Calzaghe & Froch - who they fought and how they rated

[johnswan1]

Starting off from the year prior to their first world championship fight, here's a look at what Calzaghe and Froch have done based on year end rankings from "The Ring".

Calzaghe Summary:

Taking 1997 as his breakout year when he won the WBO SMW championship, Joe had 27 fights from 1997-2007. Of these 27, only 8 of those had a top 10 ranking at the end of the year before Joe fought them. On that basis, Joe's best opponents based on what they had achieved to end of prior year were as follows:

Record 8-0 (3 KO's)

1999 Reid (6th in 1998)
2000 Woodhall (8th in 1999)
2002 Brewer (5th in 2001)
2003 Mitchell (5th in 2002)
2006 Lacy (3rd in 2005)
2007 Manfredo Jr (10th in 2006)
2007 Kessler (1st in 2006 - Calzaghe was Champion)
2008 Hopkins (Light Heavyweight champion in 2007)

Notable highly ranked absences (division top 3 excluding self) during reign at SMW:

Roy Jones Jr.
Frankie Liles
Steve Collins
Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Anthony Mundine
Markus Beyer
Eric Lucas

Froch Summary:

Taking 2008 as his breakout year when he won the WBC SMW championship, Carl had 11 fights from 2008-2013. Of these 11, 9 of those had a top 10 ranking at the end of the year before Carl fought them. On that basis, Carl's best opponents based on what they had achieved to end of prior year were as follows:

Record 7-2 (2 KO's)

2008 Pascal (10th in 2007)
2009 Taylor (5th in 2008)
2009 Dirrell (10th in 2008)
2010 Kessler (4th in 2009)
2010 Abraham (6th in 2009)
2011 Johnson (9th in 2010)
2011 Ward (1st in 2010)
2012 Bute (1st in 2011)
2013 Kessler (2nd in 2012)

Notable highly ranked absences (division top 3 excluding self) during reign at SMW:

Joe Calzaghe
Anthony Mundine
Librado Andrade
Robert Stieglitz
Thomas Oosthuizen

Calzaghe Analysis:

Dec-96 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Frankie Liles
3. Steve Collins
4. Vinny Pazienza
5. Robin Reid
6. Henry Wharton
7. Michael Nunn
8. Vincenzo Nardiello
9. Joseph Kiwanuka
10. Thulani Malinga

In 97, Joe fought Christie (unranked), Hughes (UR), Torres (UR) & Eubank (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-97 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Frankie Liles
2. Robin Reid
3. Charles Brewer
4. Joe Calzaghe
5. Herol Graham
6. Vincenzo Nardiello
7. Thulani Malinga
8. Thomas Tate
9. Chris Eubank
10. Joseph Kiwanuka

In 98, Joe fought Sobot (UR) & Ferreyra (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-98 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Frankie Liles
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Richie Woodhall
4. Sven Ottke
5. Charles Brewer
6. Robin Reid
7. Thomas Tate
8. Vincenzo Nardiello
9. Andrej Shkalikov
10. Vinny Pazienza

In 99, Joe fought Reid (6) and Thornberry (UR).

Dec-99 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Byron Mitchell
4. Markus Beyer
5. Charles Brewer
6. Thomas Tate
7. Frankie Liles
8. Richie Woodhall
9. Robin Reid
10. Glenn Catley

In 00, Joe fought Starie (UR), Sheika (UR) & Woodhall (8).

Dec-00 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Bruno Girard
4. Charles Brewer
5. Thomas Tate
6. Dave Hilton Jr.
7. Dingaan Thobela
8. Glenn Catley
9. Byron Mitchell
10. James Butler

In 01, Joe fought Veit (UR) and McIntyre (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-01 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Byron Mitchell
4. Antwun Echols
5. Charles Brewer
6. Thomas Tate
7. Eric Lucas
8. Mads Larsen
9. Manny Siaca
10. Markus Beyer

In 02, Joe fought Brewer (5), Jimenez (UR) & Pudwill (UR).

Dec-02 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Sven Ottke
3. Antwun Echols
4. Eric Lucas
5. Byron Mitchell
6. Charles Brewer
7. Mads Larsen
8. Manny Siaca
9. Anthony Mundine
10. Markus Beyer

In 03, Joe fought Mitchell (5).

Dec-03 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Sven Ottke
3. Anthony Mundine
4. Antwun Echols
5. Danny Green
6. Byron Mitchell
7. Markus Beyer
8. Charles Brewer
9. Mads Larsen
10. Robin Reid

In 04, Joe fought Mkrtchyan (UR) and Salem (UR).

