Ranking the heavyweights circa 1892-1902

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 25 Oct 2005, 08:43

The earlier posting about Jeffries' rep got me thinking about this era. Here'e my ranking of the Heavyweights from those days. Given my user name it will be no great disclosure to tell you I'm a huge Tom Sharkey fan. But I think I showed great restraint in ranking him only 3rd. I'm not including Sullivan or any that preceded him since I feel their era was over by 1892.

1. Jim Jeffries. He beat everybody who was available and retired undefeated. There can really be no debate.
2. Peter Jackson. He may have been the best of them but he was only allowed to fight one of the big timers, Corbett and he fought him to a draw. By the time he got to Jeffries he hadn't fought in a couple of years and was dying of turburculosis. So we really don't know how good he was. Many people feel he was the best of the era but since he didn't have a chance to prove it in the ring, I can't put him ahead of Jeffries.
3. Tom Sharkey. I know, you're rolling your eyes thinking I'm just in love with Sailor Tom but hear me out. He beat Gentleman Jim Corbett twice. At least no one thinks Corbett won those fights and most people thought Tom won them both. He went the distance twice with Jeffries and a few folks think he won the second fight. And he demolished everyone else except for:
4. Bob Fitzsimmons - This guy was amazing. A natural middleweight he knocked out Corbett and Sharkey (even though Wyatt Earp robbed him of the victory). He should be on anyone's pound for pound list. But I can't rate him higher because if you look at the footage of the Corbett fight he was losing the entire way until he landed the solar plexus punch. And he really just melted in front of Jeffries.
5. Jim Corbett - I love so much about Corbett but he had too many weaknesses as a fighter to rate him higher. With both Jeffries and Fitzsimmons he was way ahead on points and then bang it was over. He couldn't take a punch. He didn't have a clue what to do with Sharkey, twice. His real claim to fame was beating an old, fat John L. and fighting Peter Jackson to a draw.

UpWithEvil · Post by **UpWithEvil** » 25 Oct 2005, 11:04

Give Corbett some credit, he boxed Jeffries' ears for 20 rounds. With today's sissified 12-rounders, he'd have earned an easy decision and been halfway to a second easy decision!

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 25 Oct 2005, 11:24

UpWithEvil wrote:Give Corbett some credit, he boxed Jeffries' ears for 20 rounds. With today's sissified 12-rounders, he'd have earned an easy decision and been halfway to a second easy decision!

Actually, given my shameless pro-Sharkey world view, I'd love to give Corbett more credit. That would only make Sailor Tom look better since Sharkey dominated Corbett on two occasions. But those three one punch knockouts Corbett suffered are hard to get around. As far as the 12 round modern thing, don't you feel Jeffries would have picked up the pace a bit if he knew that it was a 12 rounder? My point is you can't project our system back onto those days because the entire fight strategy would be different. And I do give Corbett a lot of credit. He revolutionized the sport and was clearly a master boxer as shown in the film of the Fitzsimmons fight. He just couldn't take a punch. That's kind of a big deal as far as I'm concerned. Floyd Patterson had great hands but without a chin he was a second rate champ.

UpWithEvil · Post by **UpWithEvil** » 25 Oct 2005, 11:26

As far as the 12 round modern thing, don't you feel Jeffries would have picked up the pace a bit if he knew that it was a 12 rounder?

Jeffries wasn't about picking up the pace - he waited for his opponent's pace to slacken. I think any credible scientific boxer could have beaten Jeff in a 12-rounder. But in a 25-rounder? Jeffries.

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 25 Oct 2005, 11:53

UpWithEvil wrote:
As far as the 12 round modern thing, don't you feel Jeffries would have picked up the pace a bit if he knew that it was a 12 rounder?
Jeffries wasn't about picking up the pace - he waited for his opponent's pace to slacken. I think any credible scientific boxer could have beaten Jeff in a 12-rounder. But in a 25-rounder? Jeffries.

We'll never know about the 12 round thing. What we do know is that Corbett couldn't finish the fights as they were structured in his time.

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 25 Oct 2005, 11:56

fitz should be ahead of sharkey.i thought in the second jeffries fight he battered jim unmercifully but jeffries sucked it up and was just too big.most other fighters would have been sparked.

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 25 Oct 2005, 12:33

dalek wrote:fitz should be ahead of sharkey.i thought in the second jeffries fight he battered jim unmercifully but jeffries sucked it up and was just too big.most other fighters would have been sparked.

