The Greatest Jr. Welterweight Fighter of All-Time?

[elmersalsa]

I have never said that the great Alexis Arguello was an all time great at jr welterweight. He did not had enough fights. But he was already considered an all time pound per pound great when he was trying to do something at the time nobody was able to do, and that was to win a fourth title. Plus, Arguello NEVER lost a title fight after he lost to Ernesto Marcel. Arguello cruised through the feathers, jr lightweights and lightweights with a title fight record of 19-1, winning 19 title fights in a row, and lost once in 41 bouts since 1974. That was against Vilomar Fernandez in '78. Pryor was an exciting and undefeated champion that at the point facing Alexis, won 25 or 26 fights in a row by knockout.

The climax and the anticipation of the fight was incredible. And the fight surpassed the expectations and Pryor, like an all time great, won. NO matter if there was a bottle or not. I saw a CLASH OF HEADS that kept Arguello DIZZY in that faithful round 14th. After the butt, Arguello did not throw a single punch. Maybe it was because he tried to clear the cobwebs.

No jr. welterweight in history had a better win than that. Chavez vs Taylor I, or Benitez vs Cervantes, do not come close.

Cervantes was far more accomplished at jr. welter when Benitez beat him. You're basing Pryor's greatness at a weight on a win over a fighter who had little in terms of accomplishments there (or at higher weights).
Is "anticipation" the best you have?

The great Alexis Arguello was by FAR, much more ACCOMPLISHED than Antonio Cervantes. Cervantes nor Meldrick Taylor makes the top 100 all time p4p in my view.

[klompton]

Not at jr welter he wasn't

[Rover]

I have never said that the great Alexis Arguello was an all time great at jr welterweight. He did not had enough fights. But he was already considered an all time pound per pound great when he was trying to do something at the time nobody was able to do, and that was to win a fourth title. Plus, Arguello NEVER lost a title fight after he lost to Ernesto Marcel. Arguello cruised through the feathers, jr lightweights and lightweights with a title fight record of 19-1, winning 19 title fights in a row, and lost once in 41 bouts since 1974. That was against Vilomar Fernandez in '78. Pryor was an exciting and undefeated champion that at the point facing Alexis, won 25 or 26 fights in a row by knockout.

The climax and the anticipation of the fight was incredible. And the fight surpassed the expectations and Pryor, like an all time great, won. NO matter if there was a bottle or not. I saw a CLASH OF HEADS that kept Arguello DIZZY in that faithful round 14th. After the butt, Arguello did not throw a single punch. Maybe it was because he tried to clear the cobwebs.

No jr. welterweight in history had a better win than that. Chavez vs Taylor I, or Benitez vs Cervantes, do not come close.

Cervantes was far more accomplished at jr. welter when Benitez beat him. You're basing Pryor's greatness at a weight on a win over a fighter who had little in terms of accomplishments there (or at higher weights).
Is "anticipation" the best you have?

The great Alexis Arguello was by FAR, much more ACCOMPLISHED than Antonio Cervantes. Cervantes nor Meldrick Taylor makes the top 100 all time p4p in my view.

I'm talking about jr. welterweight--you know, the division where the fights in question occurred and the division relevant to this thread.

[Rover]

Not at jr welter he wasn't

Elmer apparently hasn't grasped the nuance of our position.

[Mr E]

Jose Napoles could have made 140 for practically his whole career, and I think it would have taken a Roberto Duran or a Henry Armstrong to have (maybe) beaten him at that weight.

Napoles v. Duran v. Armstrong would have made quite a round-robin.

[Ambling Alp II]

I agree that Arguello did not fight a lot at Jr Welterweight and therefore can't be considered a great Jr Welterweight. However, in watching the Arguello-Pyror fights, it's obvious that Arguello was still a great fighter. Very few Jr Welterweights would have beaten him.

Cervantes was certainly past his best when Pryor beat him. However, he still had some gas in the tank and it's doubtful that many Jr Welterweights would have stopped him inside of four rounds.

What hurts Pryor's case the most is that there is a steep dropoff after this. There were some other good Jr Welterweights, around (such as Saoul Mamby, LeRoy Haley, Billy Costello) that Pryor could have taken on that would have improved his stock. He probably would have beaten them, but the bottom line is that he didn't.

