Fight Films Lost To History

[Brutu]

Yeah king has a nice collection and retains the rights to it.

Im not aware of either graziano-servo or tribuiani.

Maybe he also has a side collection where he retains no rights to.
until his lawyers can figure it out anyway.

[Brutu]

I dont think it would hurt to make a listing of well known celebrities of the 1950's and 1960's
who were big boxing fans particularly if they are still alive.
Maybe someone can contact their agents to ask.

Lee Majors(The Big Valley) was a big boxing fan and he is still alive(born 1939).

[Brutu]

If this guy cant find Jerry Quarry vs Buster Mathis on video-tape or film.
Then probably nobody can.
Paul Brownstein aka "TV's Supersleuth".

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Brownstein

[jdempsey85]

Anymore Bobby Chacon out there?

[klompton]

A couple more lost films:

Jack Sharkey Vs. Harry Wills
Jim Coffey Vs. Jim Flynn
Arthur Pelkey Vs. Luther McCarty (the death was supposedly shown in these)

[Brutu]

Isnt there a clip somewhere of Jack Sharkey and Harry Wills?
Maybe its just my imagination but I think i recall seeing a clip
of it on ESPN Classic some years back.
Maybe it was just a photograph and I imagined them moving in my mind.
I do remeber remembering that Harry Wills look kind of upright and stiff against Jack Sharkey for some reason.

[klompton]

Nope. No known footage of Sharkey-Wills. There is footage of Uzcudan-Wills, and Wills does not look good in it (hes near 40). That is probably the clip in question.

[Brutu]

The narrator must have been talking about Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills,
and Harry Will's being taken out of contention for his loss to Jack Sharkey
when they shown the clip.hence the confusion.

[CNorkusJr]

I recently found out from Steve Lott through Henry Hascup that the Norkus vs Moore fight does not exist, though it was on televeision. A copy of the transmission was probably never made.

[CNorkusJr]

I dont think it would hurt to make a listing of well known celebrities of the 1950's and 1960's
who were big boxing fans particularly if they are still alive.
Maybe someone can contact their agents to ask.

Lee Majors(The Big Valley) was a big boxing fan and he is still alive(born 1939).

Actually, the families of older boxers from the 50's and 60's have the collections that need to be shown. Over the years, boxers like my father were in constant contact with Jim Jacobs getting "copies" of their fights on 16mm film. Once word got out of such a favor by Jim, dozens upon dozens of fighters got copies of their fights. The fighters had to send releases stating they would not show them for-profit. Craig from Jo-Sports had bought Jim Jacobs letters and copies of such releases signed by the fighters and I just bought my dads copy that Jim Jacob had.

As these films got torn and worn-film collectors from across the country bought these films (usually in a trade off) from the fighters. In return several of these collectors had the means to restore these films and place them on the latest medium at that time. First VHS then eventually DVD. They would then send the latest medium to the boxer (usually several copies of the tapes of each fight submitted in return).

I can also tell you many fight films are in England. In the mid 1990's collector Tony Fosco found out that my fathers fight vs Joey Rowan existed in 16mm negative form there by a collector. He made a deal to purchase it and I went 50-50 with him. He made a positive print of the film, put it on DVD and sent me several copies. Its the entire TV fight from St Nicks.Who knows how any films are in Europe too.

Same could be said for the audio of radio recordings as I have a copy of Gilette Calvacade of Sports Don Duphy's radio call of my fathers 2nd fight vs Ceasr Brion on first cassette, then CD.
There is no doubt that many of these recordings are still in possession by family members or been traded in for updating.
I can tell you that my father acquired a few Jake LaMotta fights, Dempsey fights and others, so that when he showed them in bars and clubs, he didnt just show his fights.

Here is a copy of my fathers contract with Jacobs. Whether its legal or not, doesnt matter to us, as he did all fighters a great service and if you think about it,anyone viewing films a great service to by putting out there from a private collection.


Having spoke to my father several times and seeing pictures with him and celebrities after several of his fights, I can tell you that actor Phil Silvers, Jimmy Durante, comedian Jan Murray and baseball legend Joe DiMaggio were constant attendees at my fathers fights when possible. Especially Joe DiMaggio, a huge fan, and hardly missed a Yankee Stadium fight unless Yanks were out of town, but even after he retired he was a constant show-up at the fights at the Garden too. Whether these individuals had films I do not know.

