Henry Coopers Weight!

josh fg · Post by **josh fg** » 24 Oct 2005, 07:28

Was just looking at his record on Boxrec and henry cooper's record and he seemed to fight around 13 and a half stone, when did the heavy weight limit change to 15

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2005, 07:43

Is there a heavy limit? Thought you could come in as light as you want - Cooper was a cruiseweight really, no doubt he'd have a been a champ at that weight, as long as it wasn't someone like Holyfield in the other corner.

Woller · Post by **Woller** » 24 Oct 2005, 07:44

There were no Cruiserweight division at that time. Every fighter above 175 lbs was a heavyweight.

Søren Woller

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2005, 07:46

Woller wrote:There were no Cruiserweight division at that time. Every fighter above 175 lbs was a heavyweight.

Søren Woller

Yes I know, but wasn't cruiserweight invented about a 100 years ago, and then abandoned? Seem to recall reading that....

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2005, 07:46

In fact, maybe lightheavy used to be called cruiser......

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Oct 2005, 07:54

Yes Cruiserweight was around back in the day, but was never popular.

Fact is, anyone UNDER the heavyweight limit can fight for the heavyweight title, same with any title. The only stipulation is that they give up the lighter belt if they want to retain the heavyweight title.

Wales · Post by **Wales** » 24 Oct 2005, 08:01

I believe the governing boby in question has to sanction the fight if the fighter is under the 200lb cruiser limit ??

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 24 Oct 2005, 09:04

MightyWarrior wrote:Is there a heavy limit? Thought you could come in as light as you want - Cooper was a cruiseweight really, no doubt he'd have a been a champ at that weight, as long as it wasn't someone like Holyfield in the other corner.

I don't think at any stage Cooper would have been considered better than the best LHWs. Archie Moore and Ezard Charles were clearly better at the beggining of his career and Bob Foster was at a better level towars the end of his career.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2005, 09:53

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Is there a heavy limit? Thought you could come in as light as you want - Cooper was a cruiseweight really, no doubt he'd have a been a champ at that weight, as long as it wasn't someone like Holyfield in the other corner.
I don't think at any stage Cooper would have been considered better than the best LHWs. Archie Moore and Ezard Charles were clearly better at the beggining of his career and Bob Foster was at a better level towars the end of his career.

No I mean cruisers - obviously you have some great fighters at 175, but.......cruiserweights?? Some of the most forgetable champions ever have won titles there. No reason Henry's left hook couldn't have won him a title or two there I think.

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 24 Oct 2005, 10:03

I think its fair to say Rocky Marciano was probably the greatest Cruiserweight? Given he usually tipped up at 185-190?

Holyfield runs him close I guess.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 24 Oct 2005, 10:47

DavidPayne wrote:I think its fair to say Rocky Marciano was probably the greatest Cruiserweight? Given he usually tipped up at 185-190?

Holyfield runs him close I guess.

Both a Pre ban Ali and Joe Louis could have made 190lbs I am sure!!!!!

Ali was 210 when he fought Liston and Louis was high 190's......

the weigh ins back then were just before the fights i believe

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 24 Oct 2005, 12:07

Marciano v Holyfield would have been a real tear up. Charles was a very similar fighter, though perhaps not as tough, and he couldn't beat Marciano.

Moore actually outweighed Marciano I believe when they fought.

Is there any footage of Moore's knockdown of Marciano? Moore always claimed Marciano was in La-La land before the ref stepped in and gave an incorrect standing 8 count.

Moore sure could punch, because nobody else really put a dent in Marciano as far as I recall.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 24 Oct 2005, 13:17

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Charles was a very similar fighter, though perhaps not as tough, and he couldn't beat Marciano..

