Rocky Marciano small heavyweight

[loaded_gloves]

Where were these physics you describe when Jack Dempsey punched right through a whopping 60lb weight deficit and crushed the much bigger, stronger, and very durable Jess Willard?

Explain your physics please.

A modern example. Light heavyweight Michael Moorer overpowering, knocking around, icing a 7 ft tall, 280lb Mike White.

Please explain the physics.

[dempseyfire]

Why can't people comprehend Marciano workedhis body brutally for months to get down to his peak fighting weight.

The same way heavyweights of today eat for months to reach their peak fighting obesity.

A man with Rocky Marciano's frame but none of his fighting spirit and way too much extra weight spooked Lennox Lewis -the most atheletic, coordinated and gifted of the big men- enough to keep him focussed and running for 12 rds.

Tua being a little man didn't seem to make him less of a threat to LL- the man was a born puncher. Like Marciano. Like Frazier. Like Tyson.

You cannot compare these extraordinary men of yesteryear to some nonentities of today simply because they might have the same frame.

Nice comparison with Tua - same height as Rocky, slightly longer reach, started his career at 201lb and was chubby for most of his career, even at his prime in the 220s. Even at 210lb against Mauricio Villegas he has no visible abdominal muscles. Tua would have been a better heavyweight had he fought his career at 205lb - more than enough power, strong chin and would have been faster with better stamina.

This is just typical armchair speculation. Lighter isn't always better. It's actually a fact that a lot of heavies don't like coming too light. Not everyone hit and moves, counter punching style. Fighters who stay inside, use a physical style don't want to be pushed around in there. You might be suggesting that Rocky Marciano was just a freakishly strong guy, but at 185 pounds he just isn't going to be imposing his will on 240 pound heavies with the best will in the world. It's just physics! Realistically being light only works when you do a Roy Jones/David Haye. That was never Rocky's style now was it!

Clearly you have never boxed. For starters, Tua at 205-210 wouldn't be sapped of strength; that's what he would've weighed after undergoing standard rigorous training and laying off the fat-laced Samoan cuisine. 2ndly, for a shorter heavyweight with shorter arms, be it a Frazier, Tyson, or Tua, the key to getting on the inside is FOOTWORK. You have to keep low and keep off your flat feet to quickly close the distance and get to where you can do damage. I always predicted, correctly, that plodding flat-footing guys like Tua and Peter would have zero success vs the taller boxers with skill they faced because their flat-feet would also ensure they would be kept outside of punching distance on a regular basis.
To keep on your feet so you can quickly close the distance, lighter is better. Which is why Tyson was far more effective at 214-220 than over 220. Why Frazier was better at 200-210 than 215+ and why Tua would've been far more effective had he stayed at 205-215 than up in the 220s and beyond.
As for leaning in up close, it's also better to be lighter as a) that makes it far easier to switch angles once on the inside and b) in the long run, the heavier fighter will have increased lactic acid buildup as the fight progresses and tire out. If the fight becomes a messy smother-fest, the heavier fighter doesn't always have the advantage . . . Abe Simon outweighed Louis by 50 lbs and in their rematch after he got hurt in the 1st spent the next 5 rounds mostly trying to lay all over Joe and wear him out. Did it work? No, Simon just got beat up and more fatigued and eventually stopped because Louis kept shifting his feet on the inside and hitting Simon flush.
I know from experience in sparring guys significantly bigger and smaller than me that a smaller man constantly barging in and shifting inside angles can wear you out more than a larger guy coming in trying to smother you with his weight and strength.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Why are you guys still indulging this clown? It's full circle back to Carl freaking Thompson. He'll never stop trolling if you continue to feed him. And that's all it is. Nobody really believes that Johnny nelson would box the ears off of Marciano, not even Johnny nelson. Then again, I had a heated discussion with Rubin Williams the other day as he was telling me I know shit about Boxing because I think Ezzard Charles has a better resume than Floyd. So you never know.

[loaded_gloves]

I know. Polecat has a long, long crime sheet against him. It's one thing to have an opinion, but the stuff he comes out with is nothing short of schizophrenic.

