common opinions you disagree with

[SaadOffTheDeck]

There was nothing lopsided about the second fight. It was very close. Not that I expect any objectivity from you in regards to Leonard or Ali.

[Cherrybomb]

I like Leonard and can't stand Duran, any you are vice versa, so we will seldom find common ground here.

I disagree with much of this. First, Leonard was much more effective fighting at long range. Sure, Duran will still have his moments when Leonard fought from the outside, and sure Leonard will occasionally have his fighting on the inside. However, generally Leonard is much better off fighting from long range. He could use his speed, reach, and clean punching advantages there.

I don't accept that Duran fought the "wrong" fight the 2nd time. He tried to do what he did in the first fight and what he tried to do in most of his fights. However, Leonard fought a completely different fight and more like he normally did. The result was that Leonard handled him much easier. Had they fought a 3rd time six months or a year later, the result would have been similar to the 2nd fight except Duran probably would not have quit again; he would have lost a lopsided decision.

There is a reason that Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran never fought as a welterweight again and moved out of Leonard's weight class. He was not going to beat Leonard again and he knew it.

Why are you talking about Leonard-Duran 1 as if it were a hypothetical matchup? Yes, generally Leonard may have been a better fighter from long range but he was one hell of an all-rounder. This is not a theoretical exercise, its a watch-observe-conclude excercise. All you have to do is open your eyes and see that Duran was putting a beating on him from long range for the first 5 rounds. No one predicted it, but thats what happened. And Duran wasnt occasionally having his moments from the outside. He was consistently whipping his ass for 5 rounds from the outside.

And sorry, but LOL at Duran moving up because he knew he couldnt beat Leonard again Duran was a disgraced fighter after the no mas fight, no way he was getting the rubber match anytime soon. He wasnt pulling the shots anymore, nobody wanted to promote him. Furthermore, his eating and drinking habits (which are well documented), especially after Leonard 1 were never gonna allow him to stay at the weight very long. Oh yeah, and he did fight Leonard again in '89.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I like Leonard and can't stand Duran, any you are vice versa, so we will seldom find common ground here.

I disagree with much of this. First, Leonard was much more effective fighting at long range. Sure, Duran will still have his moments when Leonard fought from the outside, and sure Leonard will occasionally have his fighting on the inside. However, generally Leonard is much better off fighting from long range. He could use his speed, reach, and clean punching advantages there.

I don't accept that Duran fought the "wrong" fight the 2nd time. He tried to do what he did in the first fight and what he tried to do in most of his fights. However, Leonard fought a completely different fight and more like he normally did. The result was that Leonard handled him much easier. Had they fought a 3rd time six months or a year later, the result would have been similar to the 2nd fight except Duran probably would not have quit again; he would have lost a lopsided decision.

There is a reason that Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran never fought as a welterweight again and moved out of Leonard's weight class. He was not going to beat Leonard again and he knew it.

Why are you talking about Leonard-Duran 1 as if it were a hypothetical matchup? Yes, generally Leonard may have been a better fighter from long range but he was one hell of an all-rounder. This is not a theoretical exercise, its a watch-observe-conclude excercise. All you have to do is open your eyes and see that Duran was putting a beating on him from long range for the first 5 rounds. No one predicted it, but thats what happened. And Duran wasnt occasionally having his moments from the outside. He was consistently whipping his ass for 5 rounds from the outside.

And sorry, but LOL at Duran moving up because he knew he couldnt beat Leonard again Duran was a disgraced fighter after the no mas fight, no way he was getting the rubber match anytime soon. He wasnt pulling the shots anymore, nobody wanted to promote him. Furthermore, his eating and drinking habits (which are well documented), especially after Leonard 1 were never gonna allow him to stay at the weight very long. Oh yeah, and he did fight Leonard again in '89.

[Ambling Alp II]

I like Leonard and can't stand Duran, any you are vice versa, so we will seldom find common ground here.

I disagree with much of this. First, Leonard was much more effective fighting at long range. Sure, Duran will still have his moments when Leonard fought from the outside, and sure Leonard will occasionally have his fighting on the inside. However, generally Leonard is much better off fighting from long range. He could use his speed, reach, and clean punching advantages there.

I don't accept that Duran fought the "wrong" fight the 2nd time. He tried to do what he did in the first fight and what he tried to do in most of his fights. However, Leonard fought a completely different fight and more like he normally did. The result was that Leonard handled him much easier. Had they fought a 3rd time six months or a year later, the result would have been similar to the 2nd fight except Duran probably would not have quit again; he would have lost a lopsided decision.

There is a reason that Roberto "Forever a Lightweight" Duran never fought as a welterweight again and moved out of Leonard's weight class. He was not going to beat Leonard again and he knew it.

