Froch/Kessler and undercard RBR.

[Butterbean]

If a guy from the us goes to bollywood and fights a guy from bombay is the indian at home ? Is it a neutral venue ? Are sucracristo daft ?
The culture differences in the us isnt that of compared to ditto in europe. Id say the diversity and differences in europe is bigger than the ones in the us. No matter how many cowboys or eskimos there are in the us, its still the us. PERIOD

You still didn't answer any of the questions.

Hell no. Dumb ass farfetched analogies that makes no sense. No matter hownmulticultural you peolpe think your country is, its still just to far of claiming all this nonsense about neutral venues. And sucracristo, did you wear a bucket on thy head while travelling the whole wide world ? And yes ive been to the states. Several times, and often months at the time. And ive been living and working in asia, ive been in the middle east, africa and most of europe. And im an oxford history proffesor... And ward vs anyone in the states is not a neutral venue. Face it kiddo.

[dajuggernaut]

Spending time in the United States has nothing to do with Ward/Crotch

Compare the Oakland and Atlantic City boxing crowds from the distance to Ward's home and the all around atmosphere of the fight. Completely different. No one cares how long you spent in the US. Completely irrelevant.

[sucracristo]

Hell no. Dumb ass farfetched analogies that makes no sense.

the reason you refuse to answer is because you don't know the answers,
because you don't know what you're talking about. if you knew the answers
you would answer. we can all call each other names like kids in a grade
school cafeteria, but all you accomplish is to show you know nothing and
you're childish.

[Emil]

remember, they are trying to paint the united states as this hostile homogenous martian landscape
because their main point is that the fight should be on neutral ground in the uk

No that is not is what we are saying. Or do you also believe that going from California to New Jersey is more different than going from England to Ukraine like mentioned earlier. What are we talking about then, really? Ward must have felt very alien (I know there are places in the US that you could feel this way even though you have lived there your whole life, but not on the whole) going to New Jersey to fight. Must have been like going to, I don´t know Azerbaijan? Not a familiar culture, a strange language that you don´t understand, they don´t speak English, strange food, Foreign flags, etc etc. This thread and many other threads in the off topic section of the forum actually proves the point that there is something that could be called American no matter what state you´re from.

[Emil]

Are we talking about Ward/Froch still? Is there a large current British group that resides in New Jersey? New Jersey, while not Oakland, still gives Ward home court advantage. As someone stated earlier, crowd is just one factor. Ward does have to travel quite a ways, but he is still gets off the plane in a familiar setting, sees the 50 stars waving in the air; pays for his whopper with American dollars; drives on the right side of the road; surrounded by fellow Americans who share the same culture. Whereas everything is different for Froch when he comes to New Jersey. It is foreign to him. He may have some supporters in the crowd that came from abroad. But they are in foreign territory as well. It is not a neutral venue.

Can't believe this is still being discussed.

Might as well just have all International competitions involving americans and foreigners in the US since it will most likely be neutral. You just have to make sure the american player or team players are from a state about 3000 miles away from the venue

[dajuggernaut]

Seeing your flag when your plane lands and paying for a meal in your own currency has nothing to do with one another once the bell rings.

[sucracristo]

do you also believe that going from California to New Jersey is more different than going from England to Ukraine

as i read this i was ready for you to say NEW JERSEY, which would be the case here...
ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with carl froch fighting andre ward.
neither andre ward or carl froch are ukrainian.
by the way i could take carl froch and andre ward to brighton beach in brooklyn where ALL of
the signs wherever they looked are in cyrillic letters.
i'll add another question to the list. if yuri foreman, a belarussian, or vlad klitschko, a ukrainian,
fought in brooklyn against a californian, who is the home fighter?

[Emil]

This is essentially like taking the New York Giants and having them play New England in L.A. and saying New York is the home team.

Everything gets less regional when you reach the International stage and they would still play in the states which will be a big factor.

[Emil]

do you also believe that going from California to New Jersey is more different than going from England to Ukraine

as i read this i was ready for you to say NEW JERSEY, which would be the case here...
ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with carl froch fighting andre ward.
neither andre ward or carl froch are ukrainian.
by the way i could take carl froch and andre ward to brighton beach in brooklyn where ALL of
the signs wherever they looked are in cyrillic letters.
i'll add another question to the list. if yuri foreman, a belarussian, or vlad klitschko, a ukrainian,
fought in brooklyn against a californian, who is the home fighter?

Just because you have chinatowns doesn´t make US China. Many competitions in Europe have more fans cheering for the foreign teams due to immigrants, but it doesn´t make the foreign team the home team.

[Emil]

Like I said a long time ago, Ward may have been closer to being the home fighter, but it was nowhere near a home fight for him.

Well more so than Froch, so it wasn´t neutral. He still fought in his country and he didn´t fight in "England-town" with large amounts of english settlers with green cards and english people who hasn´t been integrated or assimilated into US for the last 300 years.