I don't want to get drawn into name-calling or insults but the way this guy's mind works is totally insane.

Carl Thompson better than Marciano, honestly, my jaws hanging open. Unreal.

[Controversial]

Two of the stoppages were injuries.

One was a highly controversial stoppage with him still on his feet.

While the Davis stoppage was legit, he wasn't knocked cold.

So only one guy knocked him out.

I still can't work out how a blown up middleweight, in the twilight of his career, took Thompson 12 rounds and also decked him? Especially as Eubank was at least 20lbs heavier than he was against Calzaghe in his previous fight and had never fought at cruiserweight before. Also Calzaghe dropped Eubank yet the much bigger and harder punching Thompson couldn't?

[polecateddy]

I realised this morning that this Polecat guy is on the wind up. He's gone troll-fishing and has had a few of us on his hook.

Johnny Nelson clowns Marciano?
Most modern heavies are fitter than Marciano?
Roger Bannister trained as much as a modern day mile runner?

No-one actually thinks this stuff, not even teenagers so he's been having some fun on this thread.

I'm done with this clown.

It's not trolling. I Had a letter in Boxing News about my Johnny Nelson theory over 13 years ago. It's actually my genuine opinion. I'm not trying to wind you up, I just simply think all sports have progressed since the 1940/1950's. And in relation to this size thing, I've read a lot of heavies genuinely don't like to come in too light. Yes Tyson was 214, but there is a world of difference between that weight and 185 pounds!

[SamWise72]

The fact that you've been trolling for 13 years doesn't stop it being trolling. However, as much as Eddy is overrating Thompson, you guys are underrating him. He was NOT "knocked out innumerable times by journeymen". He wasn't absolutely top level in his era, still less to be compared with AtGs, but he wasn't the bum people are making out.

[Controversial]

The fact that you've been trolling for 13 years doesn't stop it being trolling. However, as much as Eddy is overrating Thompson, you guys are underrating him. He was NOT "knocked out innumerable times by journeymen". He wasn't absolutely top level in his era, still less to be compared with AtGs, but he wasn't the bum people are making out.

Yes Thompson was a dangerous and good fighter but still couldn't knock out a beefed up middleweight. Yet we are to believe he would demolish Marciano. I'm sure if Eubank can take Thompsons punches, and even floor Thompson, then Marciano would have no problems. Eubank not noted as a being a big puncher or a fighter that was known for outstanding stamina levels. Plus who did Eubank say hit him the hardest in his career, the big punching cruiserweight Thompson? No the middleweight Nigel Benn, how bizarre, lol.

[polecateddy]

The fact that you've been trolling for 13 years doesn't stop it being trolling. However, as much as Eddy is overrating Thompson, you guys are underrating him. He was NOT "knocked out innumerable times by journeymen". He wasn't absolutely top level in his era, still less to be compared with AtGs, but he wasn't the bum people are making out.

Yes Thompson was a dangerous and good fighter but still couldn't knock out a beefed up middleweight. Yet we are to believe he would demolish Marciano. I'm sure if Eubank can take Thompsons punches, and even floor Thompson, then Marciano would have no problems. Eubank not noted as a being a big puncher or a fighter that was known for outstanding stamina levels. Plus who did Eubank say but him the hardest in his career, the big punching cruiserweight Thompson? No the middleweight Nigel Benn, how bizarre, lol.

More embellishing going on again. I didn't at any point say Carl Thompson would 'demolish' Rocky Marciano. I simply said he could do anything Rocky could and in my opinion would have beaten him. Now I have no quarms saying Lennox Lewis would have demolished Rocky Marciano. I'm not completely alone in this kind of assessment of Rocky's actual abilities. Did all time great Larry Holmes not famously make a certain remark? And although I'm loath to bring in a UFC reference, how can it be if 185 pounders can bully and overpower your modern day 240-265 pounder, that Welterweights in the UFC don't routinely go after your Alister Overeems and Cain Vasquez's? ...too big, too strong! But of course 185 pound Rocky Marciano was of course born on Krypton!

