Power of Louis and Ali

[gilgamesh]

Didn't he steal that line from Sugar who used those words to describe Primo Carnera's power?


Yancey, take a serious look at the frame by frame......the shot (delivered from proper stance or not) caused the type of cranial shudder that if delivered on the button honestly can have an inordinate amount of discombobulating affect. I'm not kidding here. So the physics are sound.

Now it could have been just the sort of "start" to the fight that could have caused a psyche compromised Liston to throw in the proverbial towel on a gut check basis.

I believe it is this....and no other fear, or threat or conspiracy that took place on that day, that brought about that moment. Liston's cookies just crumbled. It's not all that terribly unusual in boxing when a boxer loses his sense of invincibility or confidence.

It was clearly a dive in my view. I've seen the KO numerous times, it's not a particularly hard punch...certainly not hard enough to drop someone like Liston legitimately...plus look at Liston on the ground, he starts to get up, realizes the referee still had apparently not reached the 10 count and just rolls back over onto his back.

The most obvious dive in Boxing history that I've ever seen. The real question to me is "Why did Liston take a dive?" not "Did he?"

[loaded_gloves]

I think the punch certainly jolted Liston - you see his leg jump up. He was coming forward and the shot sprung out of nowhere, historically those ingredients have created knock downs or knock outs, regardless of how great the chin in.

Afterwards we see Liston could have continued, but seemed to want to get out of there. It was a strange and dangerous time in America, very hard for us to comprehend how Sonny felt in '65 all these decades later, having glib conversation on the internet.

[yancey]

Buzz, let them enjoy their fantasies.

They don't have much else to keep them warm on those cold winter nights.

^

Posted while cuddling with his blow up nude.

Alternates that "relationship" with jerking off to his Ali poster in Mum's dingy basement.

[yancey]

Didn't he steal that line from Sugar who used those words to describe Primo Carnera's power?


Yancey, take a serious look at the frame by frame......the shot (delivered from proper stance or not) caused the type of cranial shudder that if delivered on the button honestly can have an inordinate amount of discombobulating affect. I'm not kidding here. So the physics are sound.

Now it could have been just the sort of "start" to the fight that could have caused a psyche compromised Liston to throw in the proverbial towel on a gut check basis.

I believe it is this....and no other fear, or threat or conspiracy that took place on that day, that brought about that moment. Liston's cookies just crumbled. It's not all that terribly unusual in boxing when a boxer loses his sense of invincibility or confidence.

It was clearly a dive in my view. I've seen the KO numerous times, it's not a particularly hard punch...certainly not hard enough to drop someone like Liston legitimately...plus look at Liston on the ground, he starts to get up, realizes the referee still had apparently not reached the 10 count and just rolls back over onto his back.

The most obvious dive in Boxing history that I've ever seen. The real question to me is "Why did Liston take a dive?" not "Did he?"

You've got things exactly right. It was certainly not a bonafide knockdown punch.

Sonny was spooked by threats and was looking to take the first exit, imo.

[BoxBuzz]

Well, I understand your take....but I am speaking of my personal knowledge of physics of the noggin, I'm not saying Liston did not give his all or did give his all, and I'm not saying he wasn't intimidated, and i won't argue that such a story can or can not remain his semi legit excuse.

What I am saying....is that as unusual as that punch seemed, and unsupported as it was, and as uncharacteristic for boxing that such a punch could produce a discombobulation, I assess it as highly likely that it did indeed ring his bell rather profoundly.

I'm only speaking physics, nothing else. His head shudders quite clearly off the top of his higher vertebra and he was hit on a very sensitive spot from a shot he did not see coming. A very unusual combination of events that does not take a sledgehammer to produce the ol' bellringer effect.

Regardless of "past performance" on Liston's part and his granite history. (Sort of like the stock performance of Citibank PRIOR to the "great recession" lol).

[yancey]

Well, I understand your take....but I am speaking of my personal knowledge of physics of the noggin, I'm not saying Liston did not give his all or did give his all, and I'm not saying he wasn't intimidated, and i won't argue that such a story can or can not remain his semi legit excuse.