[dajuggernaut]

Like I said a long time ago, Ward may have been closer to being the home fighter, but it was nowhere near a home fight for him.

Pretty much.

A nice 5.5 hour plane ride to a home game.

[sucracristo]

Many competitions in Europe have more fans cheering for the foreign teams due to immigrants, but it doesn´t make the foreign team the home team.

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
you guys won't answer any direct question as to who a home fighters is in specific scenarios, and in
response you only offer philosophical bs about india and ukraine and how something isn't something
but you won't say what something IS. define EXACTLY what this big huge difference is for froch
fighting on the east coast of the united states that would make any difference whatsoever, so as
to support this argument that a uk fight is more neutral.

[Lenny Cravats]

We can all come up with examples of whereby a man fighting in the country in which he resides will not have the favour of the crowd due to supporting nations of origin.
An Israeli in Golders Green, a Pakistani in Bradford etc, etc.
The fact is, these are extraordinary cases and in relation to the topic, Ward isn't from any of the nationalities that you mentioned, he's part of the largest ethnic/cultural group in the USA, i.e. considers himself an American rather than from immigrant populace. (Though of course, if we are talking about cultural lines making a home fighter, isn't the demographic of AC about 40% African American?)

As some of the American posters on here have said, I've no idea what it feels like to leave your home state. I do however, know how it feels to work in a different continent.
I'm not going to compare UK counties to US states for obvious reasons, but you're picking extreme examples of multiculturalism. You're still 75% white American and about 15% African American.

I can't see that Ward traveling across his home country makes this a neutral venue. Obviously it's not a home-town fight, but who do you think feels more at home, Ward or Froch?

[Emil]

Many competitions in Europe have more fans cheering for the foreign teams due to immigrants, but it doesn´t make the foreign team the home team.

how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
you guys won't answer any direct question as to who a home fighters is in specific scenarios, and in
response you only offer philosophical bs about india and ukraine and how something isn't something
but you won't say what something IS. define EXACTLY what this big huge difference is for froch
fighting on the east coast of the united states that would make any difference whatsoever, so as
to support this argument that a uk fight is more neutral.

There is no one arguing that a UK fight will be more neutral. I thought the argument was wether an american fighting an englishmen in the USA is neutral as long as it is not in the americans home state....with a lot of exception to the rule, like Froch vs Taylor because Froch were wearing the Union Jack on his trunks and that made it non-neutral....

[Lenny Cravats]

If I was to schedule a fight against Arthur Abraham in my back garden he'd bring more fans than I would, I'd still be at home.

fair enough, statisically your chance of beating abraham in your back yard is ____?
your chance of beating abraham anywhere else on the planet is ___?
lets just assume you have the same ring in both places and you aren't bare knuckle boxing around your lawnmower

if a cowboy from montana fought a cuban in miami, who would be home fighter?
if a guy from boston (mass) fought a mexican in tucson or corpus christi, who would be the home fighter?
if a hawaiian fought an irishman in boston, who would be the home fighter?
if an alaskan fought a puerto rican (for the euros, both are americans) in new york, who would be the home fighter?
if anyone from anywhere not in the british isles fights a brit anywhere in britain, who is the home fighter?
see how this works? you can't compare the united states to luxembourg.

Why were these questions never answered by anyone?

Because exceptions don't make rules and number of fans don't make a home venue. Like I said, if I fought Kessler in my garden there's be more Danes than anyone else.
If I traveled to Spain to fight a Spaniard at one of those places for English expats and on-the-run-criminals, the Spanish bloke'd be the only one for miles that knows more than 'Hola senor!'. I wouldn't feel at home.

[dajuggernaut]

This is essentially like taking the New York Giants and having them play New England in L.A. and saying New York is the home team.

That's a different scenario. That is two American teams fighting in a neutral location. However, let's think about this. Say American football, was international. NY plays NE in LA, a neutral location. The winner of that game plays a UK team. However, they play that UK team in LA again. Is it still a neutral location?

Take two high school softball teams. They are both in the same city. But they play in a third party's ball park. A neutral location given the matter. The winner plays a team from a different team, but at the same ball park. It is now no longer a neutral location. Same idea with Ward. He is an American fighter. A fighter who represented the states in the Olympics mind you. The US was home for him then, why not now?

Oakland A's playing a baseball game in New Jersey against an English team isn't a home game for Oakland. Playing in Oakland is a home game.

Do you consider North Dakota home? Anywhere in the United States is home to you? Nah.

[Emil]

This is essentially like taking the New York Giants and having them play New England in L.A. and saying New York is the home team.

That's a different scenario. That is two American teams fighting in a neutral location. However, let's think about this. Say American football, was international. NY plays NE in LA, a neutral location. The winner of that game plays a UK team. However, they play that UK team in LA again. Is it still a neutral location?

