What Must Froch, Khan, Burns...do to join British Greats?

[Autobarn]

we have a few world champs at the moment: froch, burns, cleverly, McDonnell and some headline makers such as khan and haye. criteria would be to get major international achievements. obviously high profile all-british matchups don't hurt, especially if they're both regarded as world class.

McDonnell's only just won his title so he has a way to go, but what I saw was encouraging. the way he tucked up vs Mexican body puncher, used subtle lateral movement, lots of combinations and hurt ceja in rd 12 with the long, snappy shots...McDonnell's whole career's ahead of him and he could improve further, so I decline to make a pick...

burns - champ at 2 weights, beaten world class / top 10 ranked opponents Martinez (thriller), katsidis (clinic, if somewhat passive), moses (sharp performance), Mitchell (demolition in big all-british fight), gonzalez (looking vulnerable but winning in a fight where all went wrong)...to join the british greats, the most direct route is for burns to unify successfully vs Mexican master Miguel Vazquez, the IBF lightweight champ.

froch - revenge on ward. or beat 175 champ Stevenson. the one feather missing from froch's cap is to beat someone regarded as The Man at their weight. Stevenson is 35 and untested though very dangerous. ward has that spoiling style but a revenge win would be amazing, especially if they can get it in the UK. due to his age froch is the most likely to gun straight for the most important matchup, and gamble on the 1 big fight. froch's list of scalps is so impressive (pascal, taylor, dirrell, Abraham, Johnson, bute, Kessler) that he's only 1 win away...

khan - if he can beat devon alexander at welter, that would be the key. add welter title to his uneven 140 reign. alexander a non puncher (urango notwithstanding), very fast, and khan performs well vs quick opponents (easy work of Judah and malignaggi). defence vs kell brook would be perhaps the fastest (in terms of athleticism, hand and foot speed, reflexes) fight ever in Britain.

haye - must beat fury in british blockbuster. add fury to major british scalps macca, audley, chisora. use momentum of spectacular win to earn vitali fight. beat an ageing and injury prone vitali klitschko, add WBC heavy title to WBA heavy trinket he had a few yrs ago (and obviously the lineal cruiser title) and make amends for that terrible effort vs wlad 2 yrs ago...

[dalcumly]

It's relatively simple for me . They need to become undisputed champion at whatever weight and make a couple of successful defences against the main contenders.

[danconnollyeire]

It's relatively simple for me . They need to become undisputed champion at whatever weight and make a couple of successful defences against the main contenders.

Haye was at crusier to be fair

[Trojans44]

I think your description of Burns's record is massively generous. I don't think he's beaten a single world class fighter and appears to have zero interest in taking one on. Katsidis is a punching bag for world class fighters not one himself.

[Parson Cross]

Froch is already a British great as far as Im concerned.

[danconnollyeire]

Froch is already a British great as far as Im concerned.

You're not a bad judge, mate, who are your British greats from 1990-Present?

IMO Hatton, Lewis, Calzaghe, Froch, Hamed, Bruno, Benn, Eubank

[lefty]

Froch is already a British great as far as Im concerned.

X2 .... the level of opposition he has faced aswell deserves a lot of credit, even in the losses.

[Autobarn]

I think your description of Burns's record is massively generous. I don't think he's beaten a single world class fighter and appears to have zero interest in taking one on. Katsidis is a punching bag for world class fighters not one himself.

i don't take what burns did for granted. whoever believed he'd beat roman Martinez, the reigning WBO champ at 130?
getting up to win a war.

katsidis was ranked in ring mag's world top 10, & despite his flaws he dropped marquez and casamayor, and stopped dominated / destroyed jesus chavez/Escobedo/Mitchell. also that famous win over earl, made it a great UK boxing event.

jose gonzalez proved a very dangerous opponent, worthy of his WBO ranking, and Mitchell, moses were also respectable - enough, again, for the top 10 ring rating at 135 pounds.

burns's super featherweight challengers, however, were horrible!

to reiterate, if he beat Miguel Vazquez to unify, that'd be impressive. no one goes near Vazquez. also, how about trying for a 3rd weight title, at 140? to match duke McKenzie's 3 titles...

[Bard of Boxrec]

I had to check the date of this post. How would Khan and Burns realistically achieve anything to make them be considered greats?

[dbf]

we have a few world champs at the moment: froch, burns, cleverly, McDonnell and some headline makers such as khan and haye. criteria would be to get major international achievements. obviously high profile all-british matchups don't hurt, especially if they're both regarded as world class.