What I am saying....is that as unusual as that punch seemed, and unsupported as it was, and as uncharacteristic for boxing that such a punch could produce a discombobulation, I assess it as highly likely that it did indeed ring his bell rather profoundly.

I'm only speaking physics, nothing else. His head shudders quite clearly off the top of his higher vertebra and he was hit on a very sensitive spot from a shot he did not see coming. A very unusual combination of events that does not take a sledgehammer to produce the ol' bellringer effect.

Regardless of "past performance" on Liston's part and his granite history. (Sort of like the stock performance of Citibank PRIOR to the "great recession" lol).

OK Buzz, Sonny might have been discombulated a bit, none of us can be positive and maybe I shouldn't be so rigid on this one.

I haven't seen that fiasco in a long time but I do think Sonny's weight was forward when he got hit and maybe that factored.

I think we all agree that however he got down he sure as hell wasn't getting back up until being counted out.

Poor Sonny must have been disgusted with Walcott when he got up on one knee but then had to create a delayed reaction and go back down.

[Giancarlo]

Buzz, let them enjoy their fantasies.

They don't have much else to keep them warm on those cold winter nights.

^

Posted while cuddling with his blow up nude.

Alternates that "relationship" with jerking off to his Ali poster in Mum's dingy basement.

Do pinheads usually live to 70?

[yancey]

Well, I understand your take....but I am speaking of my personal knowledge of physics of the noggin, I'm not saying Liston did not give his all or did give his all, and I'm not saying he wasn't intimidated, and i won't argue that such a story can or can not remain his semi legit excuse.

What I am saying....is that as unusual as that punch seemed, and unsupported as it was, and as uncharacteristic for boxing that such a punch could produce a discombobulation, I assess it as highly likely that it did indeed ring his bell rather profoundly.

I'm only speaking physics, nothing else. His head shudders quite clearly off the top of his higher vertebra and he was hit on a very sensitive spot from a shot he did not see coming. A very unusual combination of events that does not take a sledgehammer to produce the ol' bellringer effect.

Regardless of "past performance" on Liston's part and his granite history. (Sort of like the stock performance of Citibank PRIOR to the "great recession" lol).

Buzz, I went to youtube and took several looks at the punch and the aftermath.

It looks like Sonny actually manages his fall to the canvas using both gloves to effectively manage his fall. Even the way he rolls onto his back once he is down seems managed.

With your background and your hypothesis of what happened, the shudder effect and all, does the way Sonny settled to the canvas give you any pause? Is he suppose to recoup the motor skills so quickly if he has been stunned by a combination of factors?

Just wondering. I don't know. This subject has got me interested a bit.

[BoxBuzz]

Have you seen the "frame by frame" aspect? That's the one that should give pause.

I swear in real time it simply looks hoaxed, and if I recall only a few sharp eyes ringside could even see that any "collision" between Ali's fist and Liston's head even occurred. I fully understand how this myth has lasted. Like soccer that is reported to be seemingly sooo slooww to americans I have to say boxing is just too fast for us sometimes lol.

There was a collision, it was awkward as hell, and I think you got it right, Liston's forward motion was highly likely to be the more damaging factor!! But it was real, it was FAST, and UNSEEN, (not just by those close by, and the media, but more importantly by Liston) those factors are huge in this scenario. His bell was rung. If you have been KO'd or had your bell rung, you know the "room" he was in. It was not a lights out moment, but a "hobblewobble", AND it could have been delayed just as you saw. (the bracing by the hands would not be empirical evidence to the contrary of anything I am suggesting even a bit of consciousness would trigger our basic defenses going down.) AND most important those little hairs and that jelly like fluid in our ears when troubled just right can have an amazing delay to them. I think all the physics are real. Period. But it is hard to sell. I think public barking of this nature is almost always tied to these sorts of "connecting of dots" that don't appear at first glance to be "normal" or "typical".

