was stopped by Wlod, the only opponent he faced who was arguably an elite cruiserweight at the time. So, I don't see why it would be a poor decision to rank Afolabi ahead of Green.

Hounddawg wote
I won't argue here, except that Mac was crap, who did he ever beat and consider the era,before firing back?
Ofalobi when fit is a force, boring but can box, deserved a place, just not in the top 5.

he was schooling the current WBC title holder, and that should count for something. Don't forget that Green also entered that fight with a busted eye.

I disagree that Green schooled Wlod. I thought Wlod held his own in most of the rounds and won up to four rounds; the official judges were fair in giving him 4 rounds and 3 rounds twice, although one of the latter two cards had him losing the tenth, a round which he dominated. Green deserves some credit for generally doing well, just as Afolabi deserves credit for drawing with Huck rather than beating Huck, but the amount of credit I give Green is considerably limited by him getting worn down and heavily stopped.

As for the eye, I don't think it should mitigate Green's loss. Many fighters enter bout with an ailment, a black eye is a minor ailment, Green's eye looked fine by fight time, and it's very unlikely that a nearly healed black eye would significantly impair a fighter's performance.

Hounddawg wrote
Yeah, how many times at that weight or higher have you seen beaten meat, overcome and win the title? Can i have a name.
Mate i would just like to see a rematch with Green not so tender, because that face came apart quicker than i've ever seen it before.
He held his own, but was clearly way behind, i seen it, his corner knew it and so did the judges! Why is this still argued?
Watch the fight and see the petal to the floor from round 9 onwards, he knew it also. He was going to be knocked out or he was going to knock Green out, i for that give the man all the respect in the world and i for 1 was entertained.

[DA GOOSE]

Good posts lads. hard to argue with any of it. I agree with SweetP, regardless of what letters are attached to it the belt holder makes the belt....I rate Wlod very highly and so rate Green highly considering the lesson he was giving Wlod until he got POLE AXED...my opinion.

Wlod was coming off a gift and anti-depressant overdose. Wlod is fighting a russian in Moscow next can't remember his name it's on boxrec. Look for Green to call out Mundine and fight Cameron in New Zealand at a catchweight.

[crusader]

So this whole Wlod being the weakest is based on Jason Robinson's fight and other titlists have looked better against similar opposition?? Wlod's resume is as good as any, i don't gauge a fighter on 1 or even 2 performances, some fighters don't lift for those fights, did you happen to catch the 2nd fight? Lebedev, who has beaten Alexseev who can fight, he just can't take a punch, and a even more shop worn RJJ than the the one that Green took all of 86 seconds to stop, gets a pass, because he looked good? Fair enough i guess. Don't agree, however i can see how you aplying logic to your reasoning, i wouldn't listen to a tip based on that though.

It's based on a string of recent performances in which Wlod looked poor against limited opposition. He hasn't looked good since beating Fragomeni three years ago, while the other major titlists have looked good against good opponents and haven't struggled greatly with limited opposition multiple times. Why shouldn't recent performances be weighted heavily when assessing how good a fighter currently is?

Yeah but Lebedev hasn't fought a very, very fit Tarver and a desperate, throw caution to the wind Wlod who was way behind on points, however i will give him the Huck fight, Maccaranelli is a very soft chinned man and always was, a champion in a very, very weak cruiser division. Alexseev can box, and looks great doing it, but anyone with a punch will always make a 50/50 fight with the Russian, time will prove this if your not already convinced. IMO, Flores knocks Aleexseev out.

Lebedev fought a very fit Huck, who is far more proven at cruiserweight--both recently and throughout his career--than Tarver is, and he did far better than Green did against Tarver. As for Wlod, he never fought desperately or went for broke against Green; he maintained his pace while Green was unable to do likewise. Besides, being desperate is usually a disadvantage rather than an advantage.

Alekseev's resume is at least as good as Flores's is, and even you admit that he looks good. It's possible that Flores would beat Alekseev, but I think they're on a similar level. Given that Lebedev heavily stopped Alekseev in two rounds and Green was far less dominant in winning a decision over Flores, I think it's fair to say that Lebedev's best win is better than Green's best CW win. When that's considered with Lebedev's performance against Huck, his much larger body of CW work relative to Green's, and Green's recent stoppage losses, I think Lebedev inarguably should be ranked higher than Green.