Dec-04 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Anthony Mundine
4. Antwun Echols
5. Danny Green
6. Jeff Lacy
7. Mads Larsen
8. Robin Reid
9. Markus Beyer
10. Manny Siaca

In 05, Joe fought Veit (UR) & Ashira (UR).

Dec-05 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Jeff Lacy
4. Markus Beyer
5. Anthony Mundine
6. Danny Green
7. Manny Siaca
8. Otis Grant
9. Robin Reid
10. Librado Andrade

In 06, Joe fought Lacy (3) & Bika (UR).

Dec-06 Ratings
Joe Calzaghe, Champion
1. Mikkel Kessler
2. Anthony Mundine
3. Jeff Lacy
4. Markus Beyer
5. Librado Andrade
6. Lucian Bute
7. Carl Froch
8. Allan Green
9. Denis Inkin
10. Peter Manfredo Jr.

In 07, Joe fought Manfredo Jr (10) & Kessler (1).

Joe then moved to Light Heavyweight.

Dec-07 Ratings
Bernard Hopkins, Champion
1. Zsolt Erdei
2. Clinton Woods
3. Antonio Tarver
4. Glen Johnson
5. Chad Dawson
6. Paul Briggs
7. Julio Cesar Gonzalez
8. Adrian Diaconu
9. Danny Green
10. Hugo Hernan Garay

In 08, Joe fought Hopkins (C) and Jones JR (UR).

Froch Analysis:

Dec-07 Ratings
Joe Calzaghe, Champion
1. Mikkel Kessler
2. Anthony Mundine
3. Lucian Bute
4. Jeff Lacy
5. Librado Andrade
6. Carl Froch
7. Allan Green
8. Sakio Bika
9. Denis Inkin
10. Jean Pascal

In 08, Froch fought Rybacki (UR) and Pascal (10).

Dec-08 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Mikkel Kessler
2. Lucian Bute
3. Librado Andrade
4. Anthony Mundine
5. Jermain Taylor
6. Carl Froch
7. Sakio Bika
8. Allan Green
9. Denis Inkin
10. Andre Dirrell

In 09, Froch fought Taylor (5) & Dirrell (10).

Dec-09 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Lucian Bute
2. Andre Ward
3. Carl Froch
4. Mikkel Kessler
5. Sakio Bika
6. Arthur Abraham
7. Allan Green
8. Librado Andrade
9. Robert Stieglitz
10. Eduard Gutknecht

In 10, Froch fought Kessler (4) & Abraham (6).

Dec-10 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Andre Ward
2. Lucian Bute
3. Carl Froch
4. Mikkel Kessler
5. Andre Dirrell
6. Sakio Bika
7. Robert Stieglitz
8. Librado Andrade
9. Glen Johnson
10. Arthur Abraham

In 11, Froch fought Johnson (9) & Ward (1).

Dec-11 Ratings
Andre Ward, Champion
1. Lucian Bute
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Carl Froch
4. Robert Stieglitz
5. Sakio Bika
6. Thomas Oosthuizen
7. George Groves
8. Glen Johnson
9. Arthur Abraham
10. James DeGale

In 12, Froch fought Bute (1) and Mack (UR).

Dec-12 Ratings
Andre Ward, Champion
1. Carl Froch
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Lucian Bute
4. Thomas Oosthuizen
5. Arthur Abraham
6. Robert Stieglitz
7. George Groves
8. Sakio Bika
9. Adonis Stevenson
10. Edwin Rodriguez

In 13, Froch fought Kessler (2).

[earsjohn]

Your point being?

[black panther]

Your point being?

Froch has faced better competition in much shorter space of time.

[black panther]

Interesting analysis cheers Johnswan1.

At his best, I still see Calzaghe as the better fighter however he wasted far too long fighting no hopers in WBO defences. If Froch beats Ward or Hopkins he's surpassed him legacy-wise; until then it's Calzaghe for me.

[earsjohn]

Your point being?

Froch has faced better competition in much shorter space of time.

Has he?

I'd argue that Calzaghe's best wins (Kessler, Lacy, Hopkins and Eubank) are better than Frochs performances in the toughest 4 fights of his career (Ward, Kessler x 2 and Bute).

Below this level, Frochs resume surpasses Calzaghe's but Calzaghe's highs are a lot higher than Carls. Maybe someone needs to show their careers on a graph, with regression and correlation. Someone with more time than me though!

[palooka]

Starting off from the year prior to their first world championship fight, here's a look at what Calzaghe and Froch have done based on year end rankings from "The Ring".

