Joe Calzaghe : Has Froch's leagacy now overtaken Joe's ?

[Quixall]

Has Carl Froch's legacy now overtaken that of Joe Calzaghe's ?

I feel that Carl's leagacy has now gone beyond that of Calzaghe's. I don't place much credence on unbeaten fighting records, because that can say as much about match making, as it can about your ability. For me, Calzaghe's reputation was built on the back of three things. Firstly, he was unbeaten. Secondly, he beat Kessler, when Kessler was in his prime years and thirdly, he beat two names in Hopkins and Jones. The first has been answered. I think he gains genuine credability for beating Kessler in his prime. I think that Jones was shot to pieces and that the Hopkins win shouldn't be hailed as highly as it seems to have been. Hopkins is a tricky opponent in many respects, but he is still an old fighter. He was an old fighter when Calzaghe fought him and it was a close fight in my eyes. It felt to me that he beat the name and not the man, in that the Hopkins that Joe fought wasn't the guy who fought Trinidad or Oscar, but neverless was still capable and is still capable of beating younger fighters. Bika was a decent name and Lacy was a guy with a big reputation who had yet to fight outside of his comfort zone. Though Joe destroyed him, it just seemed to prove that the hype wasn't justified in the first place.

Froch isn't unbeaten. Does that matter ? Not to me. He has lost to two exceptional fighters, one for whom he has just sought a succesful revengence in Kessler. The other, Andre Ward, for me is a very talented fighter and one that i feel Carl will never beat on the basis that Carl is too limited technically. However, Carl has done things that Joe hasn't done. Carl has fought back to back fights against genuine world class fighters, in their primes for the most part and has travelled away from his own country to do so. He has fought Kessler twice, Taylor, Ward, Dirrell, Johnson, Abraham and Bute. These list of fighters in my opinion are ahead of the fighters that Joe fought in his career. Carl's Johnson is equal to Joe's Jones. Carl's Dirrel is equal to Joe's Bika. They both fought Kessler and maybe Joe has the edge because he beat him when he was undefeated and the first time around. I would say that Jermaine Taylor at the time he fought Carl was a more dangerous opponent than Joe fighting Hopkins. Overall, Carl has fought more genuine world championship fighters and at a time in their careers when they were still "live". He has also comeback from two defeats, which for me says a lot about a fighter.

For me, Carl has not ducked opponents. He has travelled to other people's home cities to take on genuine world operators. Calzaghe fought three named fighters in Jones, Hopkins and Kessler. Froch was fought six named fighters in Bute, Taylor, Kessler, Johnson, Ward and Abraham. Froch fought these fighters back to back over a two year period, not taking any easy interim fights, though i guess that was contractual because of the super six set up, but the point still stands. Froch came back from two defeats, so was challenged mentally and prevailed. Froch went back in with one of his main rivals and won a re-match. Froch to me, though this is perhaps outside of the deabte, is an exciting fighter to watch. I think he perhaps lacks some of the technical subtleties of Calzaghe, but from a fans point of view, i think his fights generate more excitement, akin to the Benn / Eubank / Watson days. I also recognise that the Jones and Hopkins fights for Calzaghe were at light heavyweight and not super middleweight, but have to be included to have a wholesome debate.

I think Froch edges it.

How do you see it ?

[Quixall]

My dad's car is bigger than your dad's car................etc etc

I knew you would post and if my thread is predictable, your post as sure as hell is..............

Iv'e hurt your feelings so you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

If i say 2+2 is 4, you will say it's 67.8, and on and on and on and on and on and on zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

This debate has moved on since Froch has been in the super six. He has beaten Bute and now Kessler, will perhaps have a couple more fights and retire, so his legacy is well worth debating again and can be put in a proper context against Calzaghe's because effectivelyCarl is now approaching the end of his fighting career.

[Trojans44]

Pretty much agree with you. Froch has achieved more and has a better record. But Calzaghe was a much, much better fighter and in my opinion would have beat Froch quite easily.

[Quixall]

Pretty much agree with you. Froch has achieved more and has a better record. But Calzaghe was a much, much better fighter and in my opinion would have beat Froch quite easily.

Yeah, i would agree with that. Calzaghe was a more technical fighter and would have achieved similar results to what Ward did against Froch. That is why i think that Carl will not be Ward in any re-match. I would like to see it, but i doubt it. Calzaghe was a vague combination of the best of Kessler and the best of Ward, however, like you, i feel that Froch has a better overal record. More fullfilled than Joe's. When Carl retires, you will no he left it all in the ring, where as with Joe, i always felt he could have done more and left it till late in his career to really show himself to the boxing world.

