Joe Frazier

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 24 Oct 2005, 21:31

Frazier was a short, short-armed, one handed fighter, easy to hit with a chin slightly above average and recovery skills slightly below, power a wee bit better than average and stamina way past normal and a fighting heart. He is rated highly to justify Ali being rated higher still (see also: Norton, Patterson, Liston) and he fought Ali tough because Ali did not like pressure as it cut into his perfoming. Frazier would be, if I ever sit doiwn and compile such a thing, in my top 50 probably.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 24 Oct 2005, 22:55

wait what. frazier maybe in your top 50? or did u mean 15

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 25 Oct 2005, 00:28

tiredoldngrey wrote:Frazier was a short, short-armed, one handed fighter, easy to hit with a chin slightly above average and recovery skills slightly below, power a wee bit better than average and stamina way past normal and a fighting heart. He is rated highly to justify Ali being rated higher still (see also: Norton, Patterson, Liston) and he fought Ali tough because Ali did not like pressure as it cut into his perfoming. Frazier would be, if I ever sit doiwn and compile such a thing, in my top 50 probably.

OK, I guess you're not high on Joe Frazier. But probably Top 50?

As Larry Merchant said of Frazier, he was a truth machine. If a fighter had any quit in him, Frazier would bring it out. Frazier did have short arms, but Marciano, Patterson, and even Jack Johnson (72" for the Jeffries fight) among others had shorter reaches than Smokin Joe. Plus, his short arms helped his style because he basically leveraged himself to land hellacious left hooks.

I would say Frazier had an excellent chin. He took a beating from Ali in the Thrilla and never went down, even from punches he couldn't see. He took flush punches from Ali in the first fight and did not go down. Bonavena dropped him, but couldn't stop him. And only a few heavyweights could have withstood the 1st round of the first Quarry fight without going down. In his entire career, only Foreman KO'd (Yank stopped the Thrilla).

Also, he had excellent power IMO. The left hook that floored Ali. The one that floored Ellis. The one that took Foster out. The one that...you get the point and I agree that Frazier didn't use his right enough to be a Top 5 Great.

But I would put him somewhere between 5-15 if I had to make a heavyweight list. He overcame his flaws with that tremendous stamina and desire that you mention, but I do downgrade him for going a whole year with the heavyweight crown and fighting Ron Stander and Terry Daniels.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 25 Oct 2005, 16:43

Two fights in one year? That's a record compared to nowadays. Amazing isn't it?

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 25 Oct 2005, 17:20

Even in the first Al frazier fight I had Ali the winner, he scored a hell of a lot more than Joe. As far as careers go, Ali was greater by a mile. As far as Competition goes, Ali was ahead by a mile and this was even after the Government robbed him of his best yrs. Had Ali met Frazier at his absolute peak, which would have been a couple yrs earlier, he would have beat Joe convincingly. Frazier would never have been able to tag Muhammad so easily. Ali's footwork was so diminished by 1971....

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Oct 2005, 05:10

what is this joe frazier bashing im hearing?????

frazier is defintely top 10 heavy of all time

- he beat top contenders 6'4 243lb buster mathis, jerry quarry, had bonavena scared shitless in there remaatch, george chuvalo, and knocked out WBA champ jimmy ellis, first man to beat muhammad ali who was slight past his prime but waas 29 and still incredibly. thats a very impresive resume right there

frazier was neverthe same after ali I. he put on 10lb of fat, and didnt have his speed anymore, and didnt have one punch KOs wit hhis left hook

- frazier was not in his prime vs foreman despite being 29. fraizier was 10lb overweight, was slower and less mobile

as far as i know frazier never lost in his prime, and won the match vs ali where both were in or closest to there prime

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 10:37

Fights after the layoff are a bit sad.. I mean .. I don't want to think of Ali like that - stretching the rulebook to get that slippy darn of a win. Now all you fans out there know that this is exactly what it was. wouldn't but Ali at the top becose of that.