If he had been purely KO'd in the past, it still may not have prepared him for this "hobble wobble" i am referring to. Though I think Ali experienced it with Foreman with somewhat different results. Hmm did anyone get Joe Frazier to go on the record with what he felt at the hands of Foreman? Joe may not have even felt anything other than the "push" of a knockdown. He may have been nearly impervious to either a KO or being wobbled. (Though he did appear to have been "compromised" in Frazier Ali II....but the ref immediately recognized that it was his job to keep the fight moving forward lol....half kidding here) He did just keep getting up with Foreman as I recall. Did he appear to be "fuzzy minded" or just annoyed and aggravated for being deposited on the canvas? I may have to go back and closely study his reaction. But let's face it, Liston was No Frazier when it came to warrior spirit.

[gilgamesh]

Well, I understand your take....but I am speaking of my personal knowledge of physics of the noggin, I'm not saying Liston did not give his all or did give his all, and I'm not saying he wasn't intimidated, and i won't argue that such a story can or can not remain his semi legit excuse.

What I am saying....is that as unusual as that punch seemed, and unsupported as it was, and as uncharacteristic for boxing that such a punch could produce a discombobulation, I assess it as highly likely that it did indeed ring his bell rather profoundly.

I'm only speaking physics, nothing else. His head shudders quite clearly off the top of his higher vertebra and he was hit on a very sensitive spot from a shot he did not see coming. A very unusual combination of events that does not take a sledgehammer to produce the ol' bellringer effect.

Regardless of "past performance" on Liston's part and his granite history. (Sort of like the stock performance of Citibank PRIOR to the "great recession" lol).

Alright then...You must be Ali's biggest fan...even Liston's biggest fan can see that was a dive. To me it's not even up for debate, either you realize it's a dive...or you're an idiot.

[Giancarlo]

Alright then...You must be Ali's biggest fan...even Liston's biggest fan can see that was a dive. To me it's not even up for debate, either you realize it's a dive...or you're an idiot.

[BoxBuzz]

gilgamesh, if you think that I'm ali's biggest fan fine. I like him fine as a fighter.

I was in my teens at the time, and was alive and interested in the fight when it happened.

If you think I'm an idiot, well I guess I have to endure your keen sense of fair and balanced judgment.

If you think you "know" all the facts. Good for you! Be happy in that knowledge.

I do not know the full truth of the matter. However I do enjoy a good mystery, and I have taken much time to sort through the various documentation that exists around this fight. The hardest part for many to assess is the actual shot itself, and what the physics may or may not represent. Many like yourself believe there simply was not enough contact to create any sort of head trauma, or discombobulation. I can tell you with certainty that such is NOT the case.

I'll leave it for folks like you with superior intelligence to discern the "truth" from the various facts that can be demonstrated. But many KD's in boxing are surrounded with just such "lack of confidence" following such a shot. But none have been quite so politicized and scrutinized.

If this was Zora Foley vs Eddie Machen, I think I might not be quite so suspect in your eyes as having an "agenda". Which honestly...I don't have. I have observed many many folks with head trauma of all manner, and I can speak rather "intelligently" to what may or may not occur when the ol bean gets disrespected. It can manifest in many ways.

[gilgamesh]

gilgamesh, if you think that I'm ali's biggest fan fine. I like him fine as a fighter.

I was in my teens at the time, and was alive and interested in the fight when it happened.

If you think I'm an idiot, well I guess I have to endure your keen sense of fair and balanced judgment.

If you think you "know" all the facts. Good for you! Be happy in that knowledge.

I do not know the full truth of the matter. However I do enjoy a good mystery, and I have taken much time to sort through the various documentation that exists around this fight. The hardest part for many to assess is the actual shot itself, and what the physics may or may not represent. Many like yourself believe there simply was not enough contact to create any sort of head trauma, or discombobulation. I can tell you with certainty that such is NOT the case.

I'll leave it for folks like you with superior intelligence to discern the "truth" from the various facts that can be demonstrated. But many KD's in boxing are surrounded with just such "lack of confidence" following such a shot. But none have been quite so politicized and scrutinized.

If this was Zora Foley vs Eddie Machen, I think I might not be quite so suspect in your eyes as having an "agenda". Which honestly...I don't have. I have observed many many folks with head trauma of all manner, and I can speak rather "intelligently" to what may or may not occur when the ol bean gets disrespected. It can manifest in many ways.