Why are you talking about Leonard-Duran 1 as if it were a hypothetical matchup? Yes, generally Leonard may have been a better fighter from long range but he was one hell of an all-rounder. This is not a theoretical exercise, its a watch-observe-conclude excercise. All you have to do is open your eyes and see that Duran was putting a beating on him from long range for the first 5 rounds. No one predicted it, but thats what happened. And Duran wasnt occasionally having his moments from the outside. He was consistently whipping his ass for 5 rounds from the outside.

And sorry, but LOL at Duran moving up because he knew he couldnt beat Leonard again Duran was a disgraced fighter after the no mas fight, no way he was getting the rubber match anytime soon. He wasnt pulling the shots anymore, nobody wanted to promote him. Furthermore, his eating and drinking habits (which are well documented), especially after Leonard 1 were never gonna allow him to stay at the weight very long. Oh yeah, and he did fight Leonard again in '89.

Not talking about the first fight as if it was a hypothetical matchup. When Leonard fought from the outside he did better than he did on the inside, for the most part. Duran consistently whipped his ass for the first 5 rounds? Wow.

He was never going to stay 147 for long ? Interesting that lightweight could not even make the 147 pound limit anymore.

Look what happened in the 2nd fight. Leonard for the most part fought at long range and Duran for the most part could not do much. He knew he could not win and quit.
That was the blueprint for beating Duran. Benitez fought a similar fight against Duran and again Duran could not deal with it.

Duran had eating and drinking problems? Don't care.

[bollox]

Oh.

In the past I've thought the same thing There must be 2 Seamus's's's's on planet earth that are boxing fans

[Seamus]

Hope he hasn't said anything I'll have to explain.

[man]

to me it is difficult to establish who was the better
man prime for prime. i think leonard went toe to toe
out of pride. believing duran coming from light weight
would mean he could show him who's the man. i think
ray was too proud and too young to change the plan,
once it was clear it ain't gonna work. i think leonard
fighting smarter, meaning he uses his feet to stay out
of range, would give him the close edge in an already
close fight. but of course fighting the right fight is part
of the game too. who better to know that than leonard.
so he was in fact beaten fair and square.

no mas is irrelevant as a fight IMO. i believe leonard
when he said in an interview that he wanted the rematch
as soon as possible, because duran had gained so much
weight after the first, that he could make the weight only
at big cost in terms of strength and stamina. i think roberto
did feel weak and bad and thought he would a third one
quickly. he was just naive about the consequences of quitting
on national television. no mas definitely no big victory for ray.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

[man]

if sugar ray leonard in his prime decides to
stay out ofrange, he can do that no matter
who else is in the ring. nothing wrong with
admiring roberto, but seeing him like the
complete dominator of the first fight to the
extent that he left sugar with no choice
about the style of the fight is a stretch.

if i recall correctly the commentators right
from the first seconds noticed that ray
chose an unexpectec strategy.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

[Cherrybomb]

Not talking about the first fight as if it was a hypothetical matchup. When Leonard fought from the outside he did better than he did on the inside, for the most part. Duran consistently whipped his ass for the first 5 rounds? Wow.

He was never going to stay 147 for long ? Interesting that lightweight could not even make the 147 pound limit anymore.

Look what happened in the 2nd fight. Leonard for the most part fought at long range and Duran for the most part could not do much. He knew he could not win and quit.
That was the blueprint for beating Duran. Benitez fought a similar fight against Duran and again Duran could not deal with it.

Duran had eating and drinking problems? Don't care.

You sure did, I even highlighted the words for you that made it hypothetical rethorics.

Either way, ignoring Durans eating and drinking habits is ignoring one of the most important facts in this discussion. No wonder you are confused about his rise in weight. Making radically wrong assumptions is a very efficient way of deducing radically wrong conclusions and you seem to be the champ at that.

Yup, the Duran from Leonard 1 is clearly the same fighter as the one from Leonard 2 and the Benitez fight He lost to Kirkland Laing right after the Benitez fight. Yeah, thats a hint for you. I wish you a day full of enlightenment.

[man]

Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Excellent Analysis........

no. it is not an excellent analysis.

commentators immediately mention the unexpected,
flat footed fight plan of ray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF5SEhdstE

interview with leonard after the fight. between 4:30
and 5:15 leonard is asked about his strategy. at 6:45
he says what he would do in the rematch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcgpf6TK39c

and finally the second fight. you immediately
see leonard on his toes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGbP1lwLYSE

compare the first seconds in both fights and you
see the difference immediately appearing, before
ray was even hit.

now, it still might be the case that all this is nonsense
and that duran had the ability to completely dictate the
style of the fight in the first bout and miraculously lost
this capability within a few months. there just seems to
be some evidence against that view.

