polecateddy wrote:
Are you suggesting 80-110 punches were landing a round, because he wasn't even throwing that many? Lets take Archie Moore. If he was so amazingly conditioned to take punishment, why was he beaten so easily by Patterson and Ali? He's not even regarded as that a significant scalp because at the end of the day he was an aged, blown up light heavyweight! I'm finding this all totally bizarre. You can watch Rocky's fights on You Tube. The bottom line is the only reason he could make the style of fighting he had work was because he was facing slower, less well conditioned fighters, who were ageing and had no discernible size, weight advantage over him. If he had been born later and fought in Ali's era he would have been mincemeat!
-I am suggesting a large portion of those punches were landing somewhere. Sure Marciano missed a few shots too, but for most part he was landing on the arms, shoulders, body, back, etc. which brought down the defenses of far superior boxers. If you watch that last round with Moore, and the eighth round with Cockell, etc. you will see that many of Marciano's punches did indeed land quite frequently. If I were to throw a number out there, I would reckon 75% of the punches were hitting something.
-Let's talk about Archie. Blown up light heavyweight is a bit of a stretch, considering Moore actually had experience at heavyweight off and on for a decade prior to facing Marciano. Who did he beat along the way? And this was a man who continually held the light heavyweight title for fourteen years while actively competing as a heavyweight from time to time. Let's make a compiled list of all the heavyweight the late great Archie Moore defeated in his career (who had any worth to them):
Howard King, Alejandro Lavorante, Buddy Turman, Willi Besmanoff, Charley Norkus, Bob Albright, Bert Whitehurst, Luis Ignacio, Eddie Cotton, Alain Cherville, Hans Kalbfell, James J. Parker, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Jimmy Slade, Embrel Davidson, Alberto Santiago Lovell, Jimmy Bivins, Phil Muscato, Bob Satterfield, George Fitch, Curtis Sheppard, Rusty Payne....
Essentially as early as 1945 Moore was battling some of the best heavyweight journeyman and fringe contenders (as well as third tiers) in the business. Mind you most those names like Valdes, King, Bivins, Sheppard, etc. he fought multiple times and defeated. Valdes and Baker were Marciano's #1 contenders for a time, as was Satterfield. And never forget most the light heavyweights that Moore defeated like Harold Johnson were heavyweight contenders in their own right.
As for why Archie was so easily beaten by Ali or Patterson, which you want to use as a weapon somehow against Marciano, here are a few theories and facts. By the time Archie fought Ali he was nearly fifty years old. So you can scratch that one. That is excusable. And if you ever do the fact checking on Marciano, it seems almost every man who he ever fought was seldom ever the same after facing him the first time. Roland LaStarza and Moore seemed to be the lone exceptions. Charles and Walcott were never the same, Vingo almost died, Cockell never again was the same fighter either, etc. Even some of Marciano's early opponents like Layne and Lowery were not the same following their encounters with Marciano. The man's power and ferocity was such that it certainly changed the fighters he faced forever. Lastly, you have to figure it was a different time and place then because if the Moore fight happened today, or most of Marciano's fights, they would have been stopped far earlier than they were. Most of them men were beaten after the first four or five rounds. They're bicycling tactics, holding, etc were just prolonging the inevitable knockout.
As for Moore's loss to Patterson, I think alot of it came down to the fact that styles make fights. That and the fact that Patterson had the fastest hands of any heavyweight I have ever seen on film. Patterson came from the D'Amato school of defense, where speed, timing, and accuracy was everything. Archie was competitive up until the stoppage. Patterson just happened to be at the right place at the right time. The score cards at the time of the stoppage was 18-18, 20-16, 20-17. Obviously the match had been competitive. Age may have been a factor in the fight, but I think a more concerning element is the fact that five months before Moore had defended his light heavyweight title and then had three tune up fights in between. Fact of business Archie may very well of been burnt out when he stepped into that ring with Patterson.
