Answer me this... about max baer...

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 26 Oct 2005, 06:56

Ok. recently in the Larry Holmes thread, people have started saying that they dont base larry on his competition, but rather against his skills and his talent. well thats understandable. But then i have a question for all you guys...

If we are basing our rankings on skill alone which is what they eluded too in their defense that holmes should still be top five, then wouldnt max baers ranking be significantly higher? There is no Doubt in my mind that max baer could have been a top 5 heavyweight. He is ranked by most people in the 15-20 area. now i know ur all gonna say that he did have the mentality or focus or drive to be great, but that is different from his skill. he had possibly the most outstanding boxing physique, and a murderous right hand. On a Day that Max Baer comes out ready to fight (i.e schmelling) i will pick him over many of the other top heavys of the past.

So if your ranking the heavyweights on pure skills alone and talent.. not competition or mentality...wouldnt baers ranking change? were would u guys rank him on skills?

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 26 Oct 2005, 08:28

yeah but baer still lost a lot.larry didn't.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 26 Oct 2005, 09:45

If a person were to rank a fighter based mainly on their skill and or potential then you would have countless fighters you would have to consider great because that's how many fighters came to the sport who were gifted and talented. It was the very few who lived up to their natural ability.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 26 Oct 2005, 11:13

But mental strength is very much part of a fighters skills. Its a fighters mental strength and character which really takes him past other fighters who are as if not more talented Physically.
And again I must say Holmes opposition is more than equal to any of the other heavyweight champions of any era. Have you seen Holmes title fights Rory??... I very much doubt it.
As for Baer's talent I think he was very overrated... he had power but was a wild round house swinger and to rate him as an all time great even on physical talent alone is misguided I think. He was basically a very crude brawler... Schmeling and Jack Sharkey were much better boxers technically.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 26 Oct 2005, 13:19

Decagon wrote:Baer didn't have the physical gifts. That's the point. He was just big and strong.

Isn't being big and strong a physical gift??... I'd say it was...

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 26 Oct 2005, 13:20

decagon, and he had a right hand that could knock any man out cold

The End · Post by **The End** » 26 Oct 2005, 16:43

Decagon wrote:Baer didn't have the physical gifts. That's the point. He was just big and strong.

That's what physical gifts are my buddy.

But Baer didn't look very big at all to me, he was lanky but not very big.

In the Joe Louis fight he looked much taller than 6' 2", he was so much taller than louis that he tried to do that Lennox Lewis thing and just stretch his glove out to keep Louis away.

Ric · Post by **Ric** » 26 Oct 2005, 17:24

Decagon wrote:But he didn't have great reflexes, agility, balance or even speed.

Or trunks that kept from falling. It seemed he was always pulling them up at the waist. :P

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 26 Oct 2005, 18:04

Max was Modest

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 26 Oct 2005, 18:46

Decagon wrote:Baer didn't have the physical gifts. That's the point. He was just big and strong.

well besides the point that being big and strong is part of having physical gifts, he had tremendous talent. do u think he could have slacked and not really tried, and still be considered top 20 if he didnt have talent....could he win a heavyweight title... baer had all the tools and all the talents...he had the perfect physique...it was all in his head.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 26 Oct 2005, 19:26

Rory McCloskey wrote:
Decagon wrote:Baer didn't have the physical gifts. That's the point. He was just big and strong.

well besides the point that being big and strong is part of having physical gifts, he had tremendous talent. do u think he could have slacked and not really tried, and still be considered top 20 if he didnt have talent....could he win a heavyweight title... baer had all the tools and all the talents...he had the perfect physique...it was all in his head.[/quote

You could say the same thing about dozens of fighters. But Baer didn't have talent like great boxing skills, was a brawler.
Also Max must have trained a good bit otherwise he wouldn't have had that physique....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 26 Oct 2005, 19:29

For pure boxing talent as in skills, speed and power Jack Sharkey was far more talented than Baer but again like Baer he didn't have the right mental make up to realise his full potential.....

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 26 Oct 2005, 22:14

Baer had decent speed when he was on. Tremondous natural punch. Athletic. A great chin.

However, he never developed very good boxing skills.

There are many who could have won decisions by outboxing him, as happened in his prime in the 1930s.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 26 Oct 2005, 22:27

baer had his physique from helping his dad keep the farm tidy and working out in the field. he was from out west. liverpool california

The End · Post by **The End** » 27 Oct 2005, 14:51

http://www.carnera.org/images/primo16.jpg

I don't see the great physique.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Oct 2005, 14:53

Of course, Primo would have made the Klit's look scrawny as well.