[yancey]

Cosell was all over Vito. When I watched it live I had Hagler by 3 or 5, I don't recall exactly. Years later when I watched it I had Marvin by 9 rounds. Huge robbery.

Yes, that decision was a big time screw job.

[yancey]

Back to topic, I think it would be commonly thought that Marciano would destroy Jerry Quarry.

I'm not sure about that.

[keithmoonhangover]

Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Leonard comes out at the start of the first round, flat footed, I suppose he had no choice in that?

[BoxBuzz]

Back to topic, I think it would be commonly thought that Marciano would destroy Jerry Quarry.

I'm not sure about that.

Quarry proved himself to have had the worst timing of all boxers in history. At least in terms of his birth date. Here is a guy who gives his best, and really does well against every opponent that the top two guys had to face during that era. But he gets beat like a dog by two of the best HW's in history as part of his "re-occuring character role" lol.

I do believe he would have been a champion in any other era. Way I see it, even his losses outside of JF and MA were losses he could have, or would have avenged. Or he might not have lost to to begin with, if it hadn't been for the beatings he got from those "other" two guys. Though they were almost different eras, even the third guy in this trilogy of greats GF, openly admits to having felt the need to avoid him.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Excellent Analysis........

no. it is not an excellent analysis.

commentators immediately mention the unexpected,
flat footed fight plan of ray.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHF5SEhdstE

interview with leonard after the fight. between 4:30
and 5:15 leonard is asked about his strategy. at 6:45
he says what he would do in the rematch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcgpf6TK39c

and finally the second fight. you immediately
see leonard on his toes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGbP1lwLYSE

compare the first seconds in both fights and you
see the difference immediately appearing, before
ray was even hit.

now, it still might be the case that all this is nonsense
and that duran had the ability to completely dictate the
style of the fight in the first bout and miraculously lost
this capability within a few months. there just seems to
be some evidence against that view.

Commentators and a fighter making excuses after a loss? That's your 'proof'?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Leonard comes out at the start of the first round, flat footed, I suppose he had no choice in that?

He could have bounced on his toes and immediately been bulled into the ropes like he was anytime he looked for some room. There was only one way that fight was going down, especially with the way Padilla reffed it.

[man]

Commentators and a fighter making excuses after a loss? That's your 'proof'?

commentators saying it right after the first fight has
started and the fighter making a prediction about how
he will enter the rematch ... well to me that seems
substantially better than what you have to offer: a
personal opinion.

but let's end this here. we disagree. that's all for me.

[Counter-puncher]

Leonard went toe to toe because he had no choice. Duran wouldn't let him fight any other way and Padilla wasn't going to break when Roberto was fighting in the clinch. Ray could have had any game plan he wanted and he would have ended up going toe to toe or getting run out of the ring.

I thought it was one of Ray's best performances. The guy he was facing was a fighting machine. The biggest problem for Ray wasn't that he slugged it out, it was that Duran was significantly better defensively and quicker with his feet.

Duran's closing speed with his feet was a hugely underplayed part of that victory

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Commentators and a fighter making excuses after a loss? That's your 'proof'?

commentators saying it right after the first fight has
started and the fighter making a prediction about how
he will enter the rematch ... well to me that seems
substantially better than what you have to offer: a
personal opinion.

but let's end this here. we disagree. that's all for me.

I'm offering the unadulterated truth. Not that it's a new topic. Nobody will ever change their mind. Leonard fighting the wrong fight is up there with Tyson's prime abruptly ended at Douglas are probably the long standing excuses that make me laugh the most.

[keithmoonhangover]

He could have bounced on his toes and immediately been bulled into the ropes like he was anytime he looked for some room. There was only one way that fight was going down, especially with the way Padilla reffed it.

But he didn't bounce. He chose not to. Watch the start of the fight again and you'll see.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He could have bounced on his toes and immediately been bulled into the ropes like he was anytime he looked for some room. There was only one way that fight was going down, especially with the way Padilla reffed it.

But he didn't bounce. He chose not to. Watch the start of the fight again and you'll see.

I've seen the fight many times, that has nothing to do with my point anyway. Duran's pressure and closing speed in that fight was impervious to backward movement. Watch the fight again and you'll see.

[keithmoonhangover]

I've seen the fight many times, that has nothing to do with my point anyway. Duran's pressure and closing speed in that fight was impervious to backward movement. Watch the fight again and you'll see.

I watched it yesterday and Leonard chose to stand and trade, that is a fact. You thinking it wouldn't have mattered if he had gone on his toes, is just opinion.

[Ambling Alp II]

You are making too much sense for the haters.
When rating Leonard, I think he should get criticized for not fighting a smart fight the first time. It cost him. In the 2nd fight, he fought a smart fight and won.He should get a lot of credit for that.
People can make all the excuses they want, but at the end of the day that is what it amounts to; excuses.