Calzaghe Summary:

Taking 1997 as his breakout year when he won the WBO SMW championship, Joe had 27 fights from 1997-2007. Of these 27, only 8 of those had a top 10 ranking at the end of the year before Joe fought them. On that basis, Joe's best opponents based on what they had achieved to end of prior year were as follows:

Record 8-0 (3 KO's)

1999 Reid (6th in 1998)
2000 Woodhall (8th in 1999)
2002 Brewer (5th in 2001)
2003 Mitchell (5th in 2002)
2006 Lacy (3rd in 2005)
2007 Manfredo Jr (10th in 2006)
2007 Kessler (1st in 2006 - Calzaghe was Champion)
2008 Hopkins (Light Heavyweight champion in 2007)

Notable highly ranked absences (division top 3 excluding self) during reign at SMW:

Roy Jones Jr.
Frankie Liles
Steve Collins
Sven Ottke
Bruno Girard
Antwun Echols
Anthony Mundine
Markus Beyer
Eric Lucas

Froch Summary:

Taking 2008 as his breakout year when he won the WBC SMW championship, Carl had 11 fights from 2008-2013. Of these 11, 9 of those had a top 10 ranking at the end of the year before Carl fought them. On that basis, Carl's best opponents based on what they had achieved to end of prior year were as follows:

Record 7-2 (1 KO)

2008 Pascal (10th in 2007)
2009 Taylor (5th in 2008)
2009 Dirrell (10th in 2008)
2010 Kessler (4th in 2009)
2010 Abraham (6th in 2009)
2011 Johnson (9th in 2010)
2011 Ward (1st in 2010)
2012 Bute (1st in 2011)
2013 Kessler (2nd in 2012)

Notable highly ranked absences (division top 3 excluding self) during reign at SMW:

Joe Calzaghe
Anthony Mundine
Librado Andrade
Robert Stieglitz
Thomas Oosthuizen

Calzaghe Analysis:

Dec-96 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Roy Jones Jr.
2. Frankie Liles
3. Steve Collins
4. Vinny Pazienza
5. Robin Reid
6. Henry Wharton
7. Michael Nunn
8. Vincenzo Nardiello
9. Joseph Kiwanuka
10. Thulani Malinga

In 97, Joe fought Christie (unranked), Hughes (UR), Torres (UR) & Eubank (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-97 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Frankie Liles
2. Robin Reid
3. Charles Brewer
4. Joe Calzaghe
5. Herol Graham
6. Vincenzo Nardiello
7. Thulani Malinga
8. Thomas Tate
9. Chris Eubank
10. Joseph Kiwanuka

In 98, Joe fought Sobot (UR) & Ferreyra (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-98 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Frankie Liles
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Richie Woodhall
4. Sven Ottke
5. Charles Brewer
6. Robin Reid
7. Thomas Tate
8. Vincenzo Nardiello
9. Andrej Shkalikov
10. Vinny Pazienza

In 99, Joe fought Reid (6) and Thornberry (UR).

Dec-99 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Byron Mitchell
4. Markus Beyer
5. Charles Brewer
6. Thomas Tate
7. Frankie Liles
8. Richie Woodhall
9. Robin Reid
10. Glenn Catley

In 00, Joe fought Starie (UR), Sheika (UR) & Woodhall (8).

Dec-00 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Bruno Girard
4. Charles Brewer
5. Thomas Tate
6. Dave Hilton Jr.
7. Dingaan Thobela
8. Glenn Catley
9. Byron Mitchell
10. James Butler

In 01, Joe fought Veit (UR) and McIntyre (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-01 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Sven Ottke
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Byron Mitchell
4. Antwun Echols
5. Charles Brewer
6. Thomas Tate
7. Eric Lucas
8. Mads Larsen
9. Manny Siaca
10. Markus Beyer

In 02, Joe fought Brewer (5), Jimenez (UR) & Pudwill (UR).

Dec-02 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Sven Ottke
3. Antwun Echols
4. Eric Lucas
5. Byron Mitchell
6. Charles Brewer
7. Mads Larsen
8. Manny Siaca
9. Anthony Mundine
10. Markus Beyer

In 03, Joe fought Mitchell (5).

Dec-03 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Sven Ottke
3. Anthony Mundine
4. Antwun Echols
5. Danny Green
6. Byron Mitchell
7. Markus Beyer
8. Charles Brewer
9. Mads Larsen
10. Robin Reid

In 04, Joe fought Mkrtchyan (UR) and Salem (UR).

Dec-04 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Anthony Mundine
4. Antwun Echols
5. Danny Green
6. Jeff Lacy
7. Mads Larsen
8. Robin Reid
9. Markus Beyer
10. Manny Siaca

In 05, Joe fought Veit (UR) & Ashira (UR).

