Rocky Marciano versus Modern Heavyweights via Punch Count

[HomicideHenry]

In an earlier thread, I mentioned that I did a unofficial punch count of Rocky Marciano's fight with Archie Moore, which would be the last of Marciano's career. In total I came up with 691 punches thrown in nine rounds by Marciano. This got me to thinking, just how widespread was Marciano in comparison to modern heavyweights whom a minority of fans believe are superior athletes in virtually every way to older fighters of the past.

So over the course of weeks, I will do the punch count totals for some of Marciano's better known and lesser known fights that are available on film. Then I will do the punch count for the likes of Vladimir Klitschko, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, and Larry Holmes. Ultimately I hope to do a comparison between Marciano's punch rate and Muhammad Ali's punch rate.

As it stands, the punch total I got so far is 691 punches in the Moore fight thrown by Marciano alone.

[Controversial]

Good idea, I made it 100 in round 15 against Charles, majority power punches

[HomicideHenry]

Rocky Marciano versus Harry "Kid" Matthews (1952)

Round One: 54 punches thrown

Round Two: 35 punches thrown before knockout

Total: 89 punches

Marciano versus Walcott II

Round One: 29 punches before knockout (2:25)

Marciano versus LaStarza II

Round One: 39 punches thrown

Round Eight: 69 punches thrown

Round Nine: 89 punches thrown

Round Ten: 55 punches thrown

Round Eleven: 22 knockdown, at punch 35 the fight is stopped

Rocky Marciano versus Ezzard Charles

Round One: 30 punches thrown

Round Four: 36 punches thrown

Round Six: 89 punches thrown

Round Ten: 68 punches thrown

Round Fifteen: 96 punches thrown

-From the 6th round onward Marciano was relentless; most the 96 punches in the fifteenth was landed it is remarkable how Charles was able to stand on his feet at the finish

Marciano versus Charles II

-Three months later (believe it or not)

Round Two: 17 punches thrown, then knockdown, 24 punches

Round Four: 40 punches thrown

Round Five: 37 punches thrown

Round Six: 23 punches thrown (Marciano's nose gets split)

Round Eight: 36, knockdown, 40, knockout


Rocky Marciano versus Don Cockell

-Note: Cockell was the ONLY man who wasn't Marciano's #1 mandatory that he defended the title against; Cockell, the British & Commonwealth champion was ranked #2 in the world

Round Six: 36 punches thrown

Round Eight: 116 punches thrown (and most landed)

Round Nine: 10, knockdown, 21, knockdown, 23, fight is stopped

[polecateddy]

Why don't you could Adamek's punch count as a light-heavy, or Lebedev's as a cruiserweight. You'll probably find Rocky lagging behind. Totally insignificant! Why not count how many punches a round Vitali pounded on poor Shannon Briggs or Adamek himself.

[HomicideHenry]

Why don't you could Adamek's punch count as a light-heavy, or Lebedev's as a cruiserweight. You'll probably find Rocky lagging behind. Totally insignificant! Why not count how many punches a round Vitali pounded on poor Shannon Briggs or Adamek himself.

The difference, I think, would be the fact that virtually every punch Marciano threw was a power punch hook. He didnt bother jabbing, and throwing pitter pat punches would have made no sense considering his physical limitations being 5'11" with a 67" reach. Every punch had to count.

Your comparisons with Adamek, Lebedev, etc. is somewhat askewed considering they were more the boxer-counter puncher types, stylists who used frequent jabs, etc. It takes far less energy to throw a series of jabs, than it does a series of hooks. However, in due course, I will humor you and include some of the all-time great cruiserweights and light heavyweights into the equation.

[The Great John L]

Why don't you could Adamek's punch count as a light-heavy, or Lebedev's as a cruiserweight. You'll probably find Rocky lagging behind. Totally insignificant! Why not count how many punches a round Vitali pounded on poor Shannon Briggs or Adamek himself.