[Horse]

Should Froch be considered a top 10 British ATG?

[Quixall]

Should Froch be considered a top 10 British ATG?

Depends on how far back you want to go doesn't it ?

These things are always subjective and there would be a lot of great names that could fill the top ten

Do you think he eclipses Calzaghe and do you think he warents a top ten placing ? Two different questions really.

[Deserter]

When Carl retires, you will no he left it all in the ring, where as with Joe, i always felt he could have done more and left it till late in his career to really show himself to the boxing world.

This hits the nail on the head for me. I've always been a Calzaghe fan, but Froch, while the inferior boxer, has overtaken Joe's legacy/achievements because of that greater desire.
He's also overtaken the likes of Eubank, Benn etc and surely has to at the very least be considered when weighing up any all-time British top 10?

[Quixall]

When Carl retires, you will no he left it all in the ring, where as with Joe, i always felt he could have done more and left it till late in his career to really show himself to the boxing world.

This hits the nail on the head for me. I've always been a Calzaghe fan, but Froch, while the inferior boxer, has overtaken Joe's legacy/achievements because of that greater desire.
He's also overtaken the likes of Eubank, Benn etc and surely has to at the very least be considered when weighing up any all-time British top 10?

I would say he was in the top 10 of the all time British list.

I too think that Calzaghe was the better boxer, but Froch fought more world champions, over a shorter time period and travelled over seas aswell. Calzaghe could have challenged himslef a lot more and should have arrived in America a lot sooner than he did.

[Newport Daz]

I think Froch's legacy absolutly surpasses Calzaghe's, for me there's no real debate. However, like everyone else, I agree that Joe was better than Carl. When Carl retires he can say he fought the best, didn't duck anyone and put it all on the line. I would say Carl is now a cert for the IBHOF

[daviddee]

Calzaghe's gets a hard time he was a far superior boxer than Froch and would have schooled him easily.. He also moved up and fought and beat everyone at light heavy. If Froch wants to be considered in the same breath as Joe he would need to step up!! If he was to do that he would get beat. Can stay around at Super Middle and wait to get beat by Groves and Degale or move up and take a chance. How schooled Kessler in Kesslers prime was a close fight last night

[Horse]

Calzaghe's gets a hard time he was a far superior boxer than Froch and would have schooled him easily.. He also moved up and fought and beat everyone at light heavy. If Froch wants to be considered in the same breath as Joe he would need to step up!! If he was to do that he would get beat. Can stay around at Super Middle and wait to get beat by Groves and Degale or move up and take a chance. How schooled Kessler in Kesslers prime was a close fight last night

Awful post.

[desperados]

I don't believe Froch at any point in his career has ever been the #1 fighter in his division.

sure, he may be unlucky to be around at a time where he has the p4p best in his division, but never-the-less he's never earned the no.1 spot. And only last night has really been able to grab no.2 spot.

[Autobarn]

it would be interesting if froch can avenge both defeats. after kessler, last night, then ward. that would be something, saying he could beat every man he faced.

that'd be up there with joe, who has an undefeated record, albeit with 2 very narrow wins (reid and hopkins) that some (not me) dispute.

froch must be the hardest british boxer of the past few decades. his gruelling fights, long list of world class opponents and the number of injuries, have been enough to ruin some terrific talents from the UK.

[Syntax Error]

Good post Quixall.

I can see what you're getting at & I'm in broad agreement with you.

It's almost a paradox in that I think Calzaghe is better than Froch & would have beaten him had they both fought each other in their peaks, but Froch's resume is superior.

[ScottDetonator]

Can Joe be tempted back for one big decider? Slim chance I know, but still a chance if the money is right.

[Syntax Error]

Can Joe be tempted back for one big decider? Slim chance I know, but still a chance if the money is right.

Joe Calzaghe is well out of boxing now.

I can't see any amount of money tempting him back.

[davie]

I'm now at the point where i just can't split them

froch does have a better list of opponents
but he has been defeated and for all an 0 can indicate a padded record or good matchmaking, staying undefeated at world title level for as long as joe did, is still sone achievement even if he didn't perhaps meet the very best every fihht

your legacy is mainly down to the fights you were in (carl wins that one) and the results you had, but i think we have to take ability into account here and joe was better, most here seem to agree on that, carl would have likely lost to joe, prime vs prime.