Dec-05 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Jeff Lacy
4. Markus Beyer
5. Anthony Mundine
6. Danny Green
7. Manny Siaca
8. Otis Grant
9. Robin Reid
10. Librado Andrade

In 06, Joe fought Lacy (3) & Bika (UR).

Dec-06 Ratings
Joe Calzaghe, Champion
1. Mikkel Kessler
2. Anthony Mundine
3. Jeff Lacy
4. Markus Beyer
5. Librado Andrade
6. Lucian Bute
7. Carl Froch
8. Allan Green
9. Denis Inkin
10. Peter Manfredo Jr.

In 07, Joe fought Manfredo Jr (10) & Kessler (1).

Joe then moved to Light Heavyweight.

Dec-07 Ratings
Bernard Hopkins, Champion
1. Zsolt Erdei
2. Clinton Woods
3. Antonio Tarver
4. Glen Johnson
5. Chad Dawson
6. Paul Briggs
7. Julio Cesar Gonzalez
8. Adrian Diaconu
9. Danny Green
10. Hugo Hernan Garay

In 08, Joe fought Hopkins (C) and Jones JR (UR).

Froch Analysis:

Dec-07 Ratings
Joe Calzaghe, Champion
1. Mikkel Kessler
2. Anthony Mundine
3. Lucian Bute
4. Jeff Lacy
5. Librado Andrade
6. Carl Froch
7. Allan Green
8. Sakio Bika
9. Denis Inkin
10. Jean Pascal

In 08, Froch fought Rybacki (UR) and Pascal (10).

Dec-08 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Mikkel Kessler
2. Lucian Bute
3. Librado Andrade
4. Anthony Mundine
5. Jermain Taylor
6. Carl Froch
7. Sakio Bika
8. Allan Green
9. Denis Inkin
10. Andre Dirrell

In 09, Froch fought Taylor (5) & Dirrell (10).

Dec-09 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Lucian Bute
2. Andre Ward
3. Carl Froch
4. Mikkel Kessler
5. Sakio Bika
6. Arthur Abraham
7. Allan Green
8. Librado Andrade
9. Robert Stieglitz
10. Eduard Gutknecht

In 10, Froch fought Kessler (4) & Abraham (6).

Dec-10 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Andre Ward
2. Lucian Bute
3. Carl Froch
4. Mikkel Kessler
5. Andre Dirrell
6. Sakio Bika
7. Robert Stieglitz
8. Librado Andrade
9. Glen Johnson
10. Arthur Abraham

In 11, Froch fought Johnson (9) & Ward (1).

Dec-11 Ratings
Andre Ward, Champion
1. Lucian Bute
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Carl Froch
4. Robert Stieglitz
5. Sakio Bika
6. Thomas Oosthuizen
7. George Groves
8. Glen Johnson
9. Arthur Abraham
10. James DeGale

In 12, Froch fought Bute (1) and Mack (UR).

Dec-12 Ratings
Andre Ward, Champion
1. Carl Froch
2. Mikkel Kessler
3. Lucian Bute
4. Thomas Oosthuizen
5. Arthur Abraham
6. Robert Stieglitz
7. George Groves
8. Sakio Bika
9. Adonis Stevenson
10. Edwin Rodriguez

In 13, Froch fought Kessler (2).

Respect for the research

[johnswan1]

Why is Eubank on short notice a great win? He wasn't ranked at the time. Eubank may be a good name on a CV but he was in decline. In fact, it wasn't until Joe's third defence of his WBO title that he faced his first top ten ranked opponent in Reid.

[Final round]

In 97, Joe fought Christie (unranked), Hughes (UR), Torres (UR) & Eubank (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-97 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Frankie Liles
2. Robin Reid
3. Charles Brewer
4. Joe Calzaghe
5. Herol Graham
6. Vincenzo Nardiello
7. Thulani Malinga
8. Thomas Tate
9. Chris Eubank
10. Joseph Kiwanuka

Joe fought Chris Eubank in October 97 did Chris re-enter The Rings Rankings based on losing to Joe?

[palooka]

In 97, Joe fought Christie (unranked), Hughes (UR), Torres (UR) & Eubank (UR). None of them ranked in the top 10.

Dec-97 Ratings
Title Vacant
1. Frankie Liles
2. Robin Reid
3. Charles Brewer
4. Joe Calzaghe
5. Herol Graham
6. Vincenzo Nardiello
7. Thulani Malinga
8. Thomas Tate
9. Chris Eubank
10. Joseph Kiwanuka

Joe fought Chris Eubank in October 97 did Chris re-enter The Rings Rankings based on losing to Joe?

He might have done; he put up a great fight - a fighter can still gain something in defeat.