Good point. According to compubox Vitali threw 727 in 12 rounds against Briggs and 608 in less than 10 rounds versus Adamek. That's excellent output for lower weight classes let alone a 6-7 250 pound HW.

[polecateddy]

Why don't you could Adamek's punch count as a light-heavy, or Lebedev's as a cruiserweight. You'll probably find Rocky lagging behind. Totally insignificant! Why not count how many punches a round Vitali pounded on poor Shannon Briggs or Adamek himself.

The difference, I think, would be the fact that virtually every punch Marciano threw was a power punch hook. He didnt bother jabbing, and throwing pitter pat punches would have made no sense considering his physical limitations being 5'11" with a 67" reach. Every punch had to count.

Your comparisons with Adamek, Lebedev, etc. is somewhat askewed considering they were more the boxer-counter puncher types, stylists who used frequent jabs, etc. It takes far less energy to throw a series of jabs, than it does a series of hooks. However, in due course, I will humor you and include some of the all-time great cruiserweights and light heavyweights into the equation.

I'm sorry, but from my understanding a 13 and a half stone man, throwing nothing but hooks, with a hands low, open defence charging into today's heavyweights sounds basically to me like a man committing boxing suicide! But apparently it's the way to do it! Lol

[The Great John L]

I'm sorry, but from my understanding a 13 and a half stone man, throwing nothing but hooks, with a hands low, open defence charging into today's heavyweights sounds basically to me like a man committing boxing suicide! But apparently it's the way to do it! Lol

Marciano's deep crouching defense was actually better than it appears upon initial viewing. While he was not a defensive wizard, it was not easy to land solid shots on him, and that type of style is not often seen by very many fighters.

[polecateddy]

I'm sorry, but from my understanding a 13 and a half stone man, throwing nothing but hooks, with a hands low, open defence charging into today's heavyweights sounds basically to me like a man committing boxing suicide! But apparently it's the way to do it! Lol

Marciano's deep crouching defense was actually better than it appears upon initial viewing. While he was not a defensive wizard, it was not easy to land solid shots on him, and that type of style is not often seen by very many fighters.

So are you seriously suggesting this approach would pay dividends in today's heavyweight division. More light-heavies need to get charging in there! Lol Okay, small men have had success up there. Roy Jones at 193 pounds for example. But you can't just charge in there like people are suggesting Marciano could do ...no jabs, just hooks, an inhuman wrecking machine that is not evidenced at all by ANY of the footage I've seen. :) next I'll be hearing how he would modify his style, again with no supporting evidence he could modify his style one bit! Lol

[Oswald]

I'm sorry, but from my understanding a 13 and a half stone man, throwing nothing but hooks, with a hands low, open defence charging into today's heavyweights sounds basically to me like a man committing boxing suicide! But apparently it's the way to do it! Lol

Marciano's deep crouching defense was actually better than it appears upon initial viewing. While he was not a defensive wizard, it was not easy to land solid shots on him, and that type of style is not often seen by very many fighters.

So are you seriously suggesting this approach would pay dividends in today's heavyweight division. More light-heavies need to get charging in there! Lol Okay, small men have had success up there. Roy Jones at 193 pounds for example. But you can't just charge in there like people are suggesting Marciano could do ...no jabs, just hooks, an inhuman wrecking machine that is not evidenced at all by ANY of the footage I've seen. :) next I'll be hearing how he would modify his style, again with no supporting evidence he could modify his style one bit! Lol

Supporting evidence requested from PCT - that's a good one.

Didn't you say you were 38? No offence but you do come across as being somewhat younger than that. From your knowledge of the sport and your posting style I would have guessed you were a teenager!

[polecateddy]

What snappy and modern? I just find it very frustrating there are so many closed minds here. My knowledge of the sport is pretty decent actually, having read Boxing News and Boxing Monthly for 15-20 years. I occasionally got the American mags, but they are pretty shabby in comparison. Ive written for Saddo Boxing and once interviewed Clinton Woods before the Glen Johnson fight he won. Two novels published. Ex-UK copper. Law degree. Australian Police Prosecutor. What the hell have you done mate?

