Power of Louis and Ali

[Giancarlo]

Frame by frame would suggest it is

Buzz, you're not supposed to actually watch the fight!

Why not be like Nancy and come in here boasting you haven't seen the fight for years but KNOW it was a dive blah blah blah?

Then get all bent out of shape when people laugh at you and liken you to a pinhead.

It might not sound like intelligent behaviour to you and me, Buzz, but Nancy always has a couple of semi-literate haters trailing behind him muttering "hallelujah!".

Perhaps that floats his boat. That and his laminated photo of Joe.

[Clint Magnum]

If it was a genuine knockdown from an amazing punch why didn't Ali throw that same shot again throughout his career. If he did then kindly tell me which fight.
Also tell me which fighter before or since has thrown this shot with such devastating effect??

I understand physics and the effects even a light shot can cause to the brain to create a knockout. However..if you use physics to try and affirm this was a genuinely effective punch sufficient to put Sonny Liston on his arse then you are not taking into account all physics in relation to concussion and the footage after the shot. If the shot was concussive enough then the fallen fighter would have to show some external distress to his core, ie loss of eye movement, disorientation and/or motor function or in laymans term "jelly in his legs."
Not only was Liston aware of the count, his legs held firmly his full bodyweight immediately after and for a good few seconds after he dropped. He is even seen to squat forward and hold his bodyweight, look up and then drop (not fall or stumble) back to the floor.
At no point did Liston show any classic signs of physical distress to show he'd suffered such a short term brain trauma from a punch consistent enought to wobble a man.
This coupled with the events leading up to and after the fight would strongly suggest Liston felt a shot which surprised him and used it as his opportunity to get out, of which, knowing what a warrior he was, it probably haunted him for years afterwards until his untimely death.
just my opinion though, so feel free to disagree but spare the childish abuse just cause you disagree.

[yancey]

If it was a genuine knockdown from an amazing punch why didn't Ali throw that same shot again throughout his career. If he did then kindly tell me which fight.
Also tell me which fighter before or since has thrown this shot with such devastating effect??

I understand physics and the effects even a light shot can cause to the brain to create a knockout. However..if you use physics to try and affirm this was a genuinely effective punch sufficient to put Sonny Liston on his arse then you are not taking into account all physics in relation to concussion and the footage after the shot. If the shot was concussive enough then the fallen fighter would have to show some external distress to his core, ie loss of eye movement, disorientation and/or motor function or in laymans term "jelly in his legs."
Not only was Liston aware of the count, his legs held firmly his full bodyweight immediately after and for a good few seconds after he dropped. He is even seen to squat forward and hold his bodyweight, look up and then drop (not fall or stumble) back to the floor.
At no point did Liston show any classic signs of physical distress to show he'd suffered such a short term brain trauma from a punch consistent enought to wobble a man.
This coupled with the events leading up to and after the fight would strongly suggest Liston felt a shot which surprised him and used it as his opportunity to get out, of which, knowing what a warrior he was, it probably haunted him for years afterwards until his untimely death.
just my opinion though, so feel free to disagree but spare the childish abuse just cause you disagree.

Excellent, well reasoned post.

And when you say in your last paragraph that Liston "felt a shot which surprised him and used it as an opportunity to get out", you are expressing exactly what I think went down that night. The pain Sonny must have been feeling with a jackass like Ali running around the ring acting the fool must have been damn near unbearable. Sadly, that moment surely stayed with him the rest of his life. RIP, Sonny.

[The Great John L]

Boxing is a sport of infinite angles and pressure points and no two punches are alike. Ali landed a clean shot flush on the chin of a lunging Liston that caused him to lose his balance and fall forward. Nothing strange or unusual about that.

I have no explanation for what took place from that point forward. 8)

[loaded_gloves]

If it was a genuine knockdown from an amazing punch why didn't Ali throw that same shot again throughout his career. If he did then kindly tell me which fight.

Probably one of the most naive things ever written on this forum.

You do realise this is boxing, not wrestling right? Fighters don't soften up their opponent to set them up for their patented 'finishing move'.