But Frazier sucked bad.. so even if he won that first fight he looked very limited: no straight hands only that darn hoock, moving foward?:)NO.. just standing there bowing all night for mercy and When Ali moved back he fallowed like a true man's best friend, lacked serious initiative, and all that stuff with his power is a myth (He had Ali trapped in the ropes for goodness sake and nothin happened). His true and only strenght was stamina, he just never stopped throwing.. looked amazing in that apartment. But no real movement.. or unexpected bursts of talent. .. But he would be champ in todays divison, though VItaly would give him hell if not beat him alltogether.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Oct 2005, 11:48

and who has vitali beat close to the resemblence of joe frazier???

old past his prime corey sanders??

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 12:21

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:and who has vitali beat close to the resemblence of joe frazier???

old past his prime corey sanders??

Corey 4 rounds were much more dangerous than joe's 8 and he was 6'4.
Vitaly has good style for Smoky, he would have got his eyes on the guy and would have countered every Frazier's punch. Hight, weight and reach might have been too much for Frazier who did weave and whatever but was so predictable in doing so.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 12:25

Decagon wrote:And let's not forget that he totally forgot about his promise to avenge his brother's loss after watching Lamon Brewster a couple of times. PUSSY!~

you have no idea what kinda politics are goin on with the king of Don's.-... noway woudl I like to protect Vitaly's innactivity but lay that Byrd stuff a rest here all the other threads are full of it.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 26 Oct 2005, 12:28

cultus wrote:Corey 4 rounds were much more dangerous than joe's 8 and he was 6'4.
Vitaly has good style for Smoky, he would have got his eyes on the guy and would have countered every Frazier's punch. Hight, weight and reach might have been too much for Frazier who did weave and whatever but was so predictable in doing so.

Joe was pretty good when he would "weave and whatever". Also remember that VK would probably injure his shoulder against Frazier and have to retire in a middle or late round. Seems it would have been inevitable once the fight got tough.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 12:34

The Great John L wrote:
cultus wrote:Corey 4 rounds were much more dangerous than joe's 8 and he was 6'4.
Vitaly has good style for Smoky, he would have got his eyes on the guy and would have countered every Frazier's punch. Hight, weight and reach might have been too much for Frazier who did weave and whatever but was so predictable in doing so.
Joe was pretty good when he would "weave and whatever". Also remember that VK would probably injure his shoulder against Frazier and have to retire in a middle or late round. Seems it would have been inevitable once the fight got tough.

with the reach and height you would not give Vitaly a chance against small guy with hoock throwing fetish? ..

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 12:45

Decagon wrote:Yeah. If Vitali Klitschko signed with Don King, he'd have to fight John Ruiz, Chris Byrd and Lamon Brewster. He'd have to unify the titles. That would be awful, wouldn't it?

..well king owns Lamon, Byrd and Ruiz, are they fighting each other?

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 13:01

Decagon wrote:Good point. Ruiz wanted to fight both Klitschko and Byrd, but both the IBF and WBC claimants turned him down. Byrd is just as bad as Klitschko. Lamon is only a WBO titlist and has a few glaring weaknesses in the ring. I don't know what the plan is with him.

Im sure Ruiz wanted to make love with men not fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Oct 2005, 13:19

cultus wrote:
The Great John L wrote:
cultus wrote:Corey 4 rounds were much more dangerous than joe's 8 and he was 6'4.
Vitaly has good style for Smoky, he would have got his eyes on the guy and would have countered every Frazier's punch. Hight, weight and reach might have been too much for Frazier who did weave and whatever but was so predictable in doing so.
Joe was pretty good when he would "weave and whatever". Also remember that VK would probably injure his shoulder against Frazier and have to retire in a middle or late round. Seems it would have been inevitable once the fight got tough.
with the reach and height you would not give Vitaly a chance against small guy with hoock throwing fetish? ..

cultus, joe frazier knocked out 6'4 243lb big buster mathis before, it wont be a problem

- vitali is uncoordinated, throws arm punches and does not have the boxing skills and defense to keep frzier off him

