Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[CrazyHorse]

His last fight before he went through all those troubles by the time he fought Zora Folley in 1967. Did Ali ever his his true peak by then? I hear some people say that we never seen the best of Ali because he could have gotten better and better. What do you guys think?

[gilgamesh]

Hard to say, I can't imagine that he would've been anything less than phenomenal during the years when he was exiled from the sport, and I also figure if not for his exile he wouldn't have struggled so badly with Bonavena in 1970.

The real question is would Joe Frazier have ever been Champion if not for his absence?

[CrazyHorse]

Hard to say, I can't imagine that he would've been anything less than phenomenal during the years when he was exiled from the sport, and I also figure if not for his exile he wouldn't have struggled so badly with Bonavena in 1970.

The real question is would Joe Frazier have ever been Champion if not for his absence?

Yeah my dad always keeps telling me he thinks Frazier would never have become champion. He wouldn't have lost to Frazier. And that Ali should have had 1 or 2 more tune ups before his first fight with Frazier because he needed to fully shake off the rust before getting in there with a beast like Frazier

[HomicideHenry]

Ali says he peaked with the Cleveland Williams fight, and that is not hard to agree with. When he fought Folley it was a bit more competitive and went longer. I think had he not been exiled he may very well of been burnt out by the time the early 1970s rolled around. Whether anyone agrees or not, I think the lay off helped his career in a way because it prolonged it. Jesus bless.

[gilgamesh]

Hard to say, I can't imagine that he would've been anything less than phenomenal during the years when he was exiled from the sport, and I also figure if not for his exile he wouldn't have struggled so badly with Bonavena in 1970.

The real question is would Joe Frazier have ever been Champion if not for his absence?

Yeah my dad always keeps telling me he thinks Frazier would never have become champion. He wouldn't have lost to Frazier. And that Ali should have had 1 or 2 more tune ups before his first fight with Frazier because he needed to fully shake off the rust before getting in there with a beast like Frazier

It's hard to say, Ali was always troubled by guys who pressured him and were physically stronger. Frazier fits that bill definitely.

I think Frazier definitely would've always been a handful for him, but considering I think Ali DID in fact beat Frazier all 3 times they fought (including the fight of the century, I had it 9 rounds to 6 for Ali)...I gotta believe without the exile he would've beaten Frazier in 1969 or 1970. Whether or not the fight under these mythical circumstances would've been great enough to merit a rematch is another debate to be had.

[RAPIDFIRE]

Hard to say, I can't imagine that he would've been anything less than phenomenal during the years when he was exiled from the sport, and I also figure if not for his exile he wouldn't have struggled so badly with Bonavena in 1970.

The real question is would Joe Frazier have ever been Champion if not for his absence?

Yeah my dad always keeps telling me he thinks Frazier would never have become champion. He wouldn't have lost to Frazier. And that Ali should have had 1 or 2 more tune ups before his first fight with Frazier because he needed to fully shake off the rust before getting in there with a beast like Frazier

It's hard to say, Ali was always troubled by guys who pressured him and were physically stronger. Frazier fits that bill definitely.

I think Frazier definitely would've always been a handful for him, but considering I think Ali DID in fact beat Frazier all 3 times they fought (including the fight of the century, I had it 9 rounds to 6 for Ali)...I gotta believe without the exile he would've beaten Frazier in 1969 or 1970. Whether or not the fight under these mythical circumstances would've been great enough to merit a rematch is another debate to be had.

The first Frazier and Ali fight could never be upstaged by the next 2 fights. 2ND fight was not even a title fight and the third was not even close the
their first fight. As for Joe Frazier not beating Ali in their first fight... Joe Frazier beat Ali by a unanimous decision... especially after he hit Ali with
what will go down as the most devastating and
greatest left hook and knock down in boxing history.
Also, the term exiled was being used to describe Ali's time away from boxing....being exiled means you are sent somewhere and never to return.

[Giancarlo]

...I think Ali DID in fact beat Frazier all 3 times they fought (including the fight of the century, I had it 9 rounds to 6 for Ali)...

Oh man, wait until Nancy sees that.

She will go mental again.

Jesus bless.

[gilgamesh]

It's hard to say, Ali was always troubled by guys who pressured him and were physically stronger. Frazier fits that bill definitely.

