Just watched Patterson vs Ali.....(Tyson)

hawaiianpunch · Post by **hawaiianpunch** » 21 Oct 2005, 21:33

And while Ali clearly had his way with Floyd, Patterson did have his moments in the fight and was not totally dominated. Nobody seems to give a PRIME Tyson a shot at beating Ali, but if someone smaller, less powerful, slower etc could give Ali a fight, I see no reason why a fighter better in every area (than Patterson) with the same style and way more power with every punch would not have at least a good shot at beating him!???

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 22 Oct 2005, 01:40

..ali wouldn't have let tyson hit him as much he let floyd. he knew patterson couldn't hurt him, so he lagged a bit on his defense to keep floyd coming to him so he could batter and toy with him the way he did. he was mad at floyd for not calling him ali....calling him clay instead, and ...much as he did in the terrell fight he kept saying "what's my name" and badgering patterson so much verbally that the referee made him stop. it was a very mean cat and mouse torment.

tyson was a hard..HARD...puncher.....and ali would have taken him more seriously while outboxing him, playing with his (fragile) psyche and landing harder punches.....more as in the thrilla in manilla...and with more effect as tyson didn't have the stoic keep- coming -though- behind mentallity that frazier had.

i am not one of those who under rate tyson...when on his game he could be devastating.....i just don't see him doing much against ali ..with both meeting in their prime.

hawaiianpunch · Post by **hawaiianpunch** » 22 Oct 2005, 01:54

Very possible, my dad who is a huge Ali fan could argue all day with me that a prime Tyson would never have a chance. My point is at his best, in shape, Tyson would have a hell of a chance. What would have happened if Ali's glove didn't tear in the Henry Cooper fight? What if Tyson caught him the way Frazier did? I am not saying Tyson would surely win, but nowdays people have him way down in the all time ratings because he lost a couple fights way past him prime (and the Douglas fight when he did not train and supposedly used Slimfast to get to fight weight). Fact is at his best (Berbick, Spinks, Holmes etc) He COULD beat anybody including Ali. Of course this is just my opinion.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 22 Oct 2005, 09:33

YOu always give Tyson the punchers chance, he would simply be going against the guy who had the greatest defense versus big punchers the world has ever seen. So you have to lean to Ali, but you can never count Tyson out.....Well maybe if your the ref, but other than that.

And Ali did toy with Floyd and always had ring generalship one up on Floyd during the whole fight, he was simply in control.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 22 Oct 2005, 12:48

hawaiianpunch wrote:And while Ali clearly had his way with Floyd, Patterson did have his moments in the fight and was not totally dominated. Nobody seems to give a PRIME Tyson a shot at beating Ali, but if someone smaller, less powerful, slower etc could give Ali a fight, I see no reason why a fighter better in every area (than Patterson) with the same style and way more power with every punch would not have at least a good shot at beating him!???

When you look at it that way, you have a good point.

Tyson's problem is his lack of heart & poor(ish) stamina; that's what would have got him beaten by Ali. Floyd wasn't as good as Tyson, but crucially, he had a bigger heart.

The End · Post by **The End** » 22 Oct 2005, 16:35

Decagon wrote:I rank Ali the #1 heavyweight of all time and I don't rank Tyson as one of the ten best, but I'd make him a -300 underdog and Ali a +200 favorite. Stylisticly, this is a terrible match for Tyson, because Ali never had trouble going 15 rounds, while Tyson usually shut down after five. I don't think Tyson could crack Ali's chin, but he sure could have some moments. Could he have enough of those moments to win eight rounds? I doubt it. Could he knock Ali out? I doubt it.

I'd bet the farm on Ali, even at -300.

.....