[Controversial]

The fact that you've been trolling for 13 years doesn't stop it being trolling. However, as much as Eddy is overrating Thompson, you guys are underrating him. He was NOT "knocked out innumerable times by journeymen". He wasn't absolutely top level in his era, still less to be compared with AtGs, but he wasn't the bum people are making out.

Yes Thompson was a dangerous and good fighter but still couldn't knock out a beefed up middleweight. Yet we are to believe he would demolish Marciano. I'm sure if Eubank can take Thompsons punches, and even floor Thompson, then Marciano would have no problems. Eubank not noted as a being a big puncher or a fighter that was known for outstanding stamina levels. Plus who did Eubank say but him the hardest in his career, the big punching cruiserweight Thompson? No the middleweight Nigel Benn, how bizarre, lol.

More embellishing going on again. I didn't at any point say Carl Thompson would 'demolish' Rocky Marciano. I simply said he could do anything Rocky could and in my opinion would have beaten him. Now I have no quarms saying Lennox Lewis would have demolished Rocky Marciano. I'm not completely alone in this kind of assessment of Rocky's actual abilities. Did all time great Larry Holmes not famously make a certain remark? And although I'm loath to bring in a UFC reference, how can it be if 185 pounders can bully and overpower your modern day 240-265 pounder, that Welterweights in the UFC don't routinely go after your Alister Overeems and Cain Vasquez's? ...too big, too strong! But of course 185 pound Rocky Marciano was of course born on Krypton!

As you dodged how the 5'5" Qawi was competitive against the 6'3" Foreman even though Qawi was a former LHW, took the fight at two weeks notice and was so out of shape he was embarrassed to enter the ring (his words) I'm interested to hear why the much smaller and lighter hitting Eubank went the distance with someone so much bigger and stronger than him? He took some huge punches off Thompson and managed to floor him in the process yet was only a middleweight and had never fought a cruiserweight in his life. Doesn't that blow your argument about natural size and power out the window?

As far as UFC goes there are plenty of fights where little blokes beat much bigger guys. Look up the Gracie family. Or in MMA look up Yarbrough (600lb) vs Takase (169lb).

[polecateddy]

Ultimately Qawi's gas tank emptied pretty emphatically. And at the end of the day it was slow, old Foreman, not an elite performer such at Lewis or Klitschko. Look your mma references are very outdated. My point is these days weight divisions today in the top flight mma world are really hard to bridge. Your welterweights in the UFC (170 pounds, but easily 185 pounds on fight nights) simply can't go up against the giants anymore. There is another parallel I can see - in a sense Dan Severn from the early days of the UFC was a little like your Jess Willards, effectively big but inert. The giants today are killers, in the mma world anyway.

[Controversial]

Ultimately Qawi's gas tank emptied pretty emphatically. And at the end of the day it was slow, old Foreman, not an elite performer such at Lewis or Klitschko.

Exactly. Qawi would have been better to be 25lbs lighter, he would've been fitter so again goes to prove being heavy isn't always an advantage. Plus your argument that modern training techniques have greatly improved fighters is again blown out the water as Qawi was in the worse shape of his career. For someone who made such an issue of Marciano's height it's strange the same argument suddenly seems to have disappeared when Qawi was a good 5 inches shorter than Marciano. Foreman was still a huge puncher and not that much older than the Klitsckos now. I would still bet that one of his right hands would flatten either Klitscsko.

[polecateddy]

Ultimately Qawi's gas tank emptied pretty emphatically. And at the end of the day it was slow, old Foreman, not an elite performer such at Lewis or Klitschko.

Exactly. Qawi would have been better to be 25lbs lighter, he would've been fitter so again goes to prove being heavy isn't always an advantage. Plus your argument that modern training techniques have greatly improved fighters is again blown out the water as Qawi was in the worse shape of his career. For someone who made such an issue of Marciano's height it's strange the same argument suddenly seems to have disappeared when Qawi was a good 5 inches shorter than Marciano. Foreman was still a huge puncher and not that much older than the Klitsckos now. I would still bet that one of his right hands would flatten either Klitscsko.