I think Frazier definitely would've always been a handful for him, but considering I think Ali DID in fact beat Frazier all 3 times they fought (including the fight of the century, I had it 9 rounds to 6 for Ali)...I gotta believe without the exile he would've beaten Frazier in 1969 or 1970. Whether or not the fight under these mythical circumstances would've been great enough to merit a rematch is another debate to be had.

The first Frazier and Ali fight could never be upstaged by the next 2 fights. 2ND fight was not even a title fight and the third was not even close the
their first fight. As for Joe Frazier not beating Ali in their first fight... Joe Frazier beat Ali by a unanimous decision... especially after he hit Ali with
what will go down as the most devastating and
greatest left hook and knock down in boxing history.
Also, the term exiled was being used to describe Ali's time away from boxing....being exiled means you are sent somewhere and never to return.

I generally took the term Exile in Ali's case to mean he was forced away from the sport against his own will, but I'm not too worried about arguing that point. How is anything the most devastating hook and knockdown in Boxing history when the guy stands right up? That entire argument is stupid...if it was the best left hook in the history of the sport...I would think Ali would've been down for a 10 count at the very least...but ya know, that's only because I've seen left hooks keep guys down for 10 so I would figure the best hook would do the same.

As for 9 rounds to 6 for Ali, yes that's how I saw the Fight of the Century bout between Ali and Frazier, if I watched it again would I see it differently? Possibly. I've only watched it once, but I'd happily watch it again, It was a tremendous fight. Give me a bit and I will.

The Thrilla In Manilla I remember having 7-7 even coming to the 15th round so I personally always felt it was the most closely contested of their 3 bouts.

I actually didn't even see the first bout until years later, but I always heard it talked about as if Frazier won the fight handily, and I've never heard it suggested that it was a particularly hard fight to call, but when I watched it my eyes told me Ali got the better of most of the rounds. I could very well be wrong on that...in fact tomorrow I may make it a day for me to look back on fights that I saw one way while others saw them another way day.

Jermain Taylor vs Hopkins II (Saad scored it for Hopkins, I scored it for Taylor...worth watching again if only for that)
Hopkins vs Calzaghe (I scored it for Calzaghe, some on here have scored it for Calzaghe...worth another look)
Ali vs Frazier I (Worth another look just because it's Ali-Frazier I, but I'll definitely watch it again to see if my view on it sticks)

[klompton]

Ali did not beat Frazier the first time around.

The second time is debateable and the only reason he can be given an edge is because he was allowed to hold a record amount of times. Any referee worth his salt would have cut that out within the first three rounds and then its the FOTC all over again. For all his bluster Ali clearly did not want to engage Frazier again as he did in the first fight.

Jimmy Ellis had an interesting observation after Ali returned. He stated that the press kept writing about how Ali was now (after his exile) more flat footed as fights wore on. He stated that Ali always set down more as fights wore on but nobody paid much attention to it because he had so few fights that went long and when he did they relatively unchallenging so he won as he pleased. I agree with this. His legs may not have been as fast as he once was after exile (thats debateable as well) but the idea that throughout his entire pre exile career he could dance for 15 rounds against the quality guys he would face in the 1970s I dont think is true.

Another point about Ali's exile: Its pretty overblown. He was not allowed to box professionally (in the United States) but he still boxed exhibitions and sparred on a regular basis with some of the best boxers in the world. This is one of the reason's (on top of just being damn good) that he was able to come back with such success against such a high level of competition so quickly. Its not like the guy was away from boxing for three years without ever lacing up a glove. He weighed only 2 pounds more against Quarry than he did against Folley and half a pound more against Bonavena than he did against Folley.

Finally, it gets tiresome when people hold up Ali's win over Cleveland Williams as the pinnacle of his abilities. Of course he looked great against Williams. Williams was shot, in every sense of the word. He had not fought a legitimate threat in nearly four years since he lost to Ernie Terrell and never beat anyone else worth mentioning. This is matchmaking designed to make a fighter look invincible and surprise Ali looks invincible. Ask Roy Jones, he knows all about it, he built a career on it.

Hopkins-Calzaghe W Calzaghe
Hopkins-Taylor 2 D
Frazier-Ali 1 W Frazier

[CrazyHorse]

Ali did not beat Frazier the first time around.

The second time is debateable and the only reason he can be given an edge is because he was allowed to hold a record amount of times. Any referee worth his salt would have cut that out within the first three rounds and then its the FOTC all over again. For all his bluster Ali clearly did not want to engage Frazier again as he did in the first fight.