McDonnell's only just won his title so he has a way to go, but what I saw was encouraging. the way he tucked up vs Mexican body puncher, used subtle lateral movement, lots of combinations and hurt ceja in rd 12 with the long, snappy shots...McDonnell's whole career's ahead of him and he could improve further, so I decline to make a pick...

burns - champ at 2 weights, beaten world class / top 10 ranked opponents Martinez (thriller), katsidis (clinic, if somewhat passive), moses (sharp performance), Mitchell (demolition in big all-british fight), gonzalez (looking vulnerable but winning in a fight where all went wrong)...to join the british greats, the most direct route is for burns to unify successfully vs Mexican master Miguel Vazquez, the IBF lightweight champ.

froch - revenge on ward. or beat 175 champ Stevenson. the one feather missing from froch's cap is to beat someone regarded as The Man at their weight. Stevenson is 35 and untested though very dangerous. ward has that spoiling style but a revenge win would be amazing, especially if they can get it in the UK. due to his age froch is the most likely to gun straight for the most important matchup, and gamble on the 1 big fight. froch's list of scalps is so impressive (pascal, taylor, dirrell, Abraham, Johnson, bute, Kessler) that he's only 1 win away...

khan - if he can beat devon alexander at welter, that would be the key. add welter title to his uneven 140 reign. alexander a non puncher (urango notwithstanding), very fast, and khan performs well vs quick opponents (easy work of Judah and malignaggi). defence vs kell brook would be perhaps the fastest (in terms of athleticism, hand and foot speed, reflexes) fight ever in Britain.

haye - must beat fury in british blockbuster. add fury to major british scalps macca, audley, chisora. use momentum of spectacular win to earn vitali fight. beat an ageing and injury prone vitali klitschko, add WBC heavy title to WBA heavy trinket he had a few yrs ago (and obviously the lineal cruiser title) and make amends for that terrible effort vs wlad 2 yrs ago...

Quality post as always 'bhan. I need to think this through.

[Quixall]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

[Alba]

It's relatively simple for me . They need to become undisputed champion at whatever weight and make a couple of successful defences against the main contenders.

This is what i was going to post... nowadays with so many titles out there to be classed as a "great" i would anticipate really they would need to unify a division and maybe become a multiple WC with a few decent defences against the top in the division...

[expe]

Burns is potentially 2 fights away, a unification with Vazquez or Abril and then step up and win a belt at Light Welter.

[JC]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

Really? What's your definition of British great? I just ask b/c beating Wlad seems a very high minimum standard to set.

[Quixall]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

Really? What's your definition of British great? I just ask b/c beat Wlad seems a very minimum standard to set.

I said "to have any chance" with my tongue firmly in my cheek, ie, he won't ever be a British great.

[tonyevs]

It's relatively simple for me . They need to become undisputed champion at whatever weight and make a couple of successful defences against the main contenders.

x2

Thats it really.

Its one thing holding a world title belt. Its a whole different thing to be the undisputed champ at the weight.
The likes of Henry Cooper, Benn and Naz will hold a high regard in the British publics reflections. And it would be fair to say, they were nowhere near the best in their weight division.
But they captured the publics attention, and had some great fights .. so they will oft be remembered as British greats.

Froch and Burns will probably only be remembered by hardcore fight fans in 10yrs time. Khan is maybe at the door of being a British Great.

[magnus]

Froch has surely done enough by now to be classed as a "British Great".

Unification is very, very difficult. The mandatory demands alone make it tough.

Naz tried his best to do, but got thwarted by the ABCs. The WBA stripped Wilfredo Vasquez just before they fought, if memory serves.

[Quixall]

Froch has surely done enough by now to be classed as a "British Great".

Unification is very, very difficult. The mandatory demands alone make it tough.

Naz tried his best to do, but got thwarted by the ABCs. The WBA stripped Wilfredo Vasquez just before they fought, if memory serves.

But he was awarded a silver belt by the WBA in recognistion of beating their long time champion.

[magnus]

Was he mate? Can't remember that!

Still, maybe that's where the WBC and "The Masters" got the idea from!

[Autobarn]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

khan also has that amateur success, which gives him a bit of a head start. i'd like a win over alexander, i'd love a kell brook fight: it'd feature amazing speed, and i'd like a win over a strong pressure fighter to put the Garcia & Peterson fights behind him, for good.

burns - a rising in weight gamboa, and a unification with Vazquez, 'd do it for me.

froch - revenge over ward (difficult), or a win over Stevenson at light heavy. another classic vs Kessler won't do it for me. another domination of a world class opponent, as per Abraham / bute, wouldn't hurt. i'd love for froch to get 1 special win, get himself in the p4p lists. he can do it if the right opponent is delivered.