Old George was a bit old and slow, and was more at a good B-fighter level, as evidenced by his Morrison and Schultz level of performances. You appear to be taking some rubbish about bulking up being bad for performance or something. Yes Qawi had no business being at heavyweight. But you arrange 6.4, 6.5 foot heavies are big and heavy naturally, but build further strength and muscle on top. All I am saying if Marciano would not beat mainstream heavyweight champions today, or in fact a number of the better cruiserweight champions of the today and the recent past.

[Controversial]

Ultimately Qawi's gas tank emptied pretty emphatically. And at the end of the day it was slow, old Foreman, not an elite performer such at Lewis or Klitschko.

Exactly. Qawi would have been better to be 25lbs lighter, he would've been fitter so again goes to prove being heavy isn't always an advantage. Plus your argument that modern training techniques have greatly improved fighters is again blown out the water as Qawi was in the worse shape of his career. For someone who made such an issue of Marciano's height it's strange the same argument suddenly seems to have disappeared when Qawi was a good 5 inches shorter than Marciano. Foreman was still a huge puncher and not that much older than the Klitsckos now. I would still bet that one of his right hands would flatten either Klitscsko.

Old George was a bit old and slow, and was more at a good B-fighter level, as evidenced by his Morrison and Schultz level of performances. You appear to be taking some rubbish about bulking up being bad for performance or something. Yes Qawi had no business being at heavyweight. But you arrange 6.4, 6.5 foot heavies are big and heavy naturally, but build further strength and muscle on top. All I am saying if Marciano would not beat mainstream heavyweight champions today, or in fact a number of the better cruiserweight champions of the today and the recent past.

And many of us have said Marciano wouldn't beat everyone either. Could I see Marciano standing toe to toe with Tyson, no not really. Could I see him beating Ali, yes I could. The argument however has been your insistence that HWs are so superior today that anyone from the 50s and before would be in a complete mismatch. Your insistence that modern training methods have created a new breed of HWs that are so much fitter and more skilled. It is complete nonsense and Eubank is a prime example of a much smaller guy than Marciano being very competitive with a fighter so much naturally bigger than him. As always styles makes fights and your argument is that Marciano trained wrong yet you cannot give examples of why that was the case? Then we watch a modern HW like Haye start blowing after 3 rounds and are expected to see that as progress? There are a ton of huge flabby HWs who we are meant to believe are fitter because they use interval training? If we are going to create fantasy fights you need to at least make them as even as possible. That means Marciano would either make himself heavier by using the sort of bulking up process Hoyfield used or the Klitsckos would train as someone in the 50s would train.

[polecateddy]

This isn't an argument based on Marciano training today and being bigger - especially as plenty of old timer types posting seem to be suggesting that modern training methods provide no benefit! Lol It has to be as he was then. And I have limited myself to credible champions. Not saying every flabby heavy or your Danny Williams, etc! But I do include heavies and cruisers. As for Eubank. A career super-middle but with an easy genetic ability to put on muscle. He in effect was a small framed cruiser. Carl was bigger and wore Chris out both times. To be fair Chris' eye let him down in the 2nd fight, where both fought better.

[orbtastic]

Two of the stoppages were injuries.

One was a highly controversial stoppage with him still on his feet.

While the Davis stoppage was legit, he wasn't knocked cold.

So only one guy knocked him out.

I still can't work out how a blown up middleweight, in the twilight of his career, took Thompson 12 rounds and also decked him? Especially as Eubank was at least 20lbs heavier than he was against Calzaghe in his previous fight and had never fought at cruiserweight before. Also Calzaghe dropped Eubank yet the much bigger and harder punching Thompson couldn't?

Eubank benefited from not boiling down to 168, he'd already struggled numerous times and in his last fight there had to drop something ridiculous like 30lbs in 2 weeks.