The End · Post by **The End** » 27 Oct 2005, 14:58

The Great John L wrote:Of course, Primo would have made the Klit's look scrawny as well.

Yes Primo is definitely a freak,but Baer looks pretty scrawney.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Oct 2005, 15:29

The End wrote:
The Great John L wrote:Of course, Primo would have made the Klit's look scrawny as well.
Yes Primo is definitely a freak,but Baer looks pretty scrawney.

Just about the way that Ali would have looked.

Kinda makes you wonder if perhaps Primo was born 70 years too soon. How about Primo v big Klit for the Ring title?

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 27 Oct 2005, 20:03

The End wrote:http://www.carnera.org/images/primo16.jpg

I don't see the great physique.

im pretty sure thats from the movie that they made.. in which case i would expect that kind of shape from baer. obviously he did SOME training. when he came into the boxing game he had the perfect physique at the time.. obviously he isnt huge n jacked like todays fighters, but he was in great shape.

here is a picture from before one of his real fight....

http://www.goldenageautographs.com/sports/maxbaer.jpg

also i can use a references from the book "cinderella man"

..."the man jim braddock would eventually face in the most significant fight of his life had the physique of a greek god and the mentality of a circus clown"

UpWithEvil · Post by **UpWithEvil** » 27 Oct 2005, 22:24

Not so stupid he'd get a tattoo on his face.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 28 Oct 2005, 06:41

Da Plane!.....Da Plane!.....

The End · Post by **The End** » 28 Oct 2005, 07:29

Rory McCloskey wrote:
The End wrote:http://www.carnera.org/images/primo16.jpg

I don't see the great physique.
im pretty sure thats from the movie that they made.. in which case i would expect that kind of shape from baer. obviously he did SOME training. when he came into the boxing game he had the perfect physique at the time.. obviously he isnt huge n jacked like todays fighters, but he was in great shape.

here is a picture from before one of his real fight....

http://www.goldenageautographs.com/sports/maxbaer.jpg

also i can use a references from the book "cinderella man"

..."the man jim braddock would eventually face in the most significant fight of his life had the physique of a greek god and the mentality of a circus clown"

He still looks skinny in that picture.

If that was the body of a greek god back then then what the hell was Primo.

That's kind of weird.

Also was he jewish, I think in the Louis fight he had some kind of star on his trunks that resembled the star of David.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 28 Oct 2005, 07:36

Baer at his peak was 6-3 and 210-220. About the same size as Ali, Lyle, 70's Foreman and Norton. Well George, on average, was probably a few lbs larger. If you put any of them next to Primo they would all look rather skinny. So would most of todays guys, except Valuev.

The End · Post by **The End** » 28 Oct 2005, 09:28

I understand his height and weight for the time period but I just think he looks skinny, even compared to Ali.

http://www.sports.nd.edu/exhibits/winke ... 0-1-78.jpg

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 28 Oct 2005, 14:52

The End wrote:
Rory McCloskey wrote:
The End wrote:http://www.carnera.org/images/primo16.jpg

I don't see the great physique.
im pretty sure thats from the movie that they made.. in which case i would expect that kind of shape from baer. obviously he did SOME training. when he came into the boxing game he had the perfect physique at the time.. obviously he isnt huge n jacked like todays fighters, but he was in great shape.

here is a picture from before one of his real fight....

http://www.goldenageautographs.com/sports/maxbaer.jpg

also i can use a references from the book "cinderella man"

..."the man jim braddock would eventually face in the most significant fight of his life had the physique of a greek god and the mentality of a circus clown"
He still looks skinny in that picture.

If that was the body of a greek god back then then what the hell was Primo.

That's kind of weird.

Also was he jewish, I think in the Louis fight he had some kind of star on his trunks that resembled the star of David.

He was half jewish.

His physique was pretty good. Look at the Schmeling film and the pre-fight training footage . . .Baer was ripped. It's harder to tell from those black and white photos, but you can still see his absolutely MASSIVE shoulder and back muscles, which is partly where he got that punch from. I don't see how you can say he was 'skinny' except in the legs which were a little under-developed. An oaf like Rahman may have the big weight-lifter biceps but Baer had a harder punch and was MUCH better conditioned then the over-mass guys of today . . .