So what if I don't buy into the myth of Rocky Marciano. If a 5'10'', 185 pound man really charged into either Klitscko brother it would be embarrassing!

[Ezzard]

I agree. Marciano might land the big shot on Wlad. Might…

Size is just one factor. But to beat a bigger man you have to be better than them to a significant degree. No different to when a past it fighter fights a guy in their prime.

Marciano was a great fighter. In a p4p sense probably better than the Klitschkos. But their size is too much for him to overcome.

[Oswald]

What snappy and modern? I just find it very frustrating there are so many closed minds here. My knowledge of the sport is pretty decent actually, having read Boxing News and Boxing Monthly for 15-20 years. I occasionally got the American mags, but they are pretty shabby in comparison. Ive written for Saddo Boxing and once interviewed Clinton Woods before the Glen Johnson fight he won. Two novels published. Ex-UK copper. Law degree. Australian Police Prosecutor. What the hell have you done mate?

So what if I don't buy into the myth of Rocky Marciano. If a 5'10'', 185 pound man really charged into either Klitscko brother it would be embarrassing!

You have a law degree? Wow I take it all back, you really do know your boxing

Not sure why you keep bringing up the Klits, I don't think anyone has firmly stated that Marciano would beat them. Just that he would be a minimum of competitive in the division.

Maybe it's you that has the closed mind bud. There's an awful lot of evidence on on the other thread to back up our point of view and not much to back up yours. Are you saying that you're right and everyone else is wrong?

Anyway, this thread is about punch count so let's let it play out on the subject (*awaits your immediate response*)

[SamWise72]

Yeah, again, what people are taking issue with is your contention that pretty much any modern Top 10 cruiser would beat him, and in particular that Carl Thompson did everything better than him and Johnny Nelson would box rings round him. People produce very coherent reasons why that's nonsense, and then you pretend they're saying he would cut a swathe through the Klitschkos. The argument people have for you is that Marciano would have been one of the greatest cruisers of all time, with only a couple being likely to beat him, and would be competitive against all but the biggest top heavies, with opinion divided about which he would have a chance of beating. People who are saying anything other than that are almost none.

[Ezzard]

Yeah, again, what people are taking issue with is your contention that pretty much any modern Top 10 cruiser would beat him, and in particular that Carl Thompson did everything better than him and Johnny Nelson would box rings round him. People produce very coherent reasons why that's nonsense, and then you pretend they're saying he would cut a swathe through the Klitschkos. The argument people have for you is that Marciano would have been one of the greatest cruisers of all time, with only a couple being likely to beat him, and would be competitive against all but the biggest top heavies, with opinion divided about which he would have a chance of beating. People who are saying anything other than that are almost none.

Sam's summed it up...

[polecateddy]

If you say punch count is so significant, lets see some stats for Haye against Frag, and other cruiser battles. Just cos say Samuel Peter didn't set the world on fire, doesn't mean there werent dozens and dozens of fighters throwing as many punches as Rocky.

[SamWise72]

Obviously punch count isn't the whole story. We're talking about a man storming forward throwing power punch after power punch, with the volume increasingly markedly over the course of a 15 round fight. Obviously the punch count of Pernell Whittaker is not quite the same thing as the punch count of Julio Cesar Chavez in terms of impact. I haven't done the punch stats for the fight you mention, but I don't think David "Fights in spurts" Haye is going to be your best example.

[polecateddy]

I'm suggesting when he had to he could throw high volumes. Haye just has more dimensions. Here's a bit more Rocky looking crude and open in the late rounds of Ezzard 1;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSPJC7qSAeg

He really can't be so much of a puncher, because his punches rarely appear to have any effect, and are telegraphed, with minimal accompanying evidence of infighting skills, (or any skills really).

[Counter-puncher]

My knowledge of the sport is pretty decent actually, having read Boxing News and Boxing Monthly for 15-20 years.
Ive written for Saddo Boxing and once interviewed Clinton Woods before the Glen Johnson fight he won.

