Cuba's Greatest Fighter?

[elmersalsa]

Who in your view is your pick as the island of Cuba's greatest fighter ever? Cuba had some tremendous fighters through the years, especially in the 1940s to 1960s. I do not mention the amateur fighters even though they dominated the sport in the olympics, Pan American and world amateur championships.

My pick as Cuba's greatest gotta be the great Kid Gavilan. What a fighter!

[dempseyfire]

I second Gavilan but Chocolate is a close #2

[Rover]

I second Gavilan but Chocolate is a close #2

x3 on Gavilan; agree with you on Chocolate.

[giacomino]

Hard to go wrong w/Gavilan at #1, but Napoles and Rodriguez were strong too. Both were tremendous boxers. Dug watching Legra too. I remember seeing some old footage of him in Spain and he was a stud. Butchered a very good Winstone in '68 to win a belt

[Rover]

Hard to go wrong w/Gavilan at #1, but Napoles and Rodriguez were strong too. Both were tremendous boxers. Dug watching Legra too. I remember seeing some old footage of him in Spain and he was a stud. Butchered a very good Winstone in '68 to win a belt

He destroyed Clemente Sanchez; I think he had him down something like 11 times.

[Seamus]

1. Napoles 2.Chocolate 3.Rodriguez 4.Gavilan 5.Ramos

[elmersalsa]

One of the few polls that has given justice. The great Kid Gavilan was amazing. Never been KO'd over 130 fights? That alone is greatness within itself.

[pbchron]

The old-time Cuban fight followers claimed that Kid Tunero was the best. He had wins over Ken Overlin, Ezzard Charles, Anton Christoforidis, Holman Williams, Jose Basora, Marcel Thil and a scores of other top guys. He was stopped only once in his career.
I pick Gavilan # 1 and I think Rodriguez is one of the most underrated boxers of all time. I thought he won 3 out of four of the Griffith fights and the KO he suffered in the Benvenuti match was a complete sham. Rodriguez was easily handling Nino when the officials made it unbearable for Rodriguez. The threat of disqualification made Luis fight straight up, afraid to work anywhere inside and made him change his attack to the point he became an easy target for the "lucky" left hook that Benvenuti landed to end the fight.
Legra is another underrated fighter. And Napoles was superb. I have all but Legra ahead of Chocolate, who was another amazing Cuban fighting machine.

[The End]

Napoles for me.

[Rover]

It's too bad we'll never know if any great fighters were prevented from turning pro and showing their greatness due to Cuba's governmental restrictions.

[RadioElRadar]

Here's an interesting article from Badlefthook in the aftermath of Rigondeaux's win over Donaire:

http://www.badlefthook.com/2013/4/17/42 ... rigondeaux

The top 10 is:

10. Florentino Fernandez
9. Benny Kid Paret
8. Kid Tunero
7. Jose Legra
6. Sugar Ramos
5. Joel Casamayor
4. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
3. Jose Napoles
2. Kid Chocolate
1. Kid Gavilan

[Rover]

Here's an interesting article from Badlefthook in the aftermath of Rigondeaux's win over Donaire:

http://www.badlefthook.com/2013/4/17/42 ... rigondeaux

The top 10 is:

10. Florentino Fernandez
9. Benny Kid Paret
8. Kid Tunero
7. Jose Legra
6. Sugar Ramos
5. Joel Casamayor
4. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
3. Jose Napoles
2. Kid Chocolate
1. Kid Gavilan

Casa's too high IMHO.

[Crease]

Kid Chocolate for me.

[Borinken25]

I voted for Gavilan.

1. Gavilan
2. Chocolate
3. Luis Manuel Rodriguez
4. Napoles
5. Ramos

[shove-aloe]

All of the boxers mentioned fought pro. That doesn't mean they were better than the amateurs who chose to never fight outside of the amateur ranks.

My top pick would be Téofilo Stevenson followed by Félix Savon. Savon had a 362-21 record and avenged every loss with 3 Olympic golds. Stevenson had a 302-22 record and 3 olympic golds. Stevenson went 11 years without a loss. Guillermo Rigondeaux had an amateur record of 400-12 and is undefeated as a pro.
Rigo is arguably in the top 3 P4P in the pro ranks.

The question is whether you can really count Savon and Stevenson out of the equation because they didn't fight pro. Greatness is greatness. I don't think you can compare or say one form of boxing is better.

[Crease]

My top pick would be Téofilo Stevenson followed by Félix Savon.

If Stevenson is elligible in this conversation then he would be my number one pick too.