Jimmy Ellis had an interesting observation after Ali returned. He stated that the press kept writing about how Ali was now (after his exile) more flat footed as fights wore on. He stated that Ali always set down more as fights wore on but nobody paid much attention to it because he had so few fights that went long and when he did they relatively unchallenging so he won as he pleased. I agree with this. His legs may not have been as fast as he once was after exile (thats debateable as well) but the idea that throughout his entire pre exile career he could dance for 15 rounds against the quality guys he would face in the 1970s I dont think is true.

Another point about Ali's exile: Its pretty overblown. He was not allowed to box professionally (in the United States) but he still boxed exhibitions and sparred on a regular basis with some of the best boxers in the world. This is one of the reason's (on top of just being damn good) that he was able to come back with such success against such a high level of competition so quickly. Its not like the guy was away from boxing for three years without ever lacing up a glove. He weighed only 2 pounds more against Quarry than he did against Folley and half a pound more against Bonavena than he did against Folley.

Finally, it gets tiresome when people hold up Ali's win over Cleveland Williams as the pinnacle of his abilities. Of course he looked great against Williams. Williams was shot, in every sense of the word. He had not fought a legitimate threat in nearly four years since he lost to Ernie Terrell and never beat anyone else worth mentioning. This is matchmaking designed to make a fighter look invincible and surprise Ali looks invincible. Ask Roy Jones, he knows all about it, he built a career on it.

Hopkins-Calzaghe W Calzaghe
Hopkins-Taylor 2 D
Frazier-Ali 1 W Frazier

Frazier obviously won the first fight. Ali obviously won the next 2. To be fair, Frazier beat an Ali who wasn't as good as before because of the 3 year lay off and at the time was 29.

[klompton]

yeah 29 is just ancient...

[RAPIDFIRE]

klompton and others continue to use the term "Exile" and "Forced" to describe his departure from boxing.
Although I disagree with his decision I give him credit for standing up for his beliefs....However he was
very aware of the consequences that came with his decision....He was not "Forced" into his
decision and was stripped of his title so please stop the misleading statements.
Ali always held his opponents and a lot of his fans and referees looked the other way while his opponents were
"Forced" to deal with it. That being said many feel that Frazier was his superior and the greatest (1st fight) proved
that to be true. History cannot be re-written but it makes for interesting debate.

[Ezzard]

Ali did not beat Frazier the first time around.

The second time is debateable and the only reason he can be given an edge is because he was allowed to hold a record amount of times. Any referee worth his salt would have cut that out within the first three rounds and then its the FOTC all over again. For all his bluster Ali clearly did not want to engage Frazier again as he did in the first fight.

Jimmy Ellis had an interesting observation after Ali returned. He stated that the press kept writing about how Ali was now (after his exile) more flat footed as fights wore on. He stated that Ali always set down more as fights wore on but nobody paid much attention to it because he had so few fights that went long and when he did they relatively unchallenging so he won as he pleased. I agree with this. His legs may not have been as fast as he once was after exile (thats debateable as well) but the idea that throughout his entire pre exile career he could dance for 15 rounds against the quality guys he would face in the 1970s I dont think is true.

Another point about Ali's exile: Its pretty overblown. He was not allowed to box professionally (in the United States) but he still boxed exhibitions and sparred on a regular basis with some of the best boxers in the world. This is one of the reason's (on top of just being damn good) that he was able to come back with such success against such a high level of competition so quickly. Its not like the guy was away from boxing for three years without ever lacing up a glove. He weighed only 2 pounds more against Quarry than he did against Folley and half a pound more against Bonavena than he did against Folley.

Finally, it gets tiresome when people hold up Ali's win over Cleveland Williams as the pinnacle of his abilities. Of course he looked great against Williams. Williams was shot, in every sense of the word. He had not fought a legitimate threat in nearly four years since he lost to Ernie Terrell and never beat anyone else worth mentioning. This is matchmaking designed to make a fighter look invincible and surprise Ali looks invincible. Ask Roy Jones, he knows all about it, he built a career on it.

Hopkins-Calzaghe W Calzaghe
Hopkins-Taylor 2 D
Frazier-Ali 1 W Frazier

agree

[loaded_gloves]

Frazier certainly beat Ali the first time.

Two incredible fighters.

