Froch/Kessler and undercard RBR.

[CheckHook]

but in real terms the difference between Wales and England is probably very similar to travelling to other states in the US

people in lichtenstein say that traveling from one town to another is the same as traveling
from st petersburg to vladivostok, too. it's a very parochial view of the world.
wales is 8,000 square miles, which would rank it the 48th smallest state in the usa.
we have 22 COUNTIES in the united states bigger than wales.
we probably have a dozen states bigger than all of britain.
from cardiff to manchester is about 100 miles?
the population of the entire island of britain is about 62mil.
we have 40mil foreign born living in the united states = almost 2/3 of your whole population.
we have 35mil spanish speakers and the list of languages goes down well
into the 20's that we have speakers number over 200k. you could pick
any language on the planet you have ever heard of and we could probably fill an
arena the size of the o2 with people living in the united states who speak it.
we probably have more gaelic speakers than ireland, wales, and scotland combined.
we have several metro areas here, each with more irish born than there are in ireland.
you make a big deal about the difference between a scouser and mackam, etc, as if that
is any different than boston and new york and philly, etc, never mind an alaskan or someone
on a navajo reservation or someone from demoines iowa. there is no comparison between britian
and the united states. we have places here where you wouldn't know what country you're in,
places where nobody speaks english.

If Ward fought a guy from Mumbai who had never travelled overseas, had no experience of American culture and didn't speak a word of English would you really say a fight in New Jersey was on neutral ground? Of course there are degrees and America has some diversity, but get a grip there's a whole world out there.... Like I said in my earlier post, each to their own, but I feel like if you genuinely believe that Cali- New Jersey is the same as travelling to a different country then I honestly believe you need to visit more countries and experience different cultures.

[sucracristo]

If Ward fought a guy from Mumbai who...didn't speak a word of English

ok, you're telling me people in mumbai don't speak english and i need to
travel more. you have no idea where i've been and froch is not from mumbai,
does speak english, and nothing you just said has any relevance and we are all
dumber having listened to you. we could probably fill an arena with people
from india EASILY, here. i know dozens and i am not even in an area considered
to have a big indian contingent

[CheckHook]

If Ward fought a guy from Mumbai who...didn't speak a word of English

ok, you're telling me people in mumbai don't speak english and i need to
travel more

No, I'm putting forward the idea that Cali- New Jersey isn't quite the journey of a lifetime some people are making it out to be.

[sucracristo]

If Ward fought a guy from Mumbai who...didn't speak a word of English

ok, you're telling me people in mumbai don't speak english and i need to
travel more

No, I'm putting forward the idea that Cali- New Jersey isn't quite the journey of a lifetime some people are making it out to be.

ok, well that's different because the people i know from mumbai really struggle with
english, speaking it from birth and all, but yeah i guess i need to travel more.
what country do you think i haven't been to?

[CheckHook]

ok, well that's different because the people i know from mumbai really struggle with
english, speaking it from birth and all, but yeah i guess i need to travel more.
what country do you think i haven't been to?

I would rather not get in a pissing contest with you as I'm concerned that you are so upset right now that you might shower us both is piss..... Have a good one and say hello to your friends in Mumbai next time you are out there.

[sucracristo]

say hello to your friends in Mumbai next time you are out there.

cheers, mate. i'll remember not to speak english in india and learn more about their culture.
thanks for the tip.

[dajuggernaut]

Not really sure I fully go along with the logic that fighting outside your state for an American is like travelling overseas to another country for people based outside the US.... I think to imply that Ward VS Froch I was a neutral venue, since Ward wasn't in his home state, you would have to concede that Calzaghe Vs Lacy was fought in a neutral venue too, since it wasn't even in fought in Calzaghe's home country (Joe is Welsh and it was fought in Manchester England). Of course you'll argue that Joe was at home since he often fought outside Wales and had a big English/ British following, but in real terms the difference between Wales and England is probably very similar to travelling to other states in the US.... Claiming the US is the exception to the rule since its big and states vary seems kind've disingenuous to me, but each to their own I guess....

