Froch/Kessler and undercard RBR.

[Butterbean]

Why dont u us guys claiming ward isnt fighting at home, explain to me why, when watching bouts from the us, featuring a us fighter fighting a non us citizen, you always hear the crowd chanting;" USA USA USA".

name a specific bout where you heard that outside of the olympics.

Go on tube and watch cunningham vs fury for example ! Mr. Inferior complex guy. Youre funny. Starting world wars... Hmmm, coming from a citizen in a fascist country, that by far outscores anyother country/empire in the history of mankind when it comes to waging war, attacking othher countries, causing civilian casualties, occupying foreign territories etc. And its all been done in less than a hundred years. And of course, when us sportsmen fight within the borders of the country they are representing, they are not fighting at home, of course. And no, you people are NOT natinalistic in any ways. At all, are you now. "Either you are with us, or you are against us"... Funny peolpe you are

[Butterbean]

Why dont u us guys claiming ward isnt fighting at home, explain to me why, when watching bouts from the us, featuring a us fighter fighting a non us citizen, you always hear the crowd chanting;" USA USA USA".

name a specific bout where you heard that outside of the olympics.

Well, this should close the case once and for all.

Jerrmaine Taylor Vs Carl Froch.


Crowd chanting 'USA' in round 3 as Froch is on the floor.

Also, it was 1500 miles away from Little Rock, so according to some, should have been a 'neutral' venue.

Please answer mr. Complex guy, please

[Butterbean]

ok, good call if that's how it went down. i honestly have watched hundreds of pro fights
over the decades and have never heard it once. for some reason when you said that it
made me laugh because it's so absurd to chant that it's almost funny.
i'll try to look into why they did that but i'm sure there was a story behind it. to say that
is a regular occurance is just not very familiar with american reality. half the people in my
neighborhood, and most of the hoods i have lived in, have been people born somewhere else
and if you add in where the parents were born that's most people. outside the olympics
where people are competing for their countries, i honestly have never heard it and no way
is that a common thing, certainly not to the extent it takes place in euroland[/quote]


Hey, mr. Complex guy, people in europe dont shout or chant their countrynames in boxing fights, they root for the fighter. And you have been to hundreds and hundreds of fights in the us, and never experienced it, but out the top of our heads two european warmongorers gives you two different examples. Then you claim that, that is what we do in europe. You, indeed, are really funny.

[sucracristo]

Bradley - Provodnikov had plenty of USA USA chants. Retarded Americans still think the Cold War is on.

funny because i watched that fight on tv and i didn't hear that at all. to the contrary,
there were lots of russians at that fight chanting things in russian. i don't remember
what they were chanting at the moment and i used to speak a little russian so
maybe i could go back and figure it out, but when did brits become these whiney
complainey bithes, or is it just a few dominating boxrec? when bradley got dropped
in the 3rd, some were shouting "bradley" to encourage him to fight back.
nobody yelled usa. it's like brits have turned into french and can't find their midol.

[sucracristo]

coming from a citizen in a fascist country, that by far outscores anyother country/empire in the history of mankind when it comes to waging war, attacking othher countries, causing civilian casualties, occupying foreign territories etc. And its all been done in less than a hundred years.

you must be an oxford history professor

[Butterbean]

[/quote]

froch was wearing union jack trunks and taylor was wearing american flag trunks
and the whole thing was being played up as part of the promotion. it's a good call
that you actually came up with a fight where usa was chanted in an american boxing
match, though, because the original comment from someone else, can't remember,
said it happened in every fight and i couldn't remember ANY. that said, again, it
was being promoted as usa vs uk, like the contender uk challenge in nottingham
when you had all the comments about spanking yanks, etc. it's just part of the
hype for a specific event and you would be hard pressed to EVER hear that under
normal circumstances during ANY athletic event in the usa. it just doesn't happen[/quote]

Impressive... Just doesnt happen...? Are you trollin here, drunk or still being funny. The level of obvious contradiction in your point of wievs are amazing

[Butterbean]

Bradley - Provodnikov had plenty of USA USA chants. Retarded Americans still think the Cold War is on.

funny because i watched that fight on tv and i didn't hear that at all. to the contrary,
there were lots of russians at that fight chanting things in russian. i don't remember
what they were chanting at the moment and i used to speak a little russian so
maybe i could go back and figure it out, but when did brits become these whiney
complainey bithes, or is it just a few dominating boxrec? when bradley got dropped
in the 3rd, some were shouting "bradley" to encourage him to fight back.
nobody yelled usa. it's like brits have turned into french and can't find their midol.