[jezzamundo]

I think FOTC was closer than the judges had it, but still a clear win for Frazier. I had it 7 rounds apiece coming into the 15th, so with the KD I had Frazier winning by 2 points.

Their second fight I had 6 rounds to Ali, 5 to Frazier and 1 even, so a 1 point win for Ali, which I agree he was lucky to get given all of the holding.

Before the stoppage, I had Ali up 9 rounds to 5 in Manilla, but clearly both men were well past their best.

[BoxBuzz]

When Frazier knocked him down, I think it was the back of Ali's head that hit the canvas. So no...not his peak.

Yancey can you confirm?

[SteveO]

So, I'm not the only one who thought the FOTC was close. In fact if Ali had won the last round he should have won the contest IMO.
And yes, I think the boxing world was deprived of seeing Ali at his absolute peak but I agree that his career might not have lasted so long had he been allowed to continue as champion and not had an enforced 3 year lay off.
I personally think he should have been allowed to continue until all the appeal processes were completed but the 'authorities' couldn't wait to get rid of him!
He may have retired having beaten Joe Louis's record of title defences though!

[CrazyHorse]

yeah 29 is just ancient...

It's a little different when you try to get forced into a war you want nothing to be apart of. Ali spent 3 years out of the ring and for the most part he wouldn't be able to get the good sparring or training because his focus wouldn't be there 100%. Yes he did look very good after the lay off but no where near as good as when he fought Listin or Williams.


The question isn't was he in his prime when he was 29 or what not because I know he truly wasn't at his best. All you have to do is look back on the tape and see his legs were no longer as good as they were before the lay off.

What the question is during those 3 years did we actually miss the best of Ali? If he was in the ring and training like he always did.

[The Great John L]

yeah 29 is just ancient...

It's a little different when you try to get forced into a war you want nothing to be apart of. Ali spent 3 years out of the ring and for the most part he wouldn't be able to get the good sparring or training because his focus wouldn't be there 100%. Yes he did look very good after the lay off but no where near as good as when he fought Listin or Williams.


The question isn't was he in his prime when he was 29 or what not because I know he truly wasn't at his best. What the question is during those 3 years did we actually miss the best of Ali? If he was in the ring and training like he always did.

Of course, had he not gone through the 3 year ban and the lengthy battle to get his license reinstated then he might not have become the tough minded guy that stood up to Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Quarry, Bonvena, etc. It's possible that fight helped to make him mentally tougher than he could have otherwise become.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not sure why being off for 3 and a half years would make someone tougher. If anything, you would think someone would be less tough mentally being out of the ring. He was always tough. You don't beat Sonny Liston without being tough. You certainly don't stand in there almost blind for the better part of a round against Sonny Liston without being tough.


Would Ali have got even better in his late 20's if he was not banned? Possibly, who knows.

[BoxBuzz]

A bit of a wash, gaining on some ends, losing on the other.

Was there anyone roaming about during that layoff that really posed a challenge other than Frazier?

Was there a "missed fight" in there somewhere? I don't think so.

Mauro Mina?

[Ambling Alp II]

Mina ? Don't start anything buzz, soon we will be hearing how he ducked him.
He would have beaten anyone in those three years, but there were some good fighters around; he probably would have fought Ellis, Quarry, Mathis, or Bonavena sooner. Maybe a fight with Leotis Martin, or a rematch sooner with Patterson.

[The Great John L]

Not sure why being off for 3 and a half years would make someone tougher. If anything, you would think someone would be less tough mentally being out of the ring. He was always tough. You don't beat Sonny Liston without being tough. You certainly don't stand in there almost blind for the better part of a round against Sonny Liston without being tough.


Would Ali have got even better in his late 20's if he was not banned? Possibly, who knows.

You can't understand how taking on the US government as well as the US establishment and beating them at their own game might make him mentally tougher than winning a handful of fights, with possibly none of them really posing a challenge?

[Ezzard]

What he gained in the 60s he'd have lost in the 70s. That's how I see it.

Probably worked out the best for him.

He certainly had a lot to prove because of the layoff. Made him more determined.

[The Great John L]

What he gained in the 60s he'd have lost in the 70s. That's how I see it.

Probably worked out the best for him.

He certainly had a lot to prove because of the layoff. Made him more determined.

Nobody really knows if the layoff helped or hurt him. Most likely it cost him a bit physically, but it's hard to imagine him doing much better in the 70's than he did as he collected a list of wins over great and near great HWs that was second to none.