[Brutu]

That contract with Jim Jacobs and Big Fights Inc. was rich considering since it was Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton who had double-crossed Former Heavyweight champion Jess Willard who was the one who originally spent his time and money searching and finally found the collector in Sydney Australia in 1959 who had a print of the Willard-Johnson fight after Willard was searching for it for almost 2 years.
Willard sued Jacobs and Cayton for One Million dollars
in 1962 for "Breach of contract and fraud",Here is a link to a newspaper article to prove it.

http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?n ... 804,898622

[klompton]

Hi guys,

I have updated my list of lost films. Some pretty interesting ones on here:


Al Corbett Vs Red Chapman
Archie Bradley Vs Harry Stone
Arthur Pelkey Vs. Luther McCarty
Battling Nelson Vs Terry McGovern
Benny Bass Vs Harry Blitman
Benny Bass Vs Red Chapman
Billy Conn Vs. Tony Zale
Billy Papke Vs Georges Bernard
Billy Wells Vs Bandsman Blake
Bob Fitzsimmons Vs Gus Ruhlin
Bob Fitzsimmons Vs Jack O'Brien
Danny Frush Vs Johnny Kilbane
Eddie McGoorty Vs Dave Smith
Fernand Quendreux Vs Astier
Frank Klaus Vs Marcel Moreau
Frank Moran Vs Billy Wells
Frankie Genaro Vs Bushy Graham
Fred Fulton Vs Carl Morris
Fred Fulton Vs Charlie Weinert
Freddie Welsh Vs Jack Daniels
Freddie Welsh Vs Willie Ritchie
Georges Carpentier Vs Billy Wells
Georges Carpentier Vs George Gunther
Georges Carpentier Vs Gunboat Smith
Georges Carpentier Vs Jim Sullivan
Georges Carpentier Vs Joe Jeanette
Gunboat Smith Vs Arthur Pelkey
Gunner Moir Vs Tiger Smith
Harry Wills Vs Jack Sharkey
Henry Armstrong Vs. Lew Jenkins
Hughie Mehegen Vs Matt Wells
Jack Dempsey Vs Fred Fulton
jack Dempsey Vs Carl Morris
Jack Johnson exhibition while in prison
Jack Johnson Vs Bob Roper
Jack Sharkey Vs. Jimmy Maloney 2
Jim Coffey Vs Jim Flynn
Jim Corbett Vs Jim Jeffries
Jim Corbett Vs Kid McCoy (not sure if this is the staged fight they did before a back drop or the real one)
Jim Jeffries Vs Bob Fitzsimmons (The lighting was too bad to make the film commercially successful)
Jimmy Britt Vs Johnny Summers
Jimmy Slattery Vs Jack Lynch
Joe Bonds Vs Dick O'Brien
Joe Louis Vs Lou Nova
Johnny Kilbane Vs George Chaney
Johnny Risko Vs Victorio Campollo
Kid McCoy Vs Peter Maher
Luis Firpo Vs Sailor Maxted
Luis Firpo Vs Jack McAuliffe
Marcel Cerdan Vs. Holman Williams
Mickey Walker Vs Dave Shade
Mike Gibbons Vs Soldier Bartfield
Mike Gibbons Vs Young Ahearn
Packey McFarland Vs Matt Wells
Paul Berlenbach Vs Mike McTigue
Paul Berlenbach Vs Young Stribling
Pedlar Palmer Vs Dick Burge
Pete Latzo Vs Joe Dundee
Ray Bronson Vs Sid Sullivan
Rocky Kansas Vs Jimmy Goodrich
Saint Didier Vs Joe Gans (not that Joe Gans)
Ruby Goldstein Vs Tony Vaccarelli
Sam Langford Vs Iron Hague
Sam Langford Vs Jack Lester
Sam Langford Vs Sam McVea Paris 1911
Sam Langford Vs Sam McVea Sydney 1912
Stanislaus Loayza Vs Phil McGraw
Ted Kid Lewis Vs Marcel Thomas
Terry McGovern Vs George Dixon
Tiger Flowers Vs Ray Neuman
Tom Heeney Vs Otto Von Porat
Tom Sharkey Vs Kid McCoy
Willie Lewis Vs Jack Costello
Young Griffo VS Battling Charles Barnett
Young Kloby Vs Eddie Shevlin 1 and 2