You cant hear whole fvucing venue chanting usa, but you can hear the russians chanting something.... Are you ok you think ?

[Butterbean]

coming from a citizen in a fascist country, that by far outscores anyother country/empire in the history of mankind when it comes to waging war, attacking othher countries, causing civilian casualties, occupying foreign territories etc. And its all been done in less than a hundred years.

you must be an oxford history professor

And because you are shown some basic elementary historical facts,that everyone else on the planet knows, except the wast majority of the indoktrinated americans, you pull out the, "id better make fun it" tool, to hide your stupidity.

Dumbass

[sucracristo]

but out the top of our heads two european warmongorers gives you two different examples...
Please answer mr. Complex guy, please

wow are you shot out of a cannon. i picture you in tears banging on your keyboard.
take a deep breath. perhaps change out your tampax, take a bubble bath, and read the
rest of the thread before you type something. i responded to things that you are screaming
for me to respond to before you have even read all the way down. nobody really care about
britian. it's not a big deal. you have this imaginary rivalry in your head like anybody in the
united states is concerned about you at all. you're really quite inconsequential. no sense
getting all crybaby about it. nobody was yelling usa at the bradley provodnikov fight.
and please don't kick your cat.

[crusader]

I doubt the location of Froch-Ward provided either fighter with an advantage in the ring, so the bout was fought on neutral grounds in my view, and I consider the fight a good indicator of how the boxers compare without either receiving advantages not related to their abilities. Neutrality is a lack of partiality or bias, and I don't think there was much of that in the fight; the crowd and the officials weren't biased in favor of Ward, if anything Froch had more support and two judges were generous to him, and Ward was also less experienced in Atlantic City than Froch was, so I don't think the location meshed better with Ward's experience than Froch's experience.

Given that Ward didn't have more crowd support, given that he didn't benefit from unfair officiating, and given that he wasn't more accustomed to the venue, I don't think the location impacted what occurred in the bout. I say that post hoc though, and I think it would've been reasonable to expect prior to the fight that the location would be more beneficial to Ward than Froch. However, in evaluating the fairness of the bout's location, I think how the bout was actually impacted by location outweighs what could've been expected, so that I don't think the location was ultimately unfair or that Ward owes Froch a rematch in England to 'even things up'.

In considering whether a bout was fought on neutral grounds, I think it's mistaken to always make the country of the bout's occurrence the primary determinant of neutrality. If you do, you'd have to absurdly hold that a bout in Atlantic City was held in a venue non-neutral in Ward's favor, even if everyone in the crowd supported Froch, even if every official was unfairly biased in favor of Froch, and even if Froch had fought in Atlantic City 20 times and Ward had never fought there. I don't see why the country of the bout's occurrence should always be the sole determinant of neutrality or even the primary determinant of neutrality when there are many other factors that can be more important in determining if either fighter will benefit from the bout's location.

[Butterbean]

but out the top of our heads two european warmongorers gives you two different examples...
Please answer mr. Complex guy, please

wow are you shot out of a cannon. i picture you in tears banging on your keyboard.
take a deep breath. perhaps change out your tampax, take a bubble bath, and read the
rest of the thread before you type something. i responded to things that you are screaming
for me to respond to before you have even read all the way down. nobody really care about
britian. it's not a big deal. you have this imaginary rivalry in your head like anybody in the
united states is concerned about you at all. you're really quite inconsequential. no sense
getting all crybaby about it. nobody was yelling usa at the bradley provodnikov fight.
and please don't kick your cat.

Youre going of topic here arent you. Just answer the questions u are asked and prove the points u stick out. And im not british... A us fighter fightin a foreigner on us soil is at home. Its a fact. What ever u may claim otherwise is just stupid.