Two novels published.

Ex-UK copper. Law degree. Australian Police Prosecutor.

What the hell have you done mate?

if the comedy of the above is intentional, I salute you.

boxrec's achievers in life, step up and get dick-measuring. but only if you can claim to be an ex-UK copper. or to have interviewed Ensley Bingham, once. or maybe Crawford Ashley.otherwise you won't measure up to this colossus.

[polecateddy]

My knowledge of the sport is pretty decent actually, having read Boxing News and Boxing Monthly for 15-20 years.
Ive written for Saddo Boxing and once interviewed Clinton Woods before the Glen Johnson fight he won.

Two novels published.

Ex-UK copper. Law degree. Australian Police Prosecutor.

What the hell have you done mate?

if the comedy of the above is intentional, I salute you.

boxrec's achievers in life, step up and get dick-measuring. but only if you can claim to be an ex-UK copper. or to have interviewed Ensley Bingham, once. or maybe Crawford Ashley.otherwise you won't measure up to this colossus.

Well nobody wants to be a dumb teenager, or a dumb American.

[Oswald]

My knowledge of the sport is pretty decent actually, having read Boxing News and Boxing Monthly for 15-20 years.
Ive written for Saddo Boxing and once interviewed Clinton Woods before the Glen Johnson fight he won.

Two novels published.

Ex-UK copper. Law degree. Australian Police Prosecutor.

What the hell have you done mate?

if the comedy of the above is intentional, I salute you.

boxrec's achievers in life, step up and get dick-measuring. but only if you can claim to be an ex-UK copper. or to have interviewed Ensley Bingham, once. or maybe Crawford Ashley.otherwise you won't measure up to this colossus.

[The Great John L]

I'm sorry, but from my understanding a 13 and a half stone man, throwing nothing but hooks, with a hands low, open defence charging into today's heavyweights sounds basically to me like a man committing boxing suicide! But apparently it's the way to do it! Lol

Marciano's deep crouching defense was actually better than it appears upon initial viewing. While he was not a defensive wizard, it was not easy to land solid shots on him, and that type of style is not often seen by very many fighters.

So are you seriously suggesting this approach would pay dividends in today's heavyweight division. More light-heavies need to get charging in there! Lol Okay, small men have had success up there. Roy Jones at 193 pounds for example. But you can't just charge in there like people are suggesting Marciano could do ...no jabs, just hooks, an inhuman wrecking machine that is not evidenced at all by ANY of the footage I've seen. :) next I'll be hearing how he would modify his style, again with no supporting evidence he could modify his style one bit! Lol

Exactly how did you get a law degree without learning how to read? Where in my post did I say any of what you wrote? I tried to keep my post relatively simple but upon review I notice that I did use a few words with more than two syllables, so for that I do apologize.

[Tomasino]

What snappy and modern? I just find it very frustrating there are so many closed minds here. My knowledge of the sport is pretty decent actually, having read Boxing News and Boxing Monthly for 15-20 years. I occasionally got the American mags, but they are pretty shabby in comparison. Ive written for Saddo Boxing and once interviewed Clinton Woods before the Glen Johnson fight he won. Two novels published. Ex-UK copper. Law degree. Australian Police Prosecutor. What the hell have you done mate?

So what if I don't buy into the myth of Rocky Marciano. If a 5'10'', 185 pound man really charged into either Klitscko brother it would be embarrassing!

Your a fucken fantasist. Bawbag.

[polecateddy]

How all this over the perfectly reasonable hypothesis that Rocky would struggle with world class cruiserweights today. I mean at 185 pounds he's already a full stone smaller! And the usual cop out of excess baggage doesn't really apply to the Hucks of this world.

[zorndeslammes]

I like cruiserweight a lot, but pointing at a division like that and saying "Marciano could never compete!" when one of the division's top names is a 41 year old former welterweight is sorta laughable.