[CNorkusJr]

That contract with Jim Jacobs and Big Fights Inc. was rich considering since it was Jim Jacobs and Bill Cayton who had double-crossed Former Heavyweight champion Jess Willard who was the one who originally spent his time and money searching and finally found the collector in Sydney Australia in 1959 who had a print of the Willard-Johnson fight after Willard was searching for it for almost 2 years.
Willard sued Jacobs and Cayton for One Million dollars
in 1962 for "Breach of contract and fraud",Here is a link to a newspaper article to prove it.

http://www.news.google.com/newspapers?n ... 804,898622

Very interesting. I am curious on several accounts- Willard was 80 years old it said in article and I am wondering if he was in need of "Big" money and filed suit.
Far be it anyone in this world file a frivolous lawsuit to gain riches , which no doubt put an expensive price on any print of Willard-Johnson go round.

Do you have an article or know the results of the this lawsuit. The article simply states that a suit was filed, and some background on possesion law-I would like to know of result. I also found it interesting the 1962 date-as I imagine Jacobs was just starting out Big Fights,Inc at the time. If they got burned in the lawsuit back then- I doubt they would have been so loose with their collection later on to other fighters.

Also, I am pretty sure that Jacobs knew that many fighters who received film copies of their fights from him,were showing them publicly, but not for compensation per se.
I know of at least 5 boxers who showed their films in the NY area that they received in bars, taverns and various boxing events. In some cases, admission was charged to the showings which included the boxer participants themselves, beer, soda and refreshments were served and the boxers were paid a few bucks to bring home that night for signing autographs and such. No one was getting rich and Jacobs knew this. I dont mention Cayton here, as I only know that Jacobs was dealt in these transactions, and I am not sure if Bill C. knew of them or not. Question no Cayton signature on any contracts above.

What I think Jacobs meant in bottom line was that the films were not be used to receive large amount of money for compensation-giving the film to a movie company to place footage in film or very commercialized access, which I never heard happen.

Lets jump ahead a few decades. Just like myself, many fighters & their families shown their 16mm films till most of them stripped audio, burnt, cracked, and worn down to hardly any image left to be seen. Many collectors made themselves known and contacted the plethora of fighters who had films. Some just fished calling every boxer possible to see if they any films at all. Those who did agreed to send these films in to be restored and the collectors ,true to their word, restored, copied the films to the latest media and sent many copies of such back to the fighters. No exchange of payment was made that I know about, it was all trade. After all, who wanted to carry around a projector and 16mm reels, when they can buy a VHS machine for their TV.
The collectors kept the films. I,m sure all of those reading this know that. And I think Jacobs made no bones about it,he still owned every film that practically existed anyway and received the compensation he wanted from rights to the films.

[klompton]

Willard would not have had any legitimate claim on the fight.

[Brutu]

No claim?not even with"An Image of his Likeness?
where is raylawpac when u need him?

[CNorkusJr]

I'm thinking when did "public domain" begin Or..
Was Willard compensated for being filmed in that fight ?. I doubt Johnson was.
If that happened, wouldnt the rights go to the filmer and not Willard.

Jacobs verbally said to Willard that he wouldnt televise it. Get it on paper-my guess Willard didnt win,or settled out of court to whatever pleased Willard.

[Brutu]

Is there any written proof that Jack Dempsey vrs Fred Fulton
was even filmed,such as a copyright?
I think some newspaper writer had confused it with
Jack Dempsey vrs Jess Willard not too long after that fight.

[klompton]

Willard would have signed over any claim he had on his "likeness" being shown in the film when he was paid for it in 1915. Thats how fighters made their money from the films back in those days. You cant sell your rights to the film and then 50 years later lay claim to them again. That is essentially double dipping. This is besides the fact that it likely reverted to public domain in the 1940s. Jack Curley, I believe, retained the rights to the film of Willard-Johnson. He died in the 1930s and it's doubtful he ever would have extended the copyright. Few, if any, had the foresight to extend their copyright back in those days because the demand was minimal for replaying these things, there wasnt a medium for it beyond film (no TV or internet), and the law banning interstate transportation of the films (which was in effect from the time Curley had the fight filmed to the time he died) limited the ability to capitilize on it (which was a very real problem for the film back in 1915).