To be fair by the time Charles faced Marciano he was about 8 years past his best and about 10ibs over his best fighting weight, he had had a very long and hard career and yet still gave Marciano two of his hardest fight. Charles was at his best when competiting around the Light-Heavyweight limit and consistantly beating the likes of Charley Burley, Lloyd Marshell, Jimmy Bivins, Archie Moore, Joey Maxim and Elmer Ray. From what I have read and heard Ezzard Charles was a much better fighter at Middle and Light-Heavyweight than he was at Heavyweight. He just never got a title shot at the lighter weights.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Is there any footage of Moore's knockdown of Marciano? Moore always claimed Marciano was in La-La land before the ref stepped in and gave an incorrect standing 8 count..

Yes there is, I have the fight on tape, going from memory I can't recall anything wrong with the count, but the Rock was indeed hurt.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Moore sure could punch, because nobody else really put a dent in Marciano as far as I recall.

Jersey Joe dropped the Rock in the first round of their first fight, but he looked more hurt against Moore.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 24 Oct 2005, 14:29

MightyWarrior wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Is there a heavy limit? Thought you could come in as light as you want - Cooper was a cruiseweight really, no doubt he'd have a been a champ at that weight, as long as it wasn't someone like Holyfield in the other corner.
I don't think at any stage Cooper would have been considered better than the best LHWs. Archie Moore and Ezard Charles were clearly better at the beggining of his career and Bob Foster was at a better level towars the end of his career.
No I mean cruisers - obviously you have some great fighters at 175, but.......cruiserweights?? Some of the most forgetable champions ever have won titles there. No reason Henry's left hook couldn't have won him a title or two there I think.

The point is if the LHWs of the time could beat him he wouldn't be a champ the division up. If Crusers were around in Henrys time he'd have the likes of Marciano, Paterson, Jimmy Young, Quarry, Jimmy Ellis to compete with

Crusers weren't around then - they've only been around since the 80s and we've had Holyfield, Toney, Jirov, Gomez and now Mormeck and co. Its not a bad division just a young one

I just don't think Cooper was world class.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 24 Oct 2005, 14:33

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Marciano v Holyfield would have been a real tear up. Charles was a very similar fighter, though perhaps not as tough, and he couldn't beat Marciano.

Moore actually outweighed Marciano I believe when they fought.

Is there any footage of Moore's knockdown of Marciano? Moore always claimed Marciano was in La-La land before the ref stepped in and gave an incorrect standing 8 count.

Moore sure could punch, because nobody else really put a dent in Marciano as far as I recall.

I'd also like to see footage of Moore-Marciano because from what I've heard the Ref completely robbed Moore of a 1st round KO.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 24 Oct 2005, 14:34

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Marciano v Holyfield would have been a real tear up. Charles was a very similar fighter, though perhaps not as tough, and he couldn't beat Marciano.

Moore actually outweighed Marciano I believe when they fought.

Is there any footage of Moore's knockdown of Marciano? Moore always claimed Marciano was in La-La land before the ref stepped in and gave an incorrect standing 8 count.

Moore sure could punch, because nobody else really put a dent in Marciano as far as I recall.
I'd also like to see footage of Moore-Marciano because from what I've heard the Ref completely robbed Moore of a 1st round KO.

The highlighted version is pretty easy to get hold of.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2005, 16:20

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: The point is if the LHWs of the time could beat him he wouldn't be a champ the division up. If Crusers were around in Henrys time he'd have the likes of Marciano, Paterson, Jimmy Young, Quarry, Jimmy Ellis to compete with

Crusers weren't around then - they've only been around since the 80s and we've had Holyfield, Toney, Jirov, Gomez and now Mormeck and co. Its not a bad division just a young one

I just don't think Cooper was world class.

You really think guys like Marciano would've been content to win a cruiser title, rather than the richest prize in sport? My point is the elite would've been at 200 plus, going for the big one.
Guys like Cooper would've stepped down and made a career in a smaller pond. Just take a look at old Glen McCrory for a good example.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 24 Oct 2005, 16:22

And yes Marciano was out of it when he got up from the Moore knockdown. Not sure, but I seem to recall Moore complaining about the ref's handling of that knockdown. There is footage of it around, part of the Clayton collection I think.