Thompson always struggled with fast, wide punches. Eubank could punch. I think calling him a blown-up middleweight is highly disingenuous, to say that he'd not been anywhere near 160 for the best part of ten years and had well documented struggles with the scales since then.

Eubank used his movement and relative speed advantage to outbox him, he didn't exactly stand there swinging for the hills. In fact in both fights it was only the facial injuries that allowed CAT to close the gap late on.

Eubank always had a tremendous chin - Thompson could hit but he was more a brute force/clubbing puncher than any sort of stylist or speedster. It's like saying how can a "light punching" Calzaghe drop him twice but yet Thompson can't over 21 rounds? Benn was reportedly the hardest hitter he faced yet he only dropped him once, and that was debatable. Look at the way CAT mashed up Eubank's eye twice.

[polecateddy]

Two of the stoppages were injuries.

One was a highly controversial stoppage with him still on his feet.

While the Davis stoppage was legit, he wasn't knocked cold.

So only one guy knocked him out.

I still can't work out how a blown up middleweight, in the twilight of his career, took Thompson 12 rounds and also decked him? Especially as Eubank was at least 20lbs heavier than he was against Calzaghe in his previous fight and had never fought at cruiserweight before. Also Calzaghe dropped Eubank yet the much bigger and harder punching Thompson couldn't?

Eubank benefited from not boiling down to 168, he'd already struggled numerous times and in his last fight there had to drop something ridiculous like 30lbs in 2 weeks.

Thompson always struggled with fast, wide punches. Eubank could punch. I think calling him a blown-up middleweight is highly disingenuous, to say that he'd not been anywhere near 160 for the best part of ten years and had well documented struggles with the scales since then.

Eubank used his movement and relative speed advantage to outbox him, he didn't exactly stand there swinging for the hills. In fact in both fights it was only the facial injuries that allowed CAT to close the gap late on.

Eubank always had a tremendous chin - Thompson could hit but he was more a brute force/clubbing puncher than any sort of stylist or speedster. It's like saying how can a "light punching" Calzaghe drop him twice but yet Thompson can't over 21 rounds? Benn was reportedly the hardest hitter he faced yet he only dropped him once, and that was debatable. Look at the way CAT mashed up Eubank's eye twice.

I concur! People can be very black and white. Eubank v Calzaghe needs to be put in context. From memory Eubank was going to be fighting Mark Prince at light-heavy in a non-title fight. He had effectively finished fighting at the 12 stone super-middle limit and stepped in against Calzaghe when the offer too good to turn down came through. Chris did suffer two flash-knock downs, but never looked like getting stopped. In probably his worst ever super-middle shape and weight-drained, Eubank still managed to badly stun Joe in the final round.

[orbtastic]

This doesn't mean I agree with your CAT/Marciano point!

[polecateddy]

This doesn't mean I agree with your CAT/Marciano point!

Okay, fair enough. I suppose part of me bringing cruisers into the mix is people always default to comparing to modern day heavyweight champs. The guys of Marciano's era were cruiserweights, so why overlook the actual cruiserweight champions. There are some really good ones mixed in there. And I agree, Carl wasn't the best of the bunch by any means. But then I don't think Marciano was either!

[SamWise72]

I also take issue with Eubank not being a puncher; he wasn't Julian Jackson, but he wasn't far off Benn, and his results confirm it, particularly before the Watson fight. Benn finished many fights earlier because of his incredibly aggressive style, not because he hit a huge amount harder then Eubank.


HOWEVER, if a career super middle can go life and death with Thompson, it's hard to see him standing up well against a guy who was a MORE noted puncher than Eubank, in a weight division where he didn't naturally belong in Rocky. Could Thompson outbox Marciano? For sure. Dennis Andries probably could! Could Thompson take his shots? Or fight 15 rounds at his pace? No. It's absolutely fair to say that the most exciting fights for Marciano are at Cruiserweight, and I would accept that Holy and maybe Qawi might beat him there, and that some others would give him a hard night. I would also accept that the best of the heavyweight division would all beat him, though I'd say he had a better chance against Tyson than Ali, contrary to what's said here. I absolutely do not accept that punching power today is so much better that a bloke with his rep would now be a non puncher, and I do not accept that many, if any, of today's fighters have much better stamina. I'll accept a peak Ali, and a peak Holyfield, and a peak Frazier as being just as able to go to the well as Rocky, but I'm not sure I can think of any others.