Both were in entertaining fights but froch has to edge that one with some of his wars, particularly vs kessler

and of course kessler has to come into the equation. i reckon if calzaghe fought him twice he'd have won both. and against a younger, arguably better version of the dane.

There are just too many variables where i'm putting a tick in joes box then the next one it's a tick for carl.

I've always leaned towards calzaghe, even with froch's very good fight history. but beating an outstanding opponent i a fight of the year rematch and avenging one of your only loses, for me, brings him level.


A win against ward would nick it, but i dont believe carl is capable.
And another win against kessler, perhaps at a neutral venue, as much as i'd love to see it... would prove nothing.

[Deserter]

Calzaghe's gets a hard time he was a far superior boxer than Froch and would have schooled him easily.. He also moved up and fought and beat everyone at light heavy.

Err... Calzaghe only had two fights at light heavy, against Hopkins and Jones. Didn't face Tarver, Dawson or Johnson, so how can you say what you've said?

[lillywhite14]

Pretty much echoing what has been said. Froch has the better legacy yet Joe was the better fighter and I would fancy him to beat Carl prime for prime although it wouldn't be nearly as one sided as some seem to think. Bika and Salem were awkward, tough fighters who Joe had a few problems with. Froch is a fvcking hard nights work for anyone!

Joe didn't school Kessler. Far from it. He was exceptional that night and won the fight over the last four rounds but he never schooled him.

[Lenny]

Pretty much echoing what has been said. Froch has the better legacy yet Joe was the better fighter and I would fancy him to beat Carl prime for prime although it wouldn't be nearly as one sided as some seem to think. Bika and Salem were awkward, tough fighters who Joe had a few problems with. Froch is a fvcking hard nights work for anyone!

Joe didn't school Kessler. Far from it. He was exceptional that night and won the fight over the last four rounds but he never schooled him.

Bingo!

[Jeff Thomas]

Froch's career is far superior to Calzaghes IMO

Two great fighters but froch was more interested in earning his greatness

[Quixall]

Calzaghe's gets a hard time he was a far superior boxer than Froch and would have schooled him easily.. He also moved up and fought and beat everyone at light heavy. If Froch wants to be considered in the same breath as Joe he would need to step up!! If he was to do that he would get beat. Can stay around at Super Middle and wait to get beat by Groves and Degale or move up and take a chance. How schooled Kessler in Kesslers prime was a close fight last night

Fought everyone at light heavy ? Are you sure about that ? What do you mean when you say that Carl needs to step up ? Move to light heavyweight you mean ? Well, a catch weight fight with Hopkins is possibly on the card. There wasn't an Andre Ward around when Calzaghe was fighting in his prime. You could argue about when certain windows of opportunity were available to Joe to fight Hopkins and Jones, but when he fought them both, they were nowhere near what Andre Ward represents to the division today, ie, Jones and Hopkins were past their sell by dates, Ward is in his prime. Beat by Groves and Degale ? You being serious now ? Calzaghe would have beaten Carl i believe, but wouldn't have schooled him.

[Trojans44]

Something worth considering in this is that Calzaghe was ring champ in 2 weight classes. He also beat Kessler comfortably. Calzaghe is ahead of Froch in any best UK boxer list but Froch has faced every challenge and fought at the very highest level.

[Quixall]

I don't believe Froch at any point in his career has ever been the #1 fighter in his division.

sure, he may be unlucky to be around at a time where he has the p4p best in his division, but never-the-less he's never earned the no.1 spot. And only last night has really been able to grab no.2 spot.

I think that a Ward will always have Froch's number. It's not a style that Carl will do well against. Fighting a guy like ward takes Carl outside of his comfort zone too much. The style of fight he used against Bute for instance wouldn't work at all against Ward and yet this is the Carl Froch blueprint. Kessler negated that style to a degree last night, but i think Kessler is slightly over the hill and his inactivity cost him i think.

[Quixall]

Good post Quixall.

I can see what you're getting at & I'm in broad agreement with you.

It's almost a paradox in that I think Calzaghe is better than Froch & would have beaten him had they both fought each other in their peaks, but Froch's resume is superior.

I think their is broad agreement on this Syntax. I don't know what stopped Calzaghe from moving out of the comfort earlier. From what i can remember, wasn't he the king of the WBO belt and just kept on defending that title through Warren ? Carl came out of his comfort zone a lot earlier in his career. The super six tournament was terrific for Carl and everything has followed on from that really.