Actually, I have a lot of respect for Fitz. There are several different version of his fights with Jeffries, some say he hurt Jeffries, others that he didn't. All of them agree that when Jeffries turned it up a notch Fitz was a goner. Sharkey on the other hand stood toe to toe with Jeffries in two fights, a total of 45 rounds and was never in danger of being knocked out and as I've said, some folks think he won the Coney Island fight. However, given that Fitzsimmons dominated Sharkey face to face twice it's of course acceptable to put him above Sharkey. But what can I say? I'm Sharkey's Boy. There's footage of the Sharkey-Jeffries fight in Coney Island. It's only a couple of the 20 rounds but at least in those two rounds, Sharkey is the more active and agressive fighter. Compared to the norm of the time, Sharkey's style looks more modern. At least he seems real interested in throwing punches rather than wrestling.

JC · Post by JC » 25 Oct 2005, 14:20

I wanted to do a top ten but only managed to get as far as 7, but here it is.

1) Jefferies

2) Corbett

3) Fitzsimmons

4) Jackson

5) Sharkey

6) Cholmsky

7) Jack O'Brien

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Oct 2005, 14:29

fitz was 36 and hadnt fought in over 2 years when he fought jeffries, perhaps he was past his prime???

corbett was aging and hadnt fought in over 2 years yet still outboxed jeffries for 20 rounds, he seemed to be past his prime as well

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 25 Oct 2005, 16:24

Did Jackson ever fight Fitzsimmons?

evndrbsn · Post by **evndrbsn** » 25 Oct 2005, 17:35

sharkeysboy wrote: There's footage of the Sharkey-Jeffries fight in Coney Island. It's only a couple of the 20 rounds but at least in those two rounds, Sharkey is the more active and agressive fighter. Compared to the norm of the time, Sharkey's style looks more modern.

Is there anywhere else besides Coney Island to see these two rounds? Such as a boxing video collector to your knowledge? It would be interesting to see a prime Jeffries in action (even though you say he was losing the two rounds lol). I thought only the Johnson-Jeffries fight existed on tape.

UpWithEvil · Post by **UpWithEvil** » 25 Oct 2005, 17:59

I think Jeffries vs. Sharkey also exists on tape, I've seen a clip of the re-shoot they did a few days later.

Regardless, I'm always eager to see as much footage of the legends of old as I can come across. Anyone have an inside track to some, please share with the group

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 25 Oct 2005, 18:19

Very interesting topic. I think it's a stretch to say that that Corbett had a glass jaw.
1. James Jeffries
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Jim Corbett
4. Peter Jackson
5. Tom Sharkey
6. Joe Choynski
7. Joe Goddard
8. Gus Ruhlin
9. Peter Maher
10. Jim Hall

Ruhlin does have some nice wins, and some losses to guys you would think he would have beaten.

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 25 Oct 2005, 19:23

evndrbsn wrote:
sharkeysboy wrote: There's footage of the Sharkey-Jeffries fight in Coney Island. It's only a couple of the 20 rounds but at least in those two rounds, Sharkey is the more active and agressive fighter. Compared to the norm of the time, Sharkey's style looks more modern.
Is there anywhere else besides Coney Island to see these two rounds? Such as a boxing video collector to your knowledge? It would be interesting to see a prime Jeffries in action (even though you say he was losing the two rounds lol). I thought only the Johnson-Jeffries fight existed on tape.

I watched it in the last hour and it's actually more like six rounds. Its an old sped up film so it seems like less. If you get it on DVD and watch it on Windows Media Player you can slow the speed down and then it looks like a real fight. It's available on a DVD called "Edison Fight Films" by M&M productions. Just do a search for Edison Fight Films. You'll find it. You can only get it from the M&M site. The quality of the Sharkey-Jeffries fight is poor but it's very watchable especially if you slow it down like I mentioned. The Corbett-Fitzsimmons fight is also on the DVD. And I didn't mean the film was in Coney Island. They fought in Coney Island. Sharkey's winning the rounds on this film.

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 25 Oct 2005, 20:00

More data re the Sharkey-Jeffries fight film. My original estimate of it being two rounds is accurate. When I watched it earlier in the day it seemed like more but I was watching it just now and I realized I was watching the same two rounds looping over and over. They break, the seconds fan the fighters with towels and then they go back to fighting. They do that six times but it's the same two rounds repeated. The people who made the DVD had some space to fill evidently. I still think it's worth getting. It's fascinating.