Having said that,Pryor should not be dismissed so easily. He should not be rated as # 1 all time, but he was a great fighter.

[Borinken25]

Arguello did nothing at 140 that beating him at that weight would instantly qualify you as a great junior welter. Outside of Arguello (in his first fight at 140) and a very old Cervantes his resume is pretty weak (and lets not forget he needed help from a black bottle to beat Arguello). He's a heck of a lot of fun to watch but I dont think he proved himself as the greatest fighter in the history of his division.

Then, what fighters at 140lbs you think that were "better" than the Cincinnati Hawk? Let's give Pryor his due. He was a great fighter. A top 100 in my view? Yes!!!

I could give a long list that I think were better than Prior have they stay on that division.

Henry Armstrong
Lou Ambers
Baby Arizmendi
Wilfredo Benitez
Duilio Loi
Eddie Perkins
Nicolino Locche
Jimmy McLarning
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Benny Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran

All these fighter have they stay longer at light-welter there is no way we would be talking about Pryor being a top 10 on that division.

[hernanday]

This division had some great fighters in its boxing history. But it has been overshadowed by the lightweights and welterweights through the years. It is a great shame, because this weight class produced lots of great talent: Julio Cesar Chavez, Aaron Pryor, Antonio Cervantes, Nicolino Locche, Wilfred Benitez, Barney Ross, Jack "Kid" Berg, Mushy Callahan, Willie Joyce, Duilio Loi, Carlos Ortiz, Eddie Perkins, Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles and Kostya Tyzsu, who was the last great champion in that weight class.

Who in your view is the greatest jr. welterweight fighter of all-time and why?

It was not easy for me. I originally wanted to pick Pryor but I suspect he doped because of the bottle and something I have observed that boxers who doped fall over alot but do not get ko easily but do fall down easily. He is kind of flash in the pan and I have to rank arguello ahead of him because he has no controversey of drugs.

Chavez I almost chose, but iltimately I think Benitez at his best beats anyone at that weight.

[elmersalsa]

Arguello did nothing at 140 that beating him at that weight would instantly qualify you as a great junior welter. Outside of Arguello (in his first fight at 140) and a very old Cervantes his resume is pretty weak (and lets not forget he needed help from a black bottle to beat Arguello). He's a heck of a lot of fun to watch but I dont think he proved himself as the greatest fighter in the history of his division.

Then, what fighters at 140lbs you think that were "better" than the Cincinnati Hawk? Let's give Pryor his due. He was a great fighter. A top 100 in my view? Yes!!!

I could give a long list that I think were better than Prior have they stay on that division.

Henry Armstrong
Lou Ambers
Baby Arizmendi
Wilfredo Benitez
Duilio Loi
Eddie Perkins
Nicolino Locche
Jimmy McLarning
Tony Canzoneri
Barney Ross
Benny Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran

All these fighter have they stay longer at light-welter there is no way we would be talking about Pryor being a top 10 on that division.

That is your big mistake, sir. Half or three quarters of those boxers were not 140 pounders

[elmersalsa]

I still see the Jose 'Mantequilla' Napoles of 1965 thru 1968 as defeating everyone at 140 lbs.

At 5' 7 1/2", a 72" reach, and with superior boxing skills.....

Age Range......24 1/2 thru 28 1/2.

The man got screwed around by the Boxing Organizations, as he was the #1 Ranked Light-Welterweight
for 3+ years, and never got the opportunity to fight for the Championship.

You are right. By the time the great Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles fought for the World Welterweight Title, at 29, was considered too old. But he gave Curtis Cokes the beating of his life.

[klompton]

That is your big mistake, sir. Half or three quarters of those boxers were not 140 pounders

Just like Arguello...

[elmersalsa]

That is your big mistake, sir. Half or three quarters of those boxers were not 140 pounders

Just like Arguello...

I never said that Arguello was a jr welterweight. He was a legend going for his fourth crown in his fourth weight class against a formidable champion. Arguello gave Pryor lots of problems, but, like a great fighter, Pryor solved it, with bottle or not, he won.