Take two high school softball teams. They are both in the same city. But they play in a third party's ball park. A neutral location given the matter. The winner plays a team from a different team, but at the same ball park. It is now no longer a neutral location. Same idea with Ward. He is an American fighter. A fighter who represented the states in the Olympics mind you. The US was home for him then, why not now?

Oakland A's playing a baseball game in New Jersey against an English team isn't a home game for Oakland. Playing in Oakland is a home game.

Do you consider North Dakota home? Anywhere in the United States is home to you? Nah.

It is his home country, isn´t it...And would it be neutral in your example above and is Ward only representing Oakland when he fights foreign fighters.

[dajuggernaut]

So is there a mile marker to which Ward passes to where he is not a home fighter anymore when fighting someone from another country? Anything over 100 miles? Or when he leaves his city, county, state, or time zone?

The mile marker is where the crowd support isn't there for him. Having the crowd is a major factor for being at home.

You never answered the question, do you consider North Dakota home? Yes or no?

[dajuggernaut]

Exactly.

[dajuggernaut]

Does a fighter from Novosibirsk, Russia have hometown advantage over Andre Ward if the fight takes place in Moscow?

Yeah, I'd assume he would have the crowd behind him. Anyone from that way can chime in, I'm not too familiar with the specifics of the region.

The point was the United States was the exception to that rule where you can fight anywhere and have the crowd. The crowd is a huge deal, just look at team sports. Any Russian fighter can fight a non-Russian fighter and the crowd would back the Russian fighter under most instances.

The same doesn't hold true in America.

I answered your question, quite thoroughly might I add, now do you consider North Dakota home?

[sucracristo]

Ward isn't from any of the nationalities that you mentioned, he's part of the largest ethnic/cultural group in the USA, i.e. considers himself an American rather than from immigrant populace

ALL of the scenraios i mentioned are americans fighting foreigners in the united states
and NONE would be the home fighter, and the answers are all pretty obvious
for anyone who know anything about the united states. i mentioned major metropolitan
areas in the united states, not little bergs here and there. ward is no more part of
the largest ehtnic cultural group in the usa than any other american i mentioned in
any of the questions i asked. i asked the questions for a reason. you refused to answer.
over and over you refused to answer the questions. in response you people are talking
about people from mumbai not speaking english and whoppers being different in the states
than in the uk because of the currency used to pay for them and all this CRAP.
froch will lose if they fight on mars or in his living room. these advantages chalked up
to ward fighting on the east coast are imaginary. they don't exist.

[dajuggernaut]

Does a fighter from Novosibirsk, Russia have hometown advantage over Andre Ward if the fight takes place in Moscow?

Yeah, I'd assume he would have the crowd behind him. Anyone from that way can chime in, I'm not too familiar with the specifics of the region.

The point was the United States was the exception to that rule where you can fight anywhere and have the crowd. The crowd is a huge deal, just look at team sports. Any Russian fighter can fight a non-Russian fighter and the crowd would back the Russian fighter under most instances.

The same doesn't hold true in America.

I answered your question, quite thoroughly might I add, now do you consider North Dakota home?

Wait... But you tried to make a point with a great big big big ginormous picture of the United States showing how far Oakland is from New Jersey. I guess mileage wasn't your point now?

So now you are fighting at home as long as most of the crowd is behind you?

Mileage AND crowd go hand in hand, that has been stated by me in this thread.

Plus it's about 1000 miles more to Atlantic City then your example. I'd say that's a fair bit of mileage.

[sucracristo]

Does a fighter from Novosibirsk, Russia have hometown advantage over Andre Ward if the fight takes place in Moscow?

yes. i have been to both places. it's a long story but i have eaten at new york pizza on
krazni propect, the opera house, and been to that ww2 memorial with the carved
out monuments. russia has different history than us, like 1/3 out populations,
and is WAY more nationalistic, considering its insulated recent past with communism, etc.
they shot people in the back for trying to leave. they had tv channels that nobody else used
to avoid their people from being able watch foreign broadcasts that would be available
to anybody else owning normal tv's sold everywhere else. these responses one after another
seem to further confrim all these people claiming to know about the united states and other
countries knowing next to nothing about them

[dajuggernaut]

You pick it, it's your example.

If you think my argument is "pretty much crowd" you're going to have to re-read this thread again.

Someone want to help this guy out?

[sucracristo]

Pretty much your argument is crowd. Very simple. However, I don't think it's that simple.

he has an argument. the opposing arguments about whoppers being different in the usa
are not arguments. if there was an argument that explained what kind of an
advantage ward would really have, after all these pages, maybe somebody
might give the argument credit. the northeast united states started off as british
colonies and a 2nd war had to be fought because britain in the 1800's was still claiming
that crews of us ships were british subjects. look at the names of the states and
cities and towns. listen to new englanders talk. even attitudes about politics are
more similar in northeastern usa and britain than the other parts of the states.
any differences froch would notice at all are completely superficial.
east coast is as much a neutral site as you are going to get outside of maybe macao