UpWithEvil · Post by **UpWithEvil** » 25 Oct 2005, 20:22

This sounds like something my good friend Guy Incognito would post on the WBVA. Hmmmmm....

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 26 Oct 2005, 02:21

theres many more that say fitz was robbed.didn't earp remove his gun from the holster to quiet an angry crowd?

sharkeysboy · Post by **sharkeysboy** » 26 Oct 2005, 06:35

Decagon wrote:Richard Cogdell and many others say that Earp's disqualification of Fitzsimmons against Tom Sharkey was legitimate.

Richard Cogdell wasn't at the fight. He was just a guy from Witchita who was interviewed in the midst of the controversy and said some nice things about Wyatt. Wyatt was a crook, a card cheat, a pimp, a fight fixer and a natural born liar. But he was buddies with my boy Sharkey so he's all right in my book.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 26 Oct 2005, 19:45

Good thread Sharkeysboy !

1. James J Jeffries
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Gus Ruhlin (SURPRISE)
4. Tom Sharkey
5. James J Corbett
6. Kid McCoy
7. Joe Choynski
8. Peter Jackson
9. Peter Maher
10. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (for what he did in 1902)

I think Corbett get's a bad rap for being knocked out by the solar plexus punch, but the bouts with Choynski, Jackson and Jeffries proved he could be tough as nails.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Oct 2005, 20:08

and wasnt corbett past his prime when he outboxed jeffries for 20 rounds????

how bout corbett would have knocked out fitz if fitz didnt cheat and grab and hold on to corbett well he was down.

corbett also fought a draw with highly avoided peter jackson and knocked out old john sullivan.

IMO corbett got bad luck a couple times but might have been the best out of any of them,

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 27 Oct 2005, 04:58

i'd hardly call what fitz did cheating,more like surviving.still you would expect corbett to take a body shot off a middleweight.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 27 Oct 2005, 09:36

In Fitzsimmons v Corbett, wasen't Gentleman Jim actually dropped with a combination i,e, solar plexus punch and a shot to the jaw. Could of swore I read that in a Corbett biography.

UpWithEvil · Post by **UpWithEvil** » 27 Oct 2005, 10:33

Fitz popped him in the head with a right as Corbett was going down, but it was the famed solar plexus shot after the almost-equally-famous "Fitzsimmons Shift" that truly did the damage.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 09 Nov 2005, 20:31

an interesting fighter who fought a lot of those fighters already mentioned in this thread was norman selby aka charles `kid` mccoy.
mccoy was a brilliant boxer and entrepreneur who often sailed close to the wind - one of his favourite tricks was booking himself to appear on numerous shows on the same night and then sending other fighters claiming to be him and paying them less than he was getting paid by the promoters then pocketing the difference. promoters soon wised up to his scheme and insisted he turned up in person. hence the promotional flyers stated that the `real` mccoy was fighting that night and soon because he was that notorious for sending stand in`s the phrase entered everyday language.
in another of his schemes he threw a fight against corbett that was so obvious that boxing was banned for a while in new york.
in his later years he fought in and lost the first light heavyweight title bout to jack root.
quite a character

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 10 Nov 2005, 05:15

headhunter wrote:an interesting fighter who fought a lot of those fighters already mentioned in this thread was norman selby aka charles `kid` mccoy.
mccoy was a brilliant boxer and entrepreneur who often sailed close to the wind - one of his favourite tricks was booking himself to appear on numerous shows on the same night and then sending other fighters claiming to be him and paying them less than he was getting paid by the promoters then pocketing the difference. promoters soon wised up to his scheme and insisted he turned up in person. hence the promotional flyers stated that the `real` mccoy was fighting that night and soon because he was that notorious for sending stand in`s the phrase entered everyday language.
in another of his schemes he threw a fight against corbett that was so obvious that boxing was banned for a while in new york.
in his later years he fought in and lost the first light heavyweight title bout to jack root.
quite a character

Fascinating story. The real Mccoy! I think that "bringing home the bacon" can be attributed to Joe Gans. These phrases are remind us of just how big boxing used to be for its protagonists to effect the common language and idiom as they did.

This is a superb thread.

There's no doubt that Fitz must have been a real puncher to have been able to compete at this weight.