- plus vitali has no heart and doesnt have the workrate to keep up with frazxier

frazier TKO 14 vitali

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 13:24

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
cultus wrote:
The Great John L wrote: Joe was pretty good when he would "weave and whatever". Also remember that VK would probably injure his shoulder against Frazier and have to retire in a middle or late round. Seems it would have been inevitable once the fight got tough.
with the reach and height you would not give Vitaly a chance against small guy with hoock throwing fetish? ..

cultus, joe frazier knocked out 6'4 243lb big buster mathis before, it wont be a problem

- vitali is uncoordinated, throws arm punches and does not have the boxing skills and defense to keep frzier off him

- plus vitali has no heart and doesnt have the workrate to keep up with frazxier

frazier TKO 14 vitali

you might be right. Anyways I never said that Vitaly absolutely would beat Frazier. Vitaly really seems to be good fighting against small people though .. but at the same time he is bothered with pressure and that was Fraziers bread and butter I guess. Not sure about the heart.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 26 Oct 2005, 15:25

cultus wrote:Fights after the layoff are a bit sad.. I mean .. I don't want to think of Ali like that - stretching the rulebook to get that slippy darn of a win. Now all you fans out there know that this is exactly what it was. wouldn't but Ali at the top becose of that.

But Frazier sucked bad.. so even if he won that first fight he looked very limited: no straight hands only that darn hoock, moving foward?:)NO.. just standing there bowing all night for mercy and When Ali moved back he fallowed like a true man's best friend, lacked serious initiative, and all that stuff with his power is a myth (He had Ali trapped in the ropes for goodness sake and nothin happened). His true and only strenght was stamina, he just never stopped throwing.. looked amazing in that apartment. But no real movement.. or unexpected bursts of talent. .. But he would be champ in todays divison, though VItaly would give him hell if not beat him alltogether.

Noone has been able to knock out Ali.

You can't knock Joe Fraziers power for that reason, Foreman also had him pinned on the ropes and Larry Holmes had an even older Ali pinned on the ropes but couldn't knock him out.

Say what you want about Klitschko beating him, or whatever other blasphemus things you have to say, but don't deny Smokin' Joe's power.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 26 Oct 2005, 16:53

Grimm wrote:
cultus wrote:Fights after the layoff are a bit sad.. I mean .. I don't want to think of Ali like that - stretching the rulebook to get that slippy darn of a win. Now all you fans out there know that this is exactly what it was. wouldn't but Ali at the top becose of that.

But Frazier sucked bad.. so even if he won that first fight he looked very limited: no straight hands only that darn hoock, moving foward?:)NO.. just standing there bowing all night for mercy and When Ali moved back he fallowed like a true man's best friend, lacked serious initiative, and all that stuff with his power is a myth (He had Ali trapped in the ropes for goodness sake and nothin happened). His true and only strenght was stamina, he just never stopped throwing.. looked amazing in that apartment. But no real movement.. or unexpected bursts of talent. .. But he would be champ in todays divison, though VItaly would give him hell if not beat him alltogether.
Noone has been able to knock out Ali.

You can't knock Joe Fraziers power for that reason, Foreman also had him pinned on the ropes and Larry Holmes had an even older Ali pinned on the ropes but couldn't knock him out.

Say what you want about Klitschko beating him, or whatever other blasphemus things you have to say, but don't deny Smokin' Joe's power.

Obviously cultus is not agreeing with the majority. Perhaps he's in a different "apartment" than the rest of us. "No real movement"? Have you actually watched Joe Frazier fight? He certainly showed a great deal of movement and speed in the first Ali fight. And no one put more hurt on Ali than Joe.

Maybe you should take another look at some of Joe's fights.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 26 Oct 2005, 23:37

tiredoldngrey wrote:Frazier was a short, short-armed, one handed fighter, easy to hit with a chin slightly above average and recovery skills slightly below, power a wee bit better than average and stamina way past normal and a fighting heart. He is rated highly to justify Ali being rated higher still (see also: Norton, Patterson, Liston) and he fought Ali tough because Ali did not like pressure as it cut into his perfoming. Frazier would be, if I ever sit doiwn and compile such a thing, in my top 50 probably.

agreed.