The crowd has some of what to do with it too.

Remind me, were they cheering for Lacy or Calzaghe? A big part of being "home" is having the crowd with you.

[CheckHook]

Not really sure I fully go along with the logic that fighting outside your state for an American is like travelling overseas to another country for people based outside the US.... I think to imply that Ward VS Froch I was a neutral venue, since Ward wasn't in his home state, you would have to concede that Calzaghe Vs Lacy was fought in a neutral venue too, since it wasn't even in fought in Calzaghe's home country (Joe is Welsh and it was fought in Manchester England). Of course you'll argue that Joe was at home since he often fought outside Wales and had a big English/ British following, but in real terms the difference between Wales and England is probably very similar to travelling to other states in the US.... Claiming the US is the exception to the rule since its big and states vary seems kind've disingenuous to me, but each to their own I guess....

The crowd has some of what to do with it too.

Remind me, were they cheering for Lacy or Calzaghe? A big part of being "home" is having the crowd with you.

I've pretty much said everything I can on the subject, I'm not denying that common sense can be applied to the situation, but to read some of the comments here, its like a whole other world from New Jersey to Cali and Ward was travelling to some unknown land where no one would understand him or even realise he was an American citizen, but the truth is its still America. There are lots of fighters who could come over to fight Ward, in Vegas, New York, New Jersey or wherever and I think its a bit of a stretch claiming they are all neutral fights purely because Ward is from a different state.... I think it almost seems, as has been said on this subject, that we have to make some sort of exception for America because its "different" out there to the rest of the world and I'm just not buying that line, sorry.

[dajuggernaut]

Not only because it's a different state. If Ward fought in Vegas I would consider it a home fight of some sorts. His biggest supporters would travel.

No significant crowd support and a 5.5 hour flight to the fight isn't a home fight.

And the crowd cheered for Calzaghe, if you didn't realize it.

[Emil]

I am truly amazed at the way some people in this thread are claiming Ward fighting Froch in Atlantic city being a neutral venue There's so much to say and respond to in this thread.....

[gilgamesh]

What's really funny is that the people that have grown up here agree with each other while the ones from other countries (who have probably have never even been here) think they have us all figured out.

That's just rich.

[sucracristo]

its like a whole other world from New Jersey to Cali and Ward was travelling to some unknown land where no one would understand him

froch crossing the atlantic would be in a whole other world in an unknown land with
nobody understanding him, wandering around tipping his bowler hat at passerbys
searching for fish and chips and tea and crumpets, lost...
i tried to think of a few mary poppins cliches but drew a blank.

i would say florida would be as neutral as you could get, and at the state level it
doesn't tax income, and corporate is 5.5% but there are so many exemptions not
sure if it would be taxed at all. not only that, brits flying in could hit the beaches
and theme parks and fish and golf in the sun and it would be a good getaway for
them say in october or november.

florida has had many champions in recent years (rjj, tarver, winky, lacey,
rigondeaux, lara, abril, etc, etc) and lots of other hall of famers flying in to fight.
indoors or outdoors there are too many great sites to mention all over south
florida with plenty of places for visitors to stay.

[gilgamesh]

For what it's worth I assume the New Jersey crowd would like and appreciate a guy like Carl Froch more than they would a guy like Andre Ward.

Each would have their supporters in the crowd as I'm sure there would be a fair share in the audience that would have money riding on Ward, but I think just as far as the way they fight and the attitude in how they go about it. People in Jersey would like Froch more than Ward.

[Emil]

What's really funny is that the people that have grown up here agree with each other while the ones from other countries (who have probably have never even been here) think they have us all figured out.

That's just rich.

Exactly. Especially considering you are all so different considering you are from different parts of the states..and that there seems to be nothing that's american to support. Like me and many has mentioned before, the crowd is just a small part, of course a crowd can sometimes influence refs and judges, but again the crowd is just one of many factors.