[polecateddy]

I also take issue with Eubank not being a puncher; he wasn't Julian Jackson, but he wasn't far off Benn, and his results confirm it, particularly before the Watson fight. Benn finished many fights earlier because of his incredibly aggressive style, not because he hit a huge amount harder then Eubank.


HOWEVER, if a career super middle can go life and death with Thompson, it's hard to see him standing up well against a guy who was a MORE noted puncher than Eubank, in a weight division where he didn't naturally belong in Rocky. Could Thompson outbox Marciano? For sure. Dennis Andries probably could! Could Thompson take his shots? Or fight 15 rounds at his pace? No. It's absolutely fair to say that the most exciting fights for Marciano are at Cruiserweight, and I would accept that Holy and maybe Qawi might beat him there, and that some others would give him a hard night. I would also accept that the best of the heavyweight division would all beat him, though I'd say he had a better chance against Tyson than Ali, contrary to what's said here. I absolutely do not accept that punching power today is so much better that a bloke with his rep would now be a non puncher, and I do not accept that many, if any, of today's fighters have much better stamina. I'll accept a peak Ali, and a peak Holyfield, and a peak Frazier as being just as able to go to the well as Rocky, but I'm not sure I can think of any others.

It seems a fair assessment. I may even retract my puncher becomes non-puncher comment. Just an aside, but didn't Tua v Ibeabuchi set the heavyweight punches thrown record with 1730 punches. Could Marciano have thrown kept up in that fight? Would his punches have been as powerful as these guys? Would he have been steamrolled? Food for thought I suppose. I guess there are heavies that can throw a lot of punches today, although I suppose against a Klitschko you don't get many opportunities to get them off.

[polecateddy]

Just for fun. Fight one, Rocky v Moore. Fight two, Lebedev v G. Jones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pPfPUQopfg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQV3iKIvKBU

I'm sorry, but Rocky looks a bit crude and he really isn't throwing more punches than you'd see in an average cruiserweight title fight. For my money Lebedev has a similar style to Rocky, but when you compare the two Lebedev is punching faster and showing better skills. I don't see how Rocky hits any harder than the Russian really.

[p4p1]

Are we really comparing boxing to a sport where wrestling is involved to make a comparison about size. It's apples and oranges, Melvin Manhoef could destroy Cain Velasquez standing with his ungodly power though.

[polecateddy]

Are we really comparing boxing to a sport where wrestling is involved to make a comparison about size. It's apples and oranges, Melvin Manhoef could destroy Cain Velasquez standing with his ungodly power though.

Just watch the video. Tell me then you would confidently predict global domination for Rocky today :)

[p4p1]

Ultimately Qawi's gas tank emptied pretty emphatically. And at the end of the day it was slow, old Foreman, not an elite performer such at Lewis or Klitschko. Look your mma references are very outdated. My point is these days weight divisions today in the top flight mma world are really hard to bridge. Your welterweights in the UFC (170 pounds, but easily 185 pounds on fight nights) simply can't go up against the giants anymore. There is another parallel I can see - in a sense Dan Severn from the early days of the UFC was a little like your Jess Willards, effectively big but inert. The giants today are killers, in the mma world anyway.

I disagree with the Dan Severn comment, He was very athletic but when he was beaten when he was younger it was because he hadn't spent enough time cross training. The top guys at HW by a country mile are Cain V and JDS both who are somewhere around 240 6'2 - 6'4 Hardly, Before them Fedor was the best HW in the world and he was around 6'1 to 6'2 and a pudgy 220 - 230 pounds. Not small guys but not giants at all. I see what you're saying size wise but it has a different meaning in the UFC because of the wrestling aspect makes it too different to compare it to boxing.