Kayode fought a Blimp, and Tarver won that fight, Kayode was a punch or 2 away in several rounds from being kayoed, let's see the fit Tarver that Green fought, with your current reasoning can we base conditioning as a factor for basing an opinion on rankings, if so there is simply no comparison between Kayode's poor performance against a fat ready to be taken Tarver, and the guy who trained and looked the fittest he's looked since 07. Although Green was stopped by Tarver 1 or 2 IMO and Wlod 3 IMO, how is this bad? He was ahead aginst the titlist and had him hurt and reeling in round 5, and at 1 point in round 7 had Tarver very hurt. He then drops 6 kilo's and fights a man who was once on the fringe and stops him, and beats a career best form fringe world class fighter who arguably had the knock out of the year last year over the man who beat the same man. Kayode drew with Tarver so there for gets in.....are you serious? Honestly who won that fight...Fat Tarver right? It's a system i guess.

You're distorting reality to make Green look good. Tarver was NEVER close to knocking out Kayode, and I'd like you to list the rounds in which you erroneously think he was. The draw was fair, and a close win for either man would've been fair; Tarver did nothing over 5 of the first 6 rounds while Kayode was much more active and landing more often, and Tarver won most of the rounds in the second half of the bout.

Tarver was in better shape for the Green fight, but I think you're exaggerating the degree to which he was in better shape. I think his struggles with Kayode were more due to Kayode's awkward aggression and great physical strength, which Green lacks as a cruiserweight, and I don't think conditioning was a major reason why Tarver had these problems. He also seemed to have more energy as the fight progressed, which isn't a sign that his conditioning was horrible.

You're suggesting that Tarver was the number one or two cruiserweight, but why would it have been appropriate to rank Tarver at 1 or 2 when he has only one win at the weight and only two wins at any weight in the last five years? Huck, Afolabi, Wlod, Hernandez, and Lebedev always deserved to be ranked higher at cruiserweight than Tarver was.

WTF, you going to pull Santiago out, and use that for a basis to put Masternak ahead of Green, surely Cameron was top 20 in your list...right? Based on that Green surely beats out a spot in the top 10, because i've never heard such silly reasoning in my boxing life, you can't pick and choose Crusader and leave out intricate details, meaning you can't go 2 fights back and ignore the last one to make a point. Based on your logic alone Cameron was top 20, and Masternak hasn't been in the ring with a top 30 guy yet....but he looks good and gets in [/b] When has anyone who's beaten plenty of top 30 to 70 opponents deserved a spot in the top 10 LOL

Many fighters enter the top ten without wins over top 10 or even top 20 opponents. This can happen if, for example, fighters with better resumes have recently lost or have been inactive, if fighters with a superior best win have an inferior body of wins overall, or if a fighter has looked excellent in beating lower ranked fighters. Besides, I said that Masternak has plenty of wins over top 30-70 opponents, I didn't say that he's failed to beat an opponent within the top 30; Juho Haapoja, for example, was probably 20-25 when Masternak clearly beat him.

Given that Green's lost two of his last four by stoppage and Masternak was 8-0 over the same period, I think Green needed two good wins or at least one great win to be inarguably ahead of Masternak. Since Santiago was not a good win--he's a past-prime light heavyweight--and Cameron is only a good win, I don't think Green's recently done enough to inarguably merit a spot ahead of Masternak.

I won't argue here, except that Mac was crap, who did he ever beat and consider the era,before firing back?

Mac nearly shutout Wayne Braithwaite shortly after the latter had been a world champion and immediately before the latter knocked out current CW champ Yoan Pablo Hernandez. Even after losing to Lebedev, Mac won a European title by knocking out the favored Alexander Kotolbay in one round. Today's division isn't much stronger, if it's stronger at all, than the division was when Enzo was top ten.

Besides, who has BJ Flores beaten? You're trying hard to label him a good opponent since he's Green's best CW win, but Flores has never beaten an opponent as good as Braithwaite was.

Yeah, how many times at that weight or higher have you seen beaten meat, overcome and win the title? Can i have a name.
Mate i would just like to see a rematch with Green not so tender, because that face came apart quicker than i've ever seen it before.
He held his own, but was clearly way behind, i seen it, his corner knew it and so did the judges! Why is this still argued?
Watch the fight and see the petal to the floor from round 9 onwards, he knew it also. He was going to be knocked out or he was going to knock Green out, i for that give the man all the respect in the world and i for 1 was entertained.

Green bleeding from the nose and being damaged around the face has little to do with him having a minor black eye before the fight. Green didn't lose because of facial injuries anyway; he lost because he didn't have the stamina or durability to cope over twelve rounds with a physically stronger opponent who wouldn't go away.

The sample size of fighters entering bouts with black eyes is small, so there aren't many examples of fighters winning or losing with black eyes suffered before the fight. The one example, aside from Green-Wlod, I can find of a CW entering with a black eye is Lebedev-Cox; Lebedev had a larger black eye than Green did, and he knocked out Cox in two rounds.

[Rapid fire]

It's simple Danny green is a fraud.