[expe]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

khan also has that amateur success, which gives him a bit of a head start. i'd like a win over alexander, i'd love a kell brook fight: it'd feature amazing speed, and i'd like a win over a strong pressure fighter to put the Garcia & Peterson fights behind him, for good.

burns - a rising in weight gamboa, and a unification with Vazquez, 'd do it for me.

froch - revenge over ward (difficult), or a win over Stevenson at light heavy. another classic vs Kessler won't do it for me. another domination of a world class opponent, as per Abraham / bute, wouldn't hurt. i'd love for froch to get 1 special win, get himself in the p4p lists. he can do it if the right opponent is delivered.

For me for Froch to be seen as top 10 P4P he would have to beat Ward, which isn't going to happen IMO.

[IRLangmaid25]

Froch is already a British great as far as Im concerned.

You're not a bad judge, mate, who are your British greats from 1990-Present?

IMO Hatton, Lewis, Calzaghe, Froch, Hamed, Bruno, Benn, Eubank

I would go along with that list as well

[Quixall]

Was he mate? Can't remember that!

Still, maybe that's where the WBC and "The Masters" got the idea from!

Yeah, Naz told the story to Gary Newbon in a recent interview for sky

[Quixall]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

khan also has that amateur success, which gives him a bit of a head start. i'd like a win over alexander, i'd love a kell brook fight: it'd feature amazing speed, and i'd like a win over a strong pressure fighter to put the Garcia & Peterson fights behind him, for good.

burns - a rising in weight gamboa, and a unification with Vazquez, 'd do it for me.

froch - revenge over ward (difficult), or a win over Stevenson at light heavy. another classic vs Kessler won't do it for me. another domination of a world class opponent, as per Abraham / bute, wouldn't hurt. i'd love for froch to get 1 special win, get himself in the p4p lists. he can do it if the right opponent is delivered.

Khan still has time on his hands, but he will need to step up on his defensive attributes and general ring craft and composure. He has fast hands and a good repatoire of punches and is acurate, but he lacks an all round approach. He relies too much on his speed, diving inside, pot shots and moves out. He doesn't know how to box in the pocket, he can't box on the back foot and he can't negotiate himself off the ropes, which is why he gets into tough scraps too easily. A good pressure fighter who can also counter punch and have good ring generalship in closing down an opponent would be a nightmare for Khan. I am not sure that he can do much outside of his natural abilities, good fighter though he is at times.

[Autobarn]

As Parson Cross said, Froch is already a British great. I don't think that Burns is anywhere near being a British great. Khan has had some decent wins, ie, Maidana and Judah, but has had too many bad performances and lost three times as a result, so he wouldn't make a great list for me. Haye did most of his good work at Cruiserweight, which is a division that gets largely ignored. Haye would have to beat Wladimir to have any chance of gaining entry.

khan also has that amateur success, which gives him a bit of a head start. i'd like a win over alexander, i'd love a kell brook fight: it'd feature amazing speed, and i'd like a win over a strong pressure fighter to put the Garcia & Peterson fights behind him, for good.

burns - a rising in weight gamboa, and a unification with Vazquez, 'd do it for me.

froch - revenge over ward (difficult), or a win over Stevenson at light heavy. another classic vs Kessler won't do it for me. another domination of a world class opponent, as per Abraham / bute, wouldn't hurt. i'd love for froch to get 1 special win, get himself in the p4p lists. he can do it if the right opponent is delivered.

Khan still has time on his hands, but he will need to step up on his defensive attributes and general ring craft and composure. He has fast hands and a good repatoire of punches and is acurate, but he lacks an all round approach. He relies too much on his speed, diving inside, pot shots and moves out. He doesn't know how to box in the pocket, he can't box on the back foot and he can't negotiate himself off the ropes, which is why he gets into tough scraps too easily. A good pressure fighter who can also counter punch and have good ring generalship in closing down an opponent would be a nightmare for Khan. I am not sure that he can do much outside of his natural abilities, good fighter though he is at times.

khan was awful vs Julio diaz. absolutely awful. I think he can do a lot better. I believe he can beat some of the fast welters, such as alexander. khan v brook could be very, very exciting. 2 of the fastest brits I've ever seen, and they don't seem to like each other. these 2 fights could do something big for khan (or, the same two fights could really lift brook...).

stay away from the strong guys or hitters though, because khan spends so much energy with all that movement and doesn't seem able to relax in there. ironically it's the slow strong guys who catch him, when he slows down.