Marciano's style only worked against slow, old men as you claim. It's true that some of the men he faced were indeed older than him, but when you do comparisons between Marciano's opponents and some of Ali's, etc. you will find that Ali in fact fought older opponents than Marciano did on average. If that was the case, then certainly it wouldnt have worked against Matthews, Layne, LaStarza, or even Cockell. However, am sure you will say those men were just bums, etc. when the facts show that Layne and LaStarza both were favorites over Marciano when they fought him. And Marciano's style wouldnt have worked against a young up and comer like Carmine Vingo either, and Vingo was 6'4" 198 pounds and had he of beaten Marciano he would of gotten the big push to fight bigger and better names. Apparently you don't know much on the men you criticise Marciano for having fought. Let's take a look on some of them:
Jersey Joe Walcott: A living testament that age is a non-factor, having won the heavyweight crown at the age of 37 with his knockout win over Ezzard Charles. Walcott had been a threat to the division for a long time. He was so good in fact that he was outright ducked by many heavyweights in his early career. So much in fact that when Joe Louis was looking for a 'Bum of The Month' candidate the name Walcott didn't seem to register as being a threat because quite frankly either nobody had heard of him or if they did they only knew him as a part timer because he was avoided so much he had to support his family as being a garbage man. Just how good was Walcott? He iced Harold Johnson in three rounds. He defeated Jimmy Bivins and Joey Maxim several times. Hewas one of the few to kayo Curtis Sheppard in his prime. He kayoed the invincible powerhouse Tommy Gomez in three rounds. He defeated Elmer Ray a few times, even knocking him out once and many said Ray was the one man Joe Louis wanted no part of. Speaking of Louis he was robbed blind in the first match and was kicking Louis's ass in the rematch before he got caught. And how about Ezzard Charles? He fought three times, and defeated him twice, once by knockout. NOBODY ever had that much success with Charles in his prime. It seems that Walcott was alot like Lennox Lewis in the fact that Lewis seemed to get better and more dominate with age. Many forget that Walcott fought the best fight of his entire career before he got caught by that perfectly timed right hand of Marciano's. However, the effects of the punishment in that fight forever changed Walcott and it seemed all that age piled up all at once seemingly overnight. The rematch solidified that as he was blown out in one round.
Rex Layne: Prior to facing Rocky Marciano Rex Layne had a record of 34 wins, 1 loss (which was avenged), 2 draws with 21 kayos. Among the victims were the following: Turkey Thompson, Joe Kahut, Jersey Joe Walcott, Cesar Brion, and Bob Satterfield. He was considered by many to be the next heavyweight champion of the world. So much so that he was a 9-5 favorite over Marciano. A single right hand in the sixth round ended all that for Layne. The effects of Marciano's punches were such that Layne had 15 losses after facing Marciano and winning 15, with 1 draw. Sure he managed to pull a rabbit out of his hat in 1952 with a decision over Ezzard Charles, but Charles avenged the decision loss in short order. The only wins Layne could put together after Marciano were against second and third rate opposition. But before that he was something special.
Roland LaStarza: Prior to facing Marciano the second time for the title, LaStarza was quite the top quality boxer. He always felt he had been robbed in a decision to Marciano the first time they had fought, when LaStarza was 37-0-0. Before facing Marciano LaStarza was dancing rings around such men as Cesar Brion and Gino Bounvino. He wasn't blasting anyone away early for sure, but hardly anyone could lay a glove on him. Following his first encounter with The Rock he went 16-2 against such men as Ted Lowry, Dan Bucceroni, and Rex Layne. In his rematch with Marciano, LaStarza got the beating of his life, getting stopped in the 11th round. LaStarza urinated blood after the fight, and discovered that blood vessels exploded in his arms, and that pieces of bone in those arms had been broken. Following that brutal beating LaStarza was never the same, dropping 5 losses in his next 9 fights to essentially weak opposition.