[crusader]

What are those factors and how do they make crowd support only a small factor in determining neutrality? Given what I've posted about the bout, do you think Mollo-Szpikza was held in a non-neutral venue in Mollo's favor, and if so or if not, why?

More importantly, how do you apply those 'many factors' to Ward-Froch such that the venue was non-neutral in Ward's favor? The crowd wasn't in his favor (if one fighter had more support it was probably Froch), the officials weren't in his favor (two of the judges were generous to Froch), and Atlantic City experience wasn't in his favor (Froch had more experience fighting at the venue). You applauded an earlier post suggesting Ward had an advantage simply because he had a greater sense of being in his own country, but how would that sense translate into an advantage in the ring rather than being irrelevant to the how the bout unfolds?

I agree that many factors need to be considered in assessing whether the venue was neutral, but it seems like the all that is considered by some is that the bout was in the US and Ward is an American and Froch isn't, which overly simplifies the issue.

[Lenny Cravats]

What's really funny is that the people that have grown up here agree with each other while the ones from other countries (who have probably have never even been here) think they have us all figured out.

That's just rich.

Just a question like, but have the people in agreement on your side ever traveled to another continent?

[dajuggernaut]

If I was to schedule a fight against Arthur Abraham in my back garden he'd bring more fans than I would, I'd still be at home.

fair enough, statisically your chance of beating abraham in your back yard is ____?
your chance of beating abraham anywhere else on the planet is ___?
lets just assume you have the same ring in both places and you aren't bare knuckle boxing around your lawnmower

if a cowboy from montana fought a cuban in miami, who would be home fighter?
if a guy from boston (mass) fought a mexican in tucson or corpus christi, who would be the home fighter?
if a hawaiian fought an irishman in boston, who would be the home fighter?
if an alaskan fought a puerto rican (for the euros, both are americans) in new york, who would be the home fighter?
if anyone from anywhere not in the british isles fights a brit anywhere in britain, who is the home fighter?
see how this works? you can't compare the united states to luxembourg.

Why were these questions never answered by anyone?

[Butterbean]

What's really funny is that the people that have grown up here agree with each other while the ones from other countries (who have probably have never even been here) think they have us all figured out.

That's just rich.

USA USA USA

[Butterbean]

If I was to schedule a fight against Arthur Abraham in my back garden he'd bring more fans than I would, I'd still be at home.

fair enough, statisically your chance of beating abraham in your back yard is ____?
your chance of beating abraham anywhere else on the planet is ___?
lets just assume you have the same ring in both places and you aren't bare knuckle boxing around your lawnmower

if a cowboy from montana fought a cuban in miami, who would be home fighter?
if a guy from boston (mass) fought a mexican in tucson or corpus christi, who would be the home fighter?
if a hawaiian fought an irishman in boston, who would be the home fighter?
if an alaskan fought a puerto rican (for the euros, both are americans) in new york, who would be the home fighter?
if anyone from anywhere not in the british isles fights a brit anywhere in britain, who is the home fighter?
see how this works? you can't compare the united states to luxembourg.

Why were these questions never answered by anyone?

If a guy from the us goes to bollywood and fights a guy from bombay is the indian at home ? Is it a neutral venue ? Are sucracristo daft ?
The culture differences in the us isnt that of compared to ditto in europe. Id say the diversity and differences in europe is bigger than the ones in the us. No matter how many cowboys or eskimos there are in the us, its still the us. PERIOD

[Butterbean]

Another anti-American troll.

So if we dont agree or buy into your weird aguments on how a home venue is defined we're trolls. U sound just like your old leader bush sr. If your not with us, you are against us. Fine then, black and white it is. Take good care of one another over there, sounds like u need it.

[kevo]

What's really funny is that the people that have grown up here agree with each other while the ones from other countries (who have probably have never even been here) think they have us all figured out.

That's just rich.