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 23 Oct 2005, 05:38

at his best Tyson had lot's of hart. When he cared.. like against Buster? Didn't he show hart. He was given a horrific beatin but still hang there.

ive been saying that for a while but Frazier and the thrilla in Manilla is not at all the bout to judge how Tyson would have done. Fast straight rights and lefts would have troubeled Ali - something that Frazier never did. Frazier was really very limited. He threw his hooks and barely moved foward and could not be effective when Ali was in the ropes. Anyways .. that's not the Ali were talkin about anyway. The Prime Ali would have danced around being very cautios. Can you imagine faster and more accurate motivated Sonny Liston... fast hands and good movement with hart and willing to bust the balleteer.

theone · Post by **theone** » 23 Oct 2005, 09:35

Ali fought to the level of his compitition. thats why he often fought more impressively against his better opponents.

theone · Post by **theone** » 23 Oct 2005, 14:43

No, he didn't. He had specific goals for each of his fights.

I agree with the points you mentioned. But you cant deny that some of his biggest snore fest were against fighters who were probably not even worthy to be in the ring with him in the first place.
They offered him no real challenge so he had no need to step it up.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 23 Oct 2005, 16:39

Forman and Frazier boosted up Ali competition - both men real limited in there own way. And don't forget that Norton gave Ali all he could handle. Just like the case with Larry.

theone · Post by **theone** » 23 Oct 2005, 17:13

Forman and Frazier boosted up Ali competition - both men real limited in there own way

Every heavyweight in history had flaws. You could nick pick anyones career,
but bottom line is Frazier's and Foreman strenghts far outweigh any flaws they may have had.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 24 Oct 2005, 05:13

Jaclem wrote:..ali wouldn't have let tyson hit him as much he let floyd. he knew patterson couldn't hurt him, so he lagged a bit on his defense to keep floyd coming to him so he could batter and toy with him the way he did. he was mad at floyd for not calling him ali....calling him clay instead, and ...much as he did in the terrell fight he kept saying "what's my name" and badgering patterson so much verbally that the referee made him stop. it was a very mean cat and mouse torment.

tyson was a hard..HARD...puncher.....and ali would have taken him more seriously while outboxing him, playing with his (fragile) psyche and landing harder punches.....more as in the thrilla in manilla...and with more effect as tyson didn't have the stoic keep- coming -though- behind mentallity that frazier had.

i am not one of those who under rate tyson...when on his game he could be devastating.....i just don't see him doing much against ali ..with both meeting in their prime.

Patterson couldnt hurt Ali?

Henry Cooper did!

If Tyson caught Ali, it would have been goodnight.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 24 Oct 2005, 08:47

Hmm Shavers caught him, as did Foreman but it wasnt "good night" for the greatest. He had pretty good whiskers that boy did.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 24 Oct 2005, 10:29

As much as a fan of Ali that I am, to say that one of the hardest hitting heavyweights with blazing speed and a good chin with very good stamina (Tyson) would not have a chance against a prime Ali is not true. A puncher of Tyson's measure will always have a chance, even against the iron chinned Ali....However, I feel that Ali would be just too hard to nail really cleanly and I say this after watching a 37 yr old Holmes frustrate Mike for close on 4 rds...Holmes in his prime I feel would have beat that particular Tyson....I see Ali winning a close UD, with a few scary moments en route

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Dec 2005, 23:29

Let's let Floyd explain this to you.

http://www.esquire.com/img/cover/1966/1966_8.jpg

Greg Nicholas · Post by **Greg Nicholas** » 21 Dec 2005, 23:47

Decagon wrote:while Tyson usually shut down after five

WHAT??? That is a complete lie, Tyson never ever tired until he stopped training after the Spinks fight.

Rooney used to make Tyson spar 15 rounds at a time, and Tyson was a gymrat back then with tonnes of stamina. For the Lennox Lewis fight, Tyson had to start sparring 30-second rounds because he was so out of shape. Don't compare the 86-88 Tyson to the 89-05 version, please don't!

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 22 Dec 2005, 09:03

Greg Nicholas wrote:
Decagon wrote:while Tyson usually shut down after five
WHAT??? That is a complete lie, Tyson never ever tired until he stopped training after the Spinks fight.