BoxBuzz...I like you man and I didn't mean to insult you on a personal level I really didn't...it's just that to me that was an obvious dive...as obvious as it gets in fact. I just don't understand how anybody doesn't see it when they look at that fight.

[Giancarlo]

At least Nancy has the excuse that she suffers from micro-cephalism.

[BoxBuzz]

No offense taken really. I like the way you just put that. Good description from a "pop" point of view.

Occams razor may well favor my take.

It is the context that makes it so interesting. But I think a good CSI sort of dismantling takes some of the "romance" out of the moment. As interesting as we all would like it to be, I think it's a bit more boring than that.

I think the first fight can reduced down to something far more basic as well. But let's just take the second fight, Liston got taken out of his rhythm early, he had already been reduced to a bit of a laughing stock (from Liston's perception) last time he fought this man. Now he just got good and buzzed by that blow in the very first round....I suggest he could not "imagine" how he could win, and he simply choked in the clutch. Liston provided some pretty good proof in his life that he did not have a state of the art warrior mentality...even as tough as he was physically. And I would say he was one of the toughest.

A dive? Sure if you want to call it that, I would not disagree. But that word usually attributes some sort of "advance intent" and it is my belief that it had no other strings connected to it than Liston's own decision process. His own lack of faith developed at that moment, in his ability to carry on. Also, we all know how good Ali ended up proving himself to be. Seems to me Liston was just ahead of many of us (and he was in the best position to assess lol) in coming to this same conclusion.

[Ezzard]

No offense taken really. I like the way you just put that. Good description from a "pop" point of view.

Occams razor may well favor my take.

It is the context that makes it so interesting. But I think a good CSI sort of dismantling takes some of the "romance" out of the moment. As interesting as we all would like it to be, I think it's a bit more boring than that.

I think the first fight can reduced down to something far more basic as well. But let's just take the second fight, Liston got taken out of his rhythm early, he had already been reduced to a bit of a laughing stock (from Liston's perception) last time he fought this man. Now he just got good and buzzed by that blow in the very first round....I suggest he could not "imagine" how he could win, and he simply choked in the clutch. Liston provided some pretty good proof in his life that he did not have a state of the art warrior mentality...even as tough as he was physically. And I would say he was one of the toughest.

A dive? Sure if you want to call it that, I would not disagree. But that word usually attributes some sort of "advance intent" and it is my belief that it had no other strings connected to it than Liston's own decision process. His own lack of faith developed at that moment, in his ability to carry on. Also, we all know how good Ali ended up proving himself to be. Seems to me Liston was just ahead of many of us (and he was in the best position to assess lol) in coming to this same conclusion.

I always thought the first fight was more of a perception issue. Truth was Ali was an Olympic HW gold medallist and back then, if you were American, it almost guaranteed you holding the title for at least a little while. Ali was a much better fighter than people perceived from the Jones, Banks and Cooper fights. And it would become apparent later in his career that, like say Dempsey, he often struggled more with smaller guys than he did with the big boys.

So Ali was very underrated.

The you have Liston who had fought about 8 rounds in 4 years (can’t be bothered to look it up exactly). He had a big rep after having KO’d a small HW who already had a history of being KO’d. Add to this that Liston liked a drink etc…and you have a guy who was overrated, rusty and probably older than his years.

Public perception was way off kilter. When Ali beat him people thought it couldn’t be real.

Story goes that Liston trained like a Spartan for the rematch. It got cancelled due to injury and he lost his head of steam. There were threats and the rest…but I think Ali caught him with a flash shot…he went down legit…

After that I don’t know. On film it looks like Liston play acted being out…but maybe I’m wrong…it wouldn’t have changed the result had he got up. Liston had decided it was game over. And Ali was both better than Liston and Liston’s style was made for him.

[SteveO]

I think the punch certainly jolted Liston - you see his leg jump up. He was coming forward and the shot sprung out of nowhere, historically those ingredients have created knock downs or knock outs, regardless of how great the chin in.

Afterwards we see Liston could have continued, but seemed to want to get out of there. It was a strange and dangerous time in America, very hard for us to comprehend how Sonny felt in '65 all these decades later, having glib conversation on the internet.