I never saw Floyd Patterson lay out another man whose leg started twitching violently like Ingo's did. Ingo must have been play acting in that case. Yeesh.

[yancey]

"Boxing is a sport of infinite angles and pressure points and no two punches are alike. Ali landed a clean shot flush on the chin of a lunging Liston that caused him to lose his balance and fall forward." The Great John L

I can accept this. Liston being off-balance and weight well forward likely had much to do with the "knockdown".

It gave Sonny his "out" and he went ahead and took the gas.

[BoxBuzz]

Boxing is a sport of infinite angles and pressure points and no two punches are alike. Ali landed a clean shot flush on the chin of a lunging Liston that caused him to lose his balance and fall forward. Nothing strange or unusual about that.

I have no explanation for what took place from that point forward. 8)

This.

Only Liston could explain....and not sure he ever went on the record to do so. Only rumors as to his reflective comments can be found.

[Ezzard]

When I watched the clip again I was even more confused as to what I think.

Best thing would be for Walcott and Fleischer to have let the fight continue and see what happened.

[The Great John L]

When I watched the clip again I was even more confused as to what I think.

Best thing would be for Walcott and Fleischer to have let the fight continue and see what happened.

Liston lost. The Sopranos is over. It's time to move on.

[Ezzard]

When I watched the clip again I was even more confused as to what I think.

Best thing would be for Walcott and Fleischer to have let the fight continue and see what happened.

Liston lost. The Sopranos is over. It's time to move on.

Okay then, Mr Sullivan...how about this?

1915, Havana...Johnson lying shielding his eyes from the sun???

C'mon, gimmee your best shot!

[The Great John L]

When I watched the clip again I was even more confused as to what I think.

Best thing would be for Walcott and Fleischer to have let the fight continue and see what happened.

Liston lost. The Sopranos is over. It's time to move on.

Okay then, Mr Sullivan...how about this?

1915, Havana...Johnson lying shielding his eyes from the sun???

C'mon, gimmee your best shot!

He was toast. Fat and over the hill, he outfought the giant Willard in the blazing sun before tiring and getting clipped.

Even a drunk will shield his eyes from direct sunlight. Very few people that take 10 counts are completely out of it, and JJ had just shot his wad against a guy that could take a beating.

Either that or he was poisoned like Wlad was against Brewster.

[BoxBuzz]

Human beings, they do the darndest things don't they?

Unpredictable as all get out. Especially in the varied semi concious states they can find themselves in, during the heat of a boxing match.

[The Great John L]

No boxer would fight 26 rounds in brutal heat and direct sunlight before throwing a fight. I could see a handful of rounds to possibly make it look more legit, but 26 rounds is over an hour and a half.

[Brutu]

Mike Tyson strikes"the Pose" The Jack Johnson pose
(for a couple of seconds anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM6QXfdeRMo

[Ezzard]

He was toast. Fat and over the hill, he outfought the giant Willard in the blazing sun before tiring and getting clipped.

Even a drunk will shield his eyes from direct sunlight. Very few people that take 10 counts are completely out of it, and JJ had just shot his wad against a guy that could take a beating.

Either that or he was poisoned like Wlad was against Brewster.

I agree on Johnson...and Wlad...

And where are you on the Berbick being gassed in his hotel room the night before the Tyson fight?

[Jaclem]

......johnson did not stay in that position for the full ten count. the rest of the film shows him turning over on his side.

there is snapshot of billy conn after being knocked out by joe louis in their second with billy on his back and shielding his eyes from...what? the moonlight?

[hhaehre]

.....in my opinion..and it is an opinion...liston tanked the fight.

but, anyone who calls box buzz an idiot should have someone help him in reading buzz's post, as they require concentration and even have many words of more than one syllable..

Sure, Liston tanked in the sense that he could have gotten up. He did a lousy acting job on the canvas.

But was the knockdown legitimate? That is the issue.

I think so. Short punch that a slightly off balance Liston didn't see sounds like the classic flash kd to me. Liston then, in the space of a second or two, decided not to get up. Who knows why, maybe he didn't even have an answer himself.