Rooney used to make Tyson spar 15 rounds at a time, and Tyson was a gymrat back then with tonnes of stamina. For the Lennox Lewis fight, Tyson had to start sparring 30-second rounds because he was so out of shape. Don't compare the 86-88 Tyson to the 89-05 version, please don't!

89-05 version? There was WAY more diffference between the Tyson of 89 and 2005 than there was between '88 and '89. Perhaps you want to break it up into someting like this.

Pre title fight years (85-86)
Unified champion years (86-89)
Unexplainable loss to Douglass night (90)
Post champion pre prison years (90-91)
Lost prison years (91-95)
Post prison "reign of terror" year (until 1st Holy fight) (95-96)
Post Holyfield washed up years (97-01)
Completely shot years (02-05)

I guess you could break it down further, but this is probably good enough.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 22 Dec 2005, 12:19

Decagon wrote:Look at Tyson's last six rounds against Toney Tucker.
Look at Tyson's last six rounds against Bonecrusher Smith.
Look at Tyson's last four rounds against Mitch Green.
Look at Tyson's last four rounds against James Tillis.

He had trouble going 12 tough rounds even in his prime. Ali would not only beat him, but turn him out afterwards.

Agreed.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 22 Dec 2005, 13:00

A prime Ali would be up for Tyson the way he was for Foreman. AND, the mind games Ali would play with Tyson would have Iron Mike coming unglued before the bout began. With each passing round that Tyson failed to hurt Ali, he'd continue to unravel. I think Ali would take Tyson to school and give him a beating after class. Ali by TKO in about 11.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 22 Dec 2005, 14:36

Patterson had a bad back for the fight and Ali punished him for the same reason he punished Terrell. But in the rematch an old Patterson gave Ali problems and frequently hit Ali with his fast hooks that really made Ali to take him seriously and fight as in the first couple of rounds, Ali fought in the early rounds like he did Ron Lyle....just clowning around.

Greg Nicholas · Post by **Greg Nicholas** » 23 Dec 2005, 14:06

The Great John L wrote:
Greg Nicholas wrote:
Decagon wrote:while Tyson usually shut down after five
WHAT??? That is a complete lie, Tyson never ever tired until he stopped training after the Spinks fight.

Rooney used to make Tyson spar 15 rounds at a time, and Tyson was a gymrat back then with tonnes of stamina. For the Lennox Lewis fight, Tyson had to start sparring 30-second rounds because he was so out of shape. Don't compare the 86-88 Tyson to the 89-05 version, please don't!
89-05 version? There was WAY more diffference between the Tyson of 89 and 2005 than there was between '88 and '89. Perhaps you want to break it up into someting like this.

Pre title fight years (85-86)
Unified champion years (86-89)
Unexplainable loss to Douglass night (90)
Post champion pre prison years (90-91)
Lost prison years (91-95)
Post prison "reign of terror" year (until 1st Holy fight) (95-96)
Post Holyfield washed up years (97-01)
Completely shot years (02-05)

I guess you could break it down further, but this is probably good enough.

Tyson was a shadow of his former self after the Spinks fight, when he left the Catskills and stopped training.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 27 Dec 2005, 11:13

In any heavyweight figt it is silly to dismiss the notion that one guy is a certainty. That's the reason the heavyweights have always attracted the most attention and adulation......you just never know what can happen, the KO is always lurking. So as much as an Ali fan that I am, to say Tyson has not a chance is ludicrous. He has more than a chance in my opinion. The fact he has such a devestating punch gives him the chance. He also had speed, defense, chin and decent stamina at his peak. I think Ali would need to be on top form to win and I think he would, but not without a few scares en route....

Just watched Patterson vs Ali.....(Tyson)

Just watched Patterson vs Ali.....(Tyson)

Re: Just watched Patterson vs Ali.....(Tyson)