[SteveO]

Story goes that Liston trained like a Spartan for the rematch. It got cancelled due to injury and he lost his head of steam. There were threats and the rest…but I think Ali caught him with a flash shot…he went down legit…

After that I don’t know. On film it looks like Liston play acted being out…but maybe I’m wrong…it wouldn’t have changed the result had he got up. Liston had decided it was game over. And Ali was both better than Liston and Liston’s style was made for him.

[gilgamesh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Jg7w#t=90s

[gilgamesh]

Ali backing up, throws the punch which clearly doesn't have much on it. Hell he hits Liston with way harder shots whenever he gets up and Liston takes them just fine.

I doubt that punch would've knocked out Amir Khan to be honest. It doesn't have much of anything on it, even if it did "Jolt" Liston enough to knock him down...which by the way I don't buy, but for the sake of argument we'll allow that possibility. He clearly just stays on the canvas when he could've got up all day long.

All I said was that it was a dive, I didn't say that Liston was "paid to take a dive" or anything like that...hell why would Ali or his people pay Liston to take a dive...he'd already beaten him.

Clearly though Liston wasn't legitimately knocked out, and he just gave up the fight with basically no effort. The question is why?

I've heard various theories ranging from: He was afraid that Muslims would shoot him...he was afraid that somebody was going to attempt to Shoot Ali and he may get caught in the crossfire...I wouldn't doubt he placed a bet on Ali to win via 1st round KO and made sure it happened.

Who really knows? I'll grant you guys that, we'll most likely never know the whole truth about this one, but clearly Liston wasn't legitimately knocked out. He took harder punches than that, in every fight he was ever in basically. He took WAY more punishment from Ali in the first bout and didn't go anywhere. Until he quit on his stool anyway.

[yancey]

Ali backing up, throws the punch which clearly doesn't have much on it. Hell he hits Liston with way harder shots whenever he gets up and Liston takes them just fine.

I doubt that punch would've knocked out Amir Khan to be honest. It doesn't have much of anything on it, even if it did "Jolt" Liston enough to knock him down...which by the way I don't buy, but for the sake of argument we'll allow that possibility. He clearly just stays on the canvas when he could've got up all day long.

All I said was that it was a dive, I didn't say that Liston was "paid to take a dive" or anything like that...hell why would Ali or his people pay Liston to take a dive...he'd already beaten him.

Clearly though Liston wasn't legitimately knocked out, and he just gave up the fight with basically no effort. The question is why?

I've heard various theories ranging from: He was afraid that Muslims would shoot him...he was afraid that somebody was going to attempt to Shoot Ali and he may get caught in the crossfire...I wouldn't doubt he placed a bet on Ali to win via 1st round KO and made sure it happened.

Who really knows? I'll grant you guys that, we'll most likely never know the whole truth about this one, but clearly Liston wasn't legitimately knocked out. He took harder punches than that, in every fight he was ever in basically. He took WAY more punishment from Ali in the first bout and didn't go anywhere. Until he quit on his stool anyway.

I don't think anyone here really thinks it was a legitimate KO. Well, maybe a bird brain like Giancarlo does, but he doesn't count.

I think the issue is whether or not it was a legitimate KD.

[Jaclem]

.....in my opinion..and it is an opinion...liston tanked the fight.

but, anyone who calls box buzz an idiot should have someone help him in reading buzz's post, as they require concentration and even have many words of more than one syllable..

[yancey]

.....in my opinion..and it is an opinion...liston tanked the fight.

but, anyone who calls box buzz an idiot should have someone help him in reading buzz's post, as they require concentration and even have many words of more than one syllable..

Sure, Liston tanked in the sense that he could have gotten up. He did a lousy acting job on the canvas.

But was the knockdown legitimate? That is the issue.

[gilgamesh]

.....in my opinion..and it is an opinion...liston tanked the fight.

but, anyone who calls box buzz an idiot should have someone help him in reading buzz's post, as they require concentration and even have many words of more than one syllable..

Sure, Liston tanked in the sense that he could have gotten up. He did a lousy acting job on the canvas.

But was the knockdown legitimate? That is the issue.

I don't think so.

[BoxBuzz]

Frame by frame would suggest it is