[Clint Magnum]

If it was a genuine knockdown from an amazing punch why didn't Ali throw that same shot again throughout his career. If he did then kindly tell me which fight.

Probably one of the most naive things ever written on this forum.

You do realise this is boxing, not wrestling right? Fighters don't soften up their opponent to set them up for their patented 'finishing move'.

I never saw Floyd Patterson lay out another man whose leg started twitching violently like Ingo's did. Ingo must have been play acting in that case. Yeesh.

Thanks for your straw man theory and on enlightening me on my lack of boxing nouse and explaining my "naivity" champ.
Floyd never lay out another man in the same devastating way but he most certainly threw the same punch repeatedly throughout his career.
Ali named his punch that dropped Liston as the "anchorpunch" and stated seriously and repeatedly numeorus times years afterwards that it was no fluke and was developed and practised regularly before the fight. Ali described how he would step back and throw the short punch, neither an upercut nor hook but an Anchor punch.
The point made was neither "naive" nor ignorant. If the Great man describes inventing a new punch to explain the whole Liston incident then I and many, many others, many of whom were present at the scene are entitled to be suspicious that it may have been a smoke screen and point retrospectively to ask of any other incident where this was used so effectively in either Ali or any other boxer's reptoire since. Or why coaches didn't grasp this amazing science defeating light punch and incorporate it in all future pugilisitc training methods. Why? Because it was a genuine (but light) punch that caught Liston off guard but the reality appears that Liston wasn't concussed by it, many believe he appeared to just use it as an opportunity to quit.
But in either event, accept my apology for apparently having written the most naive thing ever written on the forum.

[BoxBuzz]

Hawkins...I think Ali just exploited the moment and claimed the punch as something practiced. He was if nothing else a great self promoter......and their would be little reason to go WTF...how the hell did that happen? In the post fight excitement. However...you really can sense that within the context of the fight that's exactly what he was thinking.

My belief is as follows.

*High probability that Ali would have won that fight and he went in with that great confidence
*Liston went in with his psyche shaken from both the last fight and the delay
*Something very unusual happened in the first round where Liston's confidence was shaken further by a very bad balance moment combined with an odd set of physics that really did shake him despite the FACT that the punch thrown in and of itself may not have caused a lot of damage. Please consider:
1. The speed the punch was thrown,
2. Sonny was lurching forward with all his bulk
3. The precise spot the punch landed.

Perfect physics storm for the anomaly friends.

Now the proud fighter who really did have his bell rung and is highly disoriented just goes into "confusion and bad judgment" mode. He flat out believes he is going to go through another "death by a thousand cuts" ritual that happened the last time he crossed paths with this loudmouth. (Please don't take me literally regarding "fear of cuts" , Liston just has a loss of confidence breakdown, and can not find the reason or the will to take up the fight. Any way you slice this he is a beaten man.)

Dynamics that are NOT in play: I.M.H.O.
* A pre determined ending to a fight that Liston agreed to lose
* Conscious fear of the Mob aligned with threats of some sort
* Conscious fear of the Muslims aligned with threats of some sort.
* A bet that he places against himself via another

Just my opinion....and Liston seemingly never addressed this clearly in interviews.

[Clint Magnum]

Hawkins...I think Ali just exploited the moment and claimed the punch as something practiced. He was if nothing else a great self promoter......and their would be little reason to go WTF...how the hell did that happen? In the post fight excitement. However...you really can sense that within the context of the fight that's exactly what he was thinking.

My belief is as follows.

*High probability that Ali would have won that fight and he went in with that great confidence
*Liston went in with his psyche shaken from both the last fight and the delay
*Something very unusual happened in the first round where Liston's confidence was shaken further by a very bad balance moment combined with an odd set of physics that really did shake him despite the FACT that the punch thrown in and of itself may not have caused a lot of damage. Please consider:
1. The speed the punch was thrown,
2. Sonny was lurching forward with all his bulk
3. The precise spot the punch landed.

Perfect physics storm for the anomaly friends.