[sucracristo]

Given that Ward didn't have more crowd support, given that he didn't benefit from unfair officiating, and given that he wasn't more accustomed to the venue, I don't think the location impacted what occurred in the bout.

what about the language barrier? froch doesn't speak american. that had to cost him at least a few rounds

[Rover]

Given that Ward didn't have more crowd support, given that he didn't benefit from unfair officiating, and given that he wasn't more accustomed to the venue, I don't think the location impacted what occurred in the bout.

what about the language barrier? froch doesn't speak american. that had to cost him at least a few rounds

[dajuggernaut]

coming from a citizen in a fascist country, that by far outscores anyother country/empire in the history of mankind when it comes to waging war, attacking othher countries, causing civilian casualties, occupying foreign territories etc. And its all been done in less than a hundred years.

you must be an oxford history professor

[Emil]

Jerrmaine Taylor Vs Carl Froch.

Bradley - Provodnikov had plenty of USA USA chants. Retarded Americans still think the Cold War is on.

But if they had a rematch in Russia according to some people here it would be a neutral venue.

[dajuggernaut]

You're really slow.

[Blodhemn]

I'm not talking about promoters, I'm simply talking about so called boxing fans, who care more about the money of their favorite boxers than the actual boxing itself. So n so won't fight....cos of the taxes!

i'm sorry to break this to you but your feelings are not their priority.
i know that hurts to consider, but millions of dollars affect sporting event decisions.
isn't this supposed to be all about the love?

I'm still upset from knowing nothing about Euro tennis players.

[Emil]

I appreciate your observation of how eclectic the US is. However, fighting in the US is definitely home compared to fighting abroad. West coast or East coast, both coasts are still a very similar venue compared to fighting in the UK, or any other foreign location. I have been from coast to coast, and overseas. The familiarity of being in the states is the same in Cali as it is in NC, give some small details when considering the differences between nations. In that sense, Ward definitely has a hometown advantage when fighting someone from Nottingham.

[Lenny Cravats]

It's more than about the crowd though, D.

If I was to schedule a fight against Arthur Abraham in my back garden he'd bring more fans than I would, I'd still be at home.

[dajuggernaut]

I think distance/crowd go hand in hand.

Froch can fight practically anywhere in the UK and while the distance might be far from Nottingham, he will always have the crowd against a USA fighter. Always.

Ward didn't have the crowd, in the sense where it was a factor and you could tell. Like mentioned before, every state could practically be their own country around here. Just because we're bound to being part of the United States means little. A guy doesn't take a 5 and a half hour flight with little to no support for a home fight.

[crusader]

I think it's important to distinguish between neutral venues/neutral terms and fighting at home as defined by the country where the bout occurs, since fighting in one's country doesn't necessarily lead to partiality for the so-called home-fighter, and without partiality I don't see strong grounds for complaints about location.

To illustrate, if one conflates neutrality with country of occurrence, as some seem to be doing, Atlantic City would've been non-neutral in Ward's favor even if Froch were more experienced at the venue, the crowd uniformly supported him, and officials unfairly favored him. To give a recent and real example, Mike Mollo would be considered at home and favored by a lack of neutrality when he fought Artur Szpilka, even though virtually everyone in the crowd donned Polish colours, cheered Szpilka, and booed Mollo, while the referee favored Szpilka and cursed Mollo. However, it makes little sense to say Ward and Mollo benefitted from a lack of neutrality, as neither man was favored; it was Froch and Szpilka who were favored, even though they fought in their opponent's country and not their own.

I've browsed various forums and frequently see the claim that Ward unfairly benefitted from the location of his bout with Froch, or that to get a true sense of how the fighters compare they should rematch in a neutral venue or in England. This assumes, incorrectly in my view, that Ward enjoyed the advantages that theoretically stem from being at home and that Froch didn't benefit to the same extent from other factors. As mentioned before, I think it's a tenuous case that Ward had either the crowd or the officials in his favor; this was nothing like his Oakland bouts, in which the crowd heavily supported him (each fight), the referees let him foul often (Kessler, Bika, Green), and the judges were a bit generous to him (Bika). I also doubt that in the absence of significant support, Ward significantly benefited just by having a stronger sense of being in his own country than Froch did, as some implied.