Just a question like, but have the people in agreement on your side ever traveled to another continent?

I have.

Shut up Stephen.

America sucks.

[sucracristo]

if a cowboy from montana fought a cuban in miami, who would be home fighter?
if a guy from boston (mass) fought a mexican in tucson or corpus christi, who would be the home fighter?
if a hawaiian fought an irishman in boston, who would be the home fighter?
if an alaskan fought a puerto rican (for the euros, both are americans) in new york, who would be the home fighter?
if anyone from anywhere not in the british isles fights a brit anywhere in britain, who is the home fighter?
see how this works? you can't compare the united states to luxembourg.

If a guy from the us goes to bollywood and fights a guy from bombay is the indian at home ? Is it a neutral venue ? Are sucracristo daft ?
The culture differences in the us isnt that of compared to ditto in europe. Id say the diversity and differences in europe is bigger than the ones in the us. No matter how many cowboys or eskimos there are in the us, its still the us. PERIOD

the reason you answered in that manner is because the questions went over your head.
you don't even know why i would ask such questions, and the answers
are pretty obvious, which means this whole topic is lost on you and
your opinions are based on lack of knowledge and experience.
there are a lot of people in this thread who obviously don't know anything about
the united states or any other while country cackling about multiculturalism.
what is this preoccupation with india, especially? i just had someone tell
me i need to travel and learn more about cultures because someone from
india would not be able to speak english. who do you people think you're fooling?

Just a question like, but have the people in agreement on your side ever traveled to another continent?

i have been to several european countries, asia, all over the united states and canada coast to coast,
the caribbean, and 2 south american countries. i have been to britain more than once.
i can say that the people talking about the united states have never been here or just visited disneyland
and watched friends reruns and consider themselves experts on this country. btw, someone on an
anonymous board could say they spent 10 years traveling antarctica on a pogostick.

[dajuggernaut]

If a guy from the us goes to bollywood and fights a guy from bombay is the indian at home ? Is it a neutral venue ? Are sucracristo daft ?
The culture differences in the us isnt that of compared to ditto in europe. Id say the diversity and differences in europe is bigger than the ones in the us. No matter how many cowboys or eskimos there are in the us, its still the us. PERIOD

You still didn't answer any of the questions.

[sucracristo]

Are we talking about Ward/Froch still? Is there a large current British group that resides in New Jersey? New Jersey, while not Oakland, still gives Ward home court advantage. As someone stated earlier, crowd is just one factor. Ward does have to travel quite a ways, but he is still gets off the plane in a familiar setting, sees the 50 stars waving in the air; pays for his whopper with American dollars; drives on the right side of the road; surrounded by fellow Americans who share the same culture. Whereas everything is different for Froch when he comes to New Jersey. It is foreign to him. He may have some supporters in the crowd that came from abroad. But they are in foreign territory as well. It is not a neutral venue.

Can't believe this is still being discussed.

I disagree with literally everything you just said.

remember, they are trying to paint the united states as this hostile homogenous martian landscape
because their main point is that the fight should be on neutral ground in the uk

[Butterbean]

If a guy from the us goes to bollywood and fights a guy from bombay is the indian at home ? Is it a neutral venue ? Are sucracristo daft ?
The culture differences in the us isnt that of compared to ditto in europe. Id say the diversity and differences in europe is bigger than the ones in the us. No matter how many cowboys or eskimos there are in the us, its still the us. PERIOD

You still didn't answer any of the questions.

Hell no. Dumb ass farfetched analogies that makes no sense. No matter hownmulticultural you peolpe think your country is, its still just to far of claiming all this nonsense about neutral venues. And sucracristo, did you wear a bucket on thy head while travelling the whole wide world ? And yes ive been to the states. Several times, and often months at the time. And ive been living and working in asia, ive been in the middle east, africa and most of europe. And im an oxford history proffesor... And ward vs anyone in the states is not a neutral venue. Face it kiddo.