Now the proud fighter who really did have his bell rung and is highly disoriented just goes into "confusion and bad judgment" mode. He flat out believes he is going to go through another "death by a thousand cuts" ritual that happened the last time he crossed paths with this loudmouth. (Please don't take me literally regarding "fear of cuts" , Liston just has a loss of confidence breakdown, and can not find the reason or the will to take up the fight. Any way you slice this he is a beaten man.)

Dynamics that are NOT in play: I.M.H.O.
* A pre determined ending to a fight that Liston agreed to lose
* Conscious fear of the Mob aligned with threats of some sort
* Conscious fear of the Muslims aligned with threats of some sort.
* A bet that he places against himself via another

Just my opinion....and Liston seemingly never addressed this clearly in interviews.

I agree almost 100% (I'm hawkins by the way, just changed my username!) Just differ slightly on the severity of the "shaking" of Liston. I still think he got clipped off balance not particularly shaken. I also agree that Ali had Liston's number and the fight would have gone his way even if the fight had been allowed to continue. Liston's story is a sad but exciting one and I'd love to see a proper film of it! Might start a thread asking which Hollywood actor would take the lead!
D

[BoxBuzz]

This could be fiction, but it's about as believable scenario as you'll ever hear on the subject of Ali vs Liston.

Brother's Tale

"You still post on that boxing thread?"asked Willie
"Yeah. I'm on their now."
Willie was at the shoeshine stand sitting on a chair next to the door.He'd let his whiskers grow out.The steel gray of his beard went with the gnarled skin of his hands. When he talked you could see a couple of gold teeth in front. When I walked down State Street I'd always stop to say hello. Sometimes I'd get a shine.
"So what are you arguing about now?"he asked me.
"We've got this thing going whether the punch Ali hit Liston with in the second fight was a phantom punch or not."
"How many times has that been beat around?"
"About a million."
"So what do you think?"
"I think it was a real punch."
"That punch couldn't have broken a egg,"said Willie smiling.
"Dundee said it was real."
"What else is he gonna' say?"
"I'm having an argument with this one guy on that thread who I'd like to kick his ass."
"Nobody ever changes their minds on that stuff. They think they know it all."
"So do you think the fight was fixed?"
"No,but I know what really happened. It was all quite simple."
I climbed up onto the seat in Willie's booth and asked for a shine. I wanted to hear what he had to say.
"You see I was close to Liston's family in Arkansas. That's were we're from. Farmers in Arkansas."
"Didn't he have a lot of brothers and sisters?"
"They stopped counting after 20."
"So how do you know about his second fight with Ali?"
"Sonny told his brother the story and he told me."
Willie put the cardboard inserts in my shoes and opened a can of clear polish.
"Remember the first fight,?" asked Willie starting to smear the polish around my shoes.
"Sure.We all saw that."
"Sonny couldn't pin Ali down. Ali was simply too fast. The only time Liston got close to him is when he rubbed his shoulder full of linament in his eyes.When that didn't work,Liston quit in his corner. He knew he was going to be stopped. Humiliated."
"So how does that connect to the second fight?"
"This is the way his brother ran it down to me. Liston figured that if Ali knew he was hurt real bad,he get in their and finish him off. Liston knew that then he could reach him and could hit him with his bombs. Ali would come to him."
"I'm beginning to see the picture."
"So Sonny wanted to pull this off when he's fresh. He waits for Ali to land something in the first round and then falls down rolling around like he was shot."
"Go on."
"But when Ali sees Sonny rolling around he stands over him instead of going to a neutral corner."
Willie stopped shining my shoes for a moment.
"Sonny was listening to Walcott's count.He got up in time. But that little prick Nat Fleischer had to butt in and tells that dummy Walcott that Liston had been down for too long. So Walcott waves it off."
"Amazing."
"The first thing Ali asked Dundee was if the fight was fixed. He knew he didn't hit him that hard."
"So why didn't this come out before?"
"Who in the hell would believe it? "
"Liston never talked about it."
"If he did,they would of laughed him out of town. It ruined him anyway."
Willie began slapping the rag on top of my shoes.
"Maybe I'll put that on the thread,"I said.
"If you do,don't tell 'em I told you."



Sonny Liston