Calling for a rematch in the UK out of fairness also simplistically reduces the impact of location to USA vs. UK. Several posters have pointed out that Americans are highly patriotic and listed examples of this relevant to boxing, but does anyone doubt that Froch would have far more support anywhere in England, or the U.K. more broadly, than Ward had in Atlantic City? Does anyone think the officials would be more generous to Ward than they were to Froch in Atlantic City? Does anyone who brought up Ward's greater familiarity with Atlantic City think that he would be more accustomed to the U.K. than Froch is to the USA, even though Ward has never fought in the UK but Froch has fought in the USA several times? I say 'no' to each question, and believe it's unlikely that a rematch across the pond would be fought on terms as impartial as those in the original encounter.

Since Ward and Froch fought on neutral or close to neutral terms that were likely far more equitable than those of a rematch in the UK, I don't see any obligation or duty of fairness for Ward to travel there for a rematch if it occurs. Even if it's conceded that Ward fought at home due to being in the US, there was likely nothing about fighting at home that resulted in a pro-Ward bias that significantly impacted the bout. This is much ado about nothing in my opinion.

[sucracristo]

If I was to schedule a fight against Arthur Abraham in my back garden he'd bring more fans than I would, I'd still be at home.

fair enough, statisically your chance of beating abraham in your back yard is ____?
your chance of beating abraham anywhere else on the planet is ___?
lets just assume you have the same ring in both places and you aren't bare knuckle boxing around your lawnmower

if a cowboy from montana fought a cuban in miami, who would be home fighter?
if a guy from boston (mass) fought a mexican in tucson or corpus christi, who would be the home fighter?
if a hawaiian fought an irishman in boston, who would be the home fighter?
if an alaskan fought a puerto rican (for the euros, both are americans) in new york, who would be the home fighter?
if anyone from anywhere not in the british isles fights a brit anywhere in britain, who is the home fighter?
see how this works? you can't compare the united states to luxembourg.

[dajuggernaut]

Exactly, the United States is the expection to the rule because of the diversity.

People are calling for a Froch fight in England, I want to see it in Oakland. They fought neutrally one time. Ward is higher rated and he holds a win over Froch. Ward calls the shots. Like I said before, if Froch wants to get his ass kicked, come to Oakland, he'll see what a real United States home fight looks like.

[CheckHook]

Not really sure I fully go along with the logic that fighting outside your state for an American is like travelling overseas to another country for people based outside the US.... I think to imply that Ward VS Froch I was a neutral venue, since Ward wasn't in his home state, you would have to concede that Calzaghe Vs Lacy was fought in a neutral venue too, since it wasn't even in fought in Calzaghe's home country (Joe is Welsh and it was fought in Manchester England). Of course you'll argue that Joe was at home since he often fought outside Wales and had a big English/ British following, but in real terms the difference between Wales and England is probably very similar to travelling to other states in the US.... Claiming the US is the exception to the rule since its big and states vary seems kind've disingenuous to me, but each to their own I guess....

[sucracristo]

but in real terms the difference between Wales and England is probably very similar to travelling to other states in the US

people in lichtenstein say that traveling from one town to another is the same as traveling
from st petersburg to vladivostok, too. it's a very parochial view of the world.
wales is 8,000 square miles, which would rank it the 48th smallest state in the usa.
we have 22 COUNTIES in the united states bigger than wales.
we probably have a dozen states bigger than all of britain.
from cardiff to manchester is about 100 miles?
the population of the entire island of britain is about 62mil.
we have 40mil foreign born living in the united states = almost 2/3 of your whole population.
we have 35mil spanish speakers and the list of languages goes down well
into the 20's that we have speakers number over 200k. you could pick
any language on the planet you have ever heard of and we could probably fill an
arena the size of the o2 with people living in the united states who speak it.
we probably have more gaelic speakers than ireland, wales, and scotland combined.
we have several metro areas here, each with more irish born than there are in ireland.
you make a big deal about the difference between a scouser and mackam, etc, as if that
is any different than boston and new york and philly, etc, never mind an alaskan or someone
on a navajo reservation or someone from demoines iowa. there is no comparison between britian
and the united states. we have places here where you wouldn't know what country you're in,
places where nobody speaks english.