[elmersalsa]

Too bad Stevenson was not pro. I read in the 70s that he was supposed to fight the great Muhammad Ali somewhere around 1975 or '76. Why the fight did not materialized?

[enrique]

As far as the greatest Cuban fighter an argument can be made for Chocolate, Gavilan, Napoles and Rodriguez for a first place tie. They all had merits to qualify for the first spot.

As far as the comments on Stevenson, he was a great amateur fighter but not even considered the best Cuban fighter of the Castro era -Cubans would argue that Adolfo Horta and Kindelan were better- also he was far from invincible and the alleged match with Ali was pure Castro propaganda but never seriously considered.

In spite of all his medals and stellar amateur record, Stevenson lost to Duane Bobick (one out of two) twice to Francesco Damiani and to Igor Visotsky as well as defeats at the hands of Craig Payne, Peter Somner, Alexander Krupkin, Bern Adner and Orlando Castillo, all good amateurs but had Stevenson turned pro he would have faced -on his way to Ali- a top ten tier that included Holmes, Shavers, Foreman, Frazier, Quarry and Lyle among others.

As for Savon, although his record was superb, he was stopped eighteen times in his amateur career, including a loss to a little known Korean heavyweight named Lee Dal Han.

Under proper management and well matched Stevenson and Savon would have both earned fortunes in the pro ranks but no one will know how far they could have reached. Professional boxing and amateur pugilism vary greatly and there is no guaranteed stardom.

[Borinken25]

All of the boxers mentioned fought pro. That doesn't mean they were better than the amateurs who chose to never fight outside of the amateur ranks.

My top pick would be Téofilo Stevenson followed by Félix Savon. Savon had a 362-21 record and avenged every loss with 3 Olympic golds. Stevenson had a 302-22 record and 3 olympic golds. Stevenson went 11 years without a loss. Guillermo Rigondeaux had an amateur record of 400-12 and is undefeated as a pro.
Rigo is arguably in the top 3 P4P in the pro ranks.

The question is whether you can really count Savon and Stevenson out of the equation because they didn't fight pro. Greatness is greatness. I don't think you can compare or say one form of boxing is better.

shove-aloe,

At the professional level is where you find out who is who. Greatness is measured at the professional level, not the amateurs. Ask anybody who was the better fighter Ali or Savon/Stevenson and the response is going to be always Ali because his success is measured at the professional level. Also, at the professional level is where you really can measure a fighter heart, chin, and power.

Having said that, I disagree with your assessment of Cuba’s greatest fighter. Having a great career at the amateurs does not guarantee that you are a great fighter at the professional level. Many great amateurs fighters did not live up to their expectations of great fighters at the professional level. Just look at Mugabi’s amateur record (195-5) and he did not have a HOF career as expected. An even better example would be Howard Davis Jr. Won gold at the Olympics and beat Leonard and Spinks at the amateur level. And yet he lost to Rosario that only had about 32 amateur fights and would have surely lost to Davis at the amateurs. Another big disappointment Jeff Lacy over 200 won fights at the amateur level and we all know how disappointing his career was.

Then you have fighters that at the amateur career did nothing like Duran and Chavez and became great fighters.

Cotto was beaten by Adulaev or whatever his name is as an amateur and then Cotto became a better fighter at the professional level and got his revenge.

[dempseyfire]

All of the boxers mentioned fought pro. That doesn't mean they were better than the amateurs who chose to never fight outside of the amateur ranks.

My top pick would be Téofilo Stevenson followed by Félix Savon. Savon had a 362-21 record and avenged every loss with 3 Olympic golds. Stevenson had a 302-22 record and 3 olympic golds. Stevenson went 11 years without a loss. Guillermo Rigondeaux had an amateur record of 400-12 and is undefeated as a pro.
Rigo is arguably in the top 3 P4P in the pro ranks.

The question is whether you can really count Savon and Stevenson out of the equation because they didn't fight pro. Greatness is greatness. I don't think you can compare or say one form of boxing is better.

shove-aloe,

At the professional level is where you find out who is who. Greatness is measured at the professional level, not the amateurs. Ask anybody who was the better fighter Ali or Savon/Stevenson and the response is going to be always Ali because his success is measured at the professional level. Also, at the professional level is where you really can measure a fighter heart, chin, and power.