Ezzard Charles: Perhaps the greatest light heavyweight to of ever lived, title or no title. Prior to his light heavyweight legend Charles had been such a feared middleweight that he was continually ducked and blocked from the title. He had been an outstanding amateur and is easily one of the pound for pound all time greats regardless of weight class. How good was he in his prime? He defeated Archie Moore three times, once by knockout. He defeated Charley Burley twice, and defeated Joey Maxim five times. He fought Jimmy Bivins six times winning five of their encounters. As a HEAVYWEIGHT, Charles defeated the likes of Elmer Ray (1-1 but dont let the record books fool you, Charles was robbed in their first encounter), Jersey Joe Walcott, Rex Layne, Gus Lesnevich, Pat Valentino, Freddie Beshore, a comebacking Joe Louis, Joe Kahut, Cesar Brion, Tommy Harrison, Coley Wallace, and Bob Satterfield. That is the opposition BEFORE facing Marciano. Let's do a little backstory on this, okay? Charles last fought for the title in 1952, losing a close (some say controversial) decision to Walcott and then wracked up a 12-2 streak against damn good opponents. Why people think Charles was being written off or old or no longer competitive is all apart of the anti-Marciano campaign. In those 14 fights before Marciano Charles beat #1 contender Satterfield, kayoed Wallace, split decisions with Rex Layne, decisioned Jimmy Bivins, dropped decisions to Valdes and Harold Johnson, beat Cesar Brion (for the billionth time) and defeated on a knockout one of Marciano's top sparring partners and heavyweight propspect Tommy Harrison (you will know him better as the man who claimed to be Bob Satterfield in later life and was the inspiration for the film Resurrecting The Champ). Then of course Charles had the two BRUTAL encounters with Marciano. And after that, he was never the same. Following Marciano, the once legendary all-time great went 10-13-0 against an odd assortment of fringe contenders, propsects and third tiers.
Harry "Kid" Matthews: Probably one of the more underated light heavyweights in history. It's a shame most people remember Matthews for his kayo loss to Marciano. Prior to all that, Matthews had a tremendous record of 81-3-5. Don't believe the myth that Matthews couldn't hang with big punchers at the heavyweight division, because he could. And don't necessarily believe he was guided or pushed into the heavyweight title picture either by facing soft touches. Because if the men Matthews faced to get to Marciano are soft touches, then we really have to evaluate just how horrible heavyweight boxing has gotten: Rex Layne, Lloyd Marshall, Freddie Beshore, Bob Murphy, Phil Muscato, Milo Savage, Al Hostak, etc. However, like Archie Moore, Matthews didn't face the Marciano curse as badly as the others. It could be because he was caught by the left hook and was knocked out quickly rather than keep absorbing shots as much as others did, but after Marciano he went 9-3-1 against the likes of Don Cockell, Freddie Beshore, and Ezzard Charles.
As for your theory that if Marciano had been born later in the Ali era he would have been made mincemeat beacuse heavyweights were bigger, let's look at the facts here, ok? George Foreman was 6'3" 215 pounds, and he was the most feared of the "big men" at the time. Muhammad Ali was essentially the same size. Outside of that, let's take a look at the others in the top ten at different times, okay? Jimmy Young (6'2" 200), Jerry Quarry (6'0" 195), Floyd Patterson (6'0" 190), Henry Cooper (185), Zora Folley (6'1" 200), Sonny Liston (6'0" 215), Chuck Wepner (6'5" 225), Joe Frazier (5'11" 200), Earnie Shavers (6'0" 210), Ken Norton (6'3" 210), George Chuvalo (6'0" 210), Oscar Bonavena (5'10" 205)..... Let's compare that with the men Marciano fought, okay? Archie Moore (5'11" 200), Jersey Joe Walcott (6'0" 195), Ezzard Charles (6'0" 190), Joe Louis (6'2" 210), Don Cockell (5'11" 210).... These height and weight advantages you talk about are so minimal at best it bares no reapeating, considering most the men in the Ali era that I listed went up and down in weight and often fought as low as 180 pounds themselves in the beginning of their careers. As short as Bonavena was, as short as Joe Frazier was how is it that they gave Ali such tough fights? You really are nit picking here considering they both were either shorter or were the exact same height as Marciano. Even Ali himself said he believed Marciano to be better than Frazier, and Joe gave him three of his hardest fights.