Yes, there is written proof Dempsey-Fulton was filmed. I have written proof that every fight on this list was filmed. Some of the earliest ones may have been re-productions but even in those cases I have gone out of my way to distinguish between the repros and the actual fight.

Finally, that Jacobs and Cayton "double crossed" Willard is Willard's story. Im sure there is another side to it. Remember, Willard spent his life claiming Jack Dempsey cheated him out of the title, and later tried to extort money from Dempsey.

[Senya13]

Joe Gans vs Jimmy Britt II (Sept 1907) was filmed.

[klompton]

I'm thinking when did "public domain" begin Or..
Was Willard compensated for being filmed in that fight ?. I doubt Johnson was.
If that happened, wouldnt the rights go to the filmer and not Willard.

Jacobs verbally said to Willard that he wouldnt televise it. Get it on paper-my guess Willard didnt win,or settled out of court to whatever pleased Willard.

The 1909 Copyright Act stated that works could be copyrighted for a period of 28 years from the date of publication. The copyright owner could then renew the copyright for another 28 years for a total of 56 years from the date of publication. In 1912 this act was amended to include motion pictures. That was the law under which Willard-Johnson was filmed.

Willard and Johnson were both paid for their rights to any claim on the film. This was a basic standard that had been in place since the 1890s. Willard would have had no claim whatsoever to the film.

That being said, Curley would have copyrighted the film in 1915 (one would assume, this isnt a given). Therefore he would have had to renew the copyright in 1943 in order for it to have been in effect for anyone to buy in the rights in 1959 and for there to have been a lawsuit over them in 1962. The problem is that Curley died in 1937, six years before the copyright would have been renewed. Furthermore, most of those old copyrights for films were never renewed because there was no reasonable expectation that any significant amount of money could generated by them after their initial run. So essentially the copyright to that film lapsed in 1943. There might be some remote circumstance whereby it was renewed somehow but even then it would have lapsed into the public domain in 1971 prior to the 1976 copyright amendment that extended terms.

My three points are that: 1. Willard never had any claim to this film. 2. BigFights likely never had any copyright to this film. 3. Any claim anyone had on this would have expired in 1971.

Cayton and Jacobs tried to file whats called "derivative" copyrights on all their old films in order make some tenuous claim on them and sue anyone who tried to capitilize on them. They scared the bejesus out of a lot of collectors this way. This was a really shady way of doing business though and had no real legal basis (and was challenged in court several times successfully) The law on derivative works states:

"The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material."

So essentially just because Cayton and Jacobs added new titles and a new soundtrack they wouldnt have any claim to the original film. Even if they edited out rounds etc. Their only claim would have been to the original work they added to the already copyright or public domain film (i.e. their new soundtrack and titles). Essentially what Cayton and Jacobs were trying to do was add a new cover to "Gone With The Wind" and say they now owned it. It doesnt work like that.

Willards claim is ridiculous as well. He states that had there not been a ban on interstate transportation of fight films the Johnson-Willard film would have been worth a fortune. Hes right. The ban did hurt the ability for the film to make money but that extended only to Curley who was the person who owned the rights and had the responsibility of marketing it in order to recoup his investment which included the money he had paid Willard and Johnson for the rights. Willard got his money so he was not effected by the difficulty in marketing the film.

[CNorkusJr]

Interesting. I can say that I know nothing of copyright laws or any laws dealing with the commerce of videos that are out there now nor do I really care who owns whats rights if any. Every few days I google my fathers boxing name on the computer, to find whats written lately and nifty links that contain info on him. When I get to about page 12 or 13 or so, of course I start to get other "Norkus" related stuff that does not pertain to my father or even my family.

On several ocaissions I had come across in that area a link that took me to a federal site or court site that stated " Norkus fights vs Nardico and several other BIg Fights Inc, films renewals for copyright "were established with various file numbers attached to each film listed. If I remember correctly, the date was approximately 1985 or thereabouts. The website was some kind of official website for copyright images and ownerships and was NOT put on there by Big Fights. In fact, other film companies also had there rights of renewal listed as well. I can tell you it was not the complete catalog of Big Fights, and only specified about 30-50 fights individually listed, of which my father had only the one listed among them (hence it kicked out onto his search page). I dont know the exact meaning of it, but it is what it is. That was about 8 months ago that I saw it.