Having said that, I disagree with your assessment of Cuba’s greatest fighter. Having a great career at the amateurs does not guarantee that you are a great fighter at the professional level. Many great amateurs fighters did not live up to their expectations of great fighters at the professional level. Just look at Mugabi’s amateur record (195-5) and he did not have a HOF career as expected. An even better example would be Howard Davis Jr. Won gold at the Olympics and beat Leonard and Spinks at the amateur level. And yet he lost to Rosario that only had about 32 amateur fights and would have surely lost to Davis at the amateurs. Another big disappointment Jeff Lacy over 200 won fights at the amateur level and we all know how disappointing his career was.

Then you have fighters that at the amateur career did nothing like Duran and Chavez and became great fighters.

Cotto was beaten by Adulaev or whatever his name is as an amateur and then Cotto became a better fighter at the professional level and got his revenge.

Add to that the long list of exceptional Cuban AMs who faltered greatly as pros. In the last 30 years only Casamayor and (so far) Rigondeaux have broken that trend.

[Rover]

As far as the greatest Cuban fighter an argument can be made for Chocolate, Gavilan, Napoles and Rodriguez for a first place tie. They all had merits to qualify for the first spot.

As far as the comments on Stevenson, he was a great amateur fighter but not even considered the best Cuban fighter of the Castro era -Cubans would argue that Adolfo Horta and Kindelan were better- also he was far from invincible and the alleged match with Ali was pure Castro propaganda but never seriously considered.

In spite of all his medals and stellar amateur record, Stevenson lost to Duane Bobick (one out of two) twice to Francesco Damiani and to Igor Visotsky as well as defeats at the hands of Craig Payne, Peter Somner, Alexander Krupkin, Bern Adner and Orlando Castillo, all good amateurs but had Stevenson turned pro he would have faced -on his way to Ali- a top ten tier that included Holmes, Shavers, Foreman, Frazier, Quarry and Lyle among others.

As for Savon, although his record was superb, he was stopped eighteen times in his amateur career, including a loss to a little known Korean heavyweight named Lee Dal Han.

Under proper management and well matched Stevenson and Savon would have both earned fortunes in the pro ranks but no one will know how far they could have reached. Professional boxing and amateur pugilism vary greatly and there is no guaranteed stardom.

Dead on target about the amateurs.

[Rover]

All of the boxers mentioned fought pro. That doesn't mean they were better than the amateurs who chose to never fight outside of the amateur ranks.

My top pick would be Téofilo Stevenson followed by Félix Savon. Savon had a 362-21 record and avenged every loss with 3 Olympic golds. Stevenson had a 302-22 record and 3 olympic golds. Stevenson went 11 years without a loss. Guillermo Rigondeaux had an amateur record of 400-12 and is undefeated as a pro.
Rigo is arguably in the top 3 P4P in the pro ranks.

The question is whether you can really count Savon and Stevenson out of the equation because they didn't fight pro. Greatness is greatness. I don't think you can compare or say one form of boxing is better.

shove-aloe,

At the professional level is where you find out who is who. Greatness is measured at the professional level, not the amateurs. Ask anybody who was the better fighter Ali or Savon/Stevenson and the response is going to be always Ali because his success is measured at the professional level. Also, at the professional level is where you really can measure a fighter heart, chin, and power.

Having said that, I disagree with your assessment of Cuba’s greatest fighter. Having a great career at the amateurs does not guarantee that you are a great fighter at the professional level. Many great amateurs fighters did not live up to their expectations of great fighters at the professional level. Just look at Mugabi’s amateur record (195-5) and he did not have a HOF career as expected. An even better example would be Howard Davis Jr. Won gold at the Olympics and beat Leonard and Spinks at the amateur level. And yet he lost to Rosario that only had about 32 amateur fights and would have surely lost to Davis at the amateurs. Another big disappointment Jeff Lacy over 200 won fights at the amateur level and we all know how disappointing his career was.

Then you have fighters that at the amateur career did nothing like Duran and Chavez and became great fighters.

Cotto was beaten by Adulaev or whatever his name is as an amateur and then Cotto became a better fighter at the professional level and got his revenge.

Add to that the long list of exceptional Cuban AMs who faltered greatly as pros. In the last 30 years only Casamayor and (so far) Rigondeaux have broken that trend.

Gamboa, despite his inactivity, has also done well.

[Nile4000]

Stevenson was in his prime, and never avenged those defeats to Vysotsky. Always felt that Page, and possibly Marvis Frazier may have beaten him as well.So he can't be in the running for Cuba's greatest fighter.

[King Carlos]

I voted Napoles, but you can't go wrong with Gavilan or Rodriguez. Those 3 are clear cut at the top, the order doesn't matter. After them you gotta go with Chocolate.

[Rover]

I'm glad Stevenson and Savon aren't getting much consideration.