[Final round]

True, it was a good fight and others on the rankings may have lost badly during the year. Just thinking aloud. ;;-)

[observer1]

imo Joe is the better fighter, and would beat Froch Prime vs Prime.

But looking at resume's and "Legacy" - Froch trounces Calzaghe's and it's not even close.

[johnswan1]

Yes.

Jones Jr and Nunn left the division. Vinny Pazienza lost to Herol Graham. Collins retired.

Hence room for Eubank to reenter on his short notice performance against JC.

[earsjohn]

Why is Eubank on short notice a great win? He wasn't ranked at the time. Eubank may be a good name on a CV but he was in decline. In fact, it wasn't until Joe's third defence of his WBO title that he faced his first top ten ranked opponent in Reid.

But how relevant are rankings in real terms? Look at the relative positions of Froch and Bute from 2007 thru 2011. It's hard to argue that Bute deserved to outrank Froch based on their respective opponents and when they met, Froch proved conclusively who was better.

If Reid had met Eubank at the time, I would have backed Chris to get the W.

[johnswan1]

But fact is JC beat unranked Eubank on short notice convincingly and struggled to a split win over ranked Reid.

[earsjohn]

But fact is JC beat unranked Eubank on short notice convincingly and struggled to a split win over ranked Reid.

And Froch lost to Ward and to a Mikkel Kessler that Calzaghe beat comfortably....

Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of Froch, he is by far my favourite current fighter, but he has been found wanting at the very top level in a way that Joe never was.

[palooka]

But fact is JC beat unranked Eubank on short notice convincingly and struggled to a split win over ranked Reid.

The facts are true and don't tell the true story - The champion Collins chose to retire rather than face Joe after sparring Calzaghe; Eubank had been a long time WBO champion and presumably he and his manager had a good relationship with the ratings organisation. Eubank had competed with Collins and had regular big viewing figures, he stepped in and Joe beat him.

[johnswan1]

But fact is JC beat unranked Eubank on short notice convincingly and struggled to a split win over ranked Reid.

And Froch lost to Ward and to a Mikkel Kessler that Calzaghe beat comfortably....

Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of Froch, he is by far my favourite current fighter, but he has been found wanting at the very top level in a way that Joe never was.

This thread is more about who each fighter fought relative to unbiased rankings at the time. My feeling is that JC would have beaten Froch, but the number of highly ranked opponents JC never fought is very poor in comparison to Froch. As somebody else mentioned above, Froch has already had more fights against ranked opponents at SMW (9 vs 7) than Calzaghe did over a much longer period. Froch may not have won all his fights and may not have had the luxury of popularity to hand pick opponents, but his record of opponents during his era stands up better to scrutiny IMO.

[SamWise72]

What this tells you is that Calzaghe became champ, and then continued to fight nobodies who never even became anybody later, whereas Froch became champ and proceeded to fight nothing but genuine top contenders, in a style that hasn't been seen round that are of weight divisions since Hagler. That he lost a couple is insignificant, because he proved more, and will be remembered more warmly than Joe, who probably could have proved more, but chose to stay home and fight cab drivers.

[iamasadlittleboy]

Lots of different ways to look at this sort of thing though. I. e. What the fighters who get beat go on to achieve, I.e. Bika has been a top B level fighter since just before the Calzaghe fight, whilst Kessler will likely fade away soon.

There was a point in Wonjongkams career where 3 former victims were all title holders AFTER he beat them.

[Wrists]

I say appreciate them both in equal measure and stop inanely re-hashing a topic discussed many, many times.

Calzaghe wins a UD against Froch for the record.

[rhino222]

froch stopped taylor and bute,

[SteveDow]

Like others, my view is that Froch has the better legacy in terms of fighting top quality opposition but Calzaghe was the better fighter.

It is a real shame their careers did not quite meet in the middle.

In 2007 when Froch was calling Calzaghe out, Froch in relative terms was a nobody beyond domestic level and by the time Froch won a world title at the end of 2008 Calzaghe was about to announce his retirement.

We should just appeciate both fighters and not be so ready to denounce the record of one or the other because we view one as superior.

[Final round]

You can fight the best opposition but if you lose against them there is a problem.

[johnswan1]

froch stopped taylor and bute,

Thanks, have now amended.

[fasteddie]

Why is Eubank on short notice a great win? He wasn't ranked at the time. Eubank may be a good name on a CV but he was in decline. In fact, it wasn't until Joe's third defence of his WBO title that he faced his first top ten ranked opponent in Reid.

eubank was in decline?? did you see the thompson fights?? i did and he didnt look in decline in them and they were after calzaghe