[klompton]

Anybody can file a copyright on anything, the question is will it hold up in court. I have the list you are referring to and can give some examples of why they dont have the copyrights on all of the films they say they do:

For instance, the Louis-Ramage fight. I have an old magazine from the 1960s detailing when this film was found after having been lost for years. In the magazine they were trying to identify Louis' opponent. Its obvious from the copyright date that Cayton and Jacobs acquired this film around this time and immediately tried to file a copyright on it. This once again illustrates that Cayton and Jacobs were very focused on the idea that owning the actual film somehow entitled them to copyright. This would be the case under a transfer agreement but most of the time they were not purchasing the film from the owner of the copyright (if copyright even existed) so they would have to illustrate that they owned a valid copyright that descended from the original "author." Simply buying the film does not cut the mustard and would not hold up in a court of law.

Another one is Mike Gibbons-Packey McFarland. That film was shot in 1915 and is in the public domain. Yet according to Cayton and Jacobs the copyright doesnt expire until 2063. Absolutely untrue. Nothing they could have possibly done between the time they acquired that film to now could have extended the copyright beyond its natural life.

Other films on here, for instance many of the Fullmer films, those rights were owned and retained by Marv Jensen. BigFights lists Fullmer-Giardello as one they have the rights to. Thats B.S. They only have about three minutes of that fight which came from an old newsreel. Marv Jensen was the only one who had that full film, until he sold his collection, but he never sold it to Cayton and Jacobs and never sold the rights (and thats if he ever even filed rights on the films he shot).

Several of those fights are simply 3 minute highite reels that they purchased from news outlets. I guarantee the news outlets werent giving up the rights to Cayton and Jacobs. They may have licensed those films to them, but they didnt give up their rights, and again, most of those clips were only licensed to news agencys, for the news, the ownership rights were not given over wholly to them. So the copyright would remain with the original holder.

Youll also note a ton of fights originating from the IBC. It was proven in court they dont own the rights to any fights promoted by the IBC. This was testified to by Truman Gibson, attorney for the IBC in sworn, taped deposition.

A ton of those older foreign fights they dont own the rights to (if rights even exist) and Ive found in at least one case where Jacobs actually removed the film from the archive (which isnt on this list) and never returned it.

Ali-Foreman belongs to Don King (as do many others on here) and King is not someone you want to mess around with on copyright and licensing. He is very savvy and very protective of his films. He takes better care of them than anyone.

Most of the fights listed on page 26 are public domain.

The Olympics rights are almost always retained by the Olympic committee residing in the host country. BigFights has lost at least one lawsuit on this in the past.

Dont get me wrong. BigFights owns the copyrights to some fights. Thats undeniable. But in some cases they are/were either confused or being less than honest about how far certain rights they purchased extended. For example, they purchased the films and I assume the rights the fights promoted by the Madison Square Garden Corp. Apparently BigFights had taken this to mean that they owned all of the rights to all of the fights staged at Madison Square Garden. This isnt true though as illustrated by their failure to ascert their control over the IBC collection, which promoted out of MSG in addition to the other arenas it controlled.


These are just a few examples and it doesnt really matter. BigFights is basically gone, espn has the collection, and the only reason to need this information is if you plan on marketing the footage, which most dont.

[Brutu]

How did the Louis-Lee Ramage fight footage turn up?
I always thought it looked professionally filmed.
The fight took place at Wrigley Field in Los Angeles
where Hollywood is was probably a factor.
I remember watching a dvd when Joe Louis was on the Groucho Marx
show YOU BET YOUR LIFE from the early 1950's.
Groucho Marx was a fight fan and was there in the audience that day in 1934.
He told Joe Louis watching that fight was like watching a farmer chasing a chicken around the barnyard with an axe.
Louis fight with Natie Brown in Detroit a month later was suppose to have been Joe Louis's
coming out party for all the national sportswriters,or at least all the New York sports writers anyway
Ive always been curious as to why that bout wasn't filmed(or was it?).

[CNorkusJr]

Thank You Klompton for your research and explaining of such.

[Brutu]

were there any fight films in the Ingemar Johansson Estate?
Il Duce made an interesting posting
quoting Johansson about Sonny Liston's speed
while "watching film" of Liston's fight with Howard King.
Presumably that was the second fight at Miami Beach
were Johansson was training to fight Floyd Patterson for the third time.
Sounds like Johansson had someone film that second Liston vs King fight
for future referance in case they were matched later?