prime marciano vs '88 tyson

[man]

who is your pick? i go with tyson. i think he is too
strong and not even marciano could withstand the
early pressure and would find no target to hit.

[HomicideHenry]

As shown in my thread via punch stats, Tyson averaged around 45 punches per round. Could Marciano's 80-110 punches a round off set Tyson? Probably, considering such men as Frank Bruno and Bonecrusher Smith, etc. were able to tie Tyson up and bull him around. I think one main difference between Tyson and Marciano is that Tyson was a 'programmed' fighter who was trained to fight out of a system. If there was any deviation from that system he was easily thrown off the game plan and could be forced into clinches and end up in a mauling match. Marciano on the other hand was just pure instinct. He didnt fight with no game plan but to get close, keep himself practically nose to nose with an opponent and never stop punching. Marciano at the end of the day was a far superior opponent to anyone Tyson had fought as they were either all out of shape, old, limited or were quite frankly scared to death. Marciano as my thread shows was the greatest conditioned heavyweight to of ever lived, for his work rate is actually comparable to men as low as welterweight. Marciano was one of the hardest hitters in the division's history as well. 49-0 (43) is a rather high kayo percentage, far more impressive than Tyson's was. I think it comes down to will more so than skill. Tyson may of had speed and defense--- but he could be broken down mentally and emotionally and could be thrown off the game plan. If Marciano survives the first three or four rounds, he has it won.

[man]

you didn't vote ... :) ...

i am not so sure. i do think marciano had to give
20-30 solid pounds. plus tyson in his twenties was
very fast and not easy to hit. punch stats are one
thing, but i do think marciano would not have thrown
that many against such an opponent.

it is one of these hypotheticals where everything
seems possible. i could imagine rocky being stubborn
in forward mode. surviving the first three and then
wearing mike down. but i could as well imagine mike
make the rock look very ordinary and put him away
in three.

i see you make an honest effort in making a big case
for rocky in general, yet i think you get a little carried
away ...

[The Great John L]

I just don't see the Rock being able to avoid a prime Tyson long enough to drain his tank.

[HomicideHenry]

I don't see how facts being represented as being 'getting carried away.'

In retrospect of both men's careers Tyson showed how emotionally and mentally deep he was, which wasn't that much. Marciano in that regard was all that and a bag of chips.

Conditioning wise, Marciano has Tyson beat on all levels. That is a fact that cannot be disputed, unless your name is polecateddy. Marciano's work rate is comparable to bantamweights, lightweights and welterweights (according to COMPUBOX) who average out 70-100 punches a round.

Those two are facts. That can't be denied.

Style-wise they were almost the same, except Tyson was greater at defense. Marciano's defense and ability to get inside is incredibly underated by fans today. Overall, in this regard Tyson has an edge but not an incredibly large one.

Case in point, a look back at the Holyfield-Tyson fights shows that a man with an incredible work rate of punches can off set Tyson's defense and offense. Holyfield by my count averaged out to 55-65 punches a round, though he sometimes threw as high as 80-100 against second string competition. Of course, then again Evander was very good at using lateral movement and the jab. Which Marciano was not that good at.

It comes down to opposition, I guess, as to who beat the best opponents. Save for Larry Holmes, who had no tune ups after 21 months inactivity and was an older man and a scared shitless Michael Spinks who avoided his mandatory contenders, Tyson's opponents that he defeated in his prime (in retrospect) were average at best opponents. Marciano on the other hand, when you look at all the facts, were in or around their prime. Charles before facing Marciano was dangerous and defeated an awful lot of top men. After Marciano he was never the same. Same goes with Jersey Joe Walcott who only seemed to get better with age. Neither was Roland LaStarza ever the same after his second meeting with Marciano and prior to that he was also a very talented and exceptional boxer, a true top man in his era. Same goes with Rex Layne and Kid Matthews, who was one of the more underated light heavyweights of his time.

As for not voting, the way I see it is that fights like this are too speculative. Tyson never fought a man in any way shape or form with the same style and level as Marciano. Yet, Marciano fought men who were on the same level of greatness as Tyson (Walcott, Moore, Charles) and defeated them. True he never fought a man with a similar style and level of greatness as himself, but it leans more toward Marciano to get the job done than Tyson to have gotten the job done.

[man]

i see your point(s). i think tyson coming out was a genuinely
great boxer. his opposition was by no doubt well below top
notch, but it was in my opinion not a series of total bums either.
tyson was just extremely fast and strong IMO. he at that time
established himself very quickly into an ATG20 fighter. i do not
think his later career is a good indication of how good he was
when he came out. with stamina issues and so forth. i think he
didn't dedicate himself anymore and had no trainer he would look
up to and respect enough to make the sacrifices.

i feel rocky tends to be overrated by "the public" and in a way
underrated by "the experts", like on this forum. so in this respect
i see your effort as a good thing to correct that perception. and
while i give you the punch rate, i always saw rocky as a boxer that
was not so versatile or hand speedy and brought down his opponents
more by tenacity. would this be enough to overcome prime tyson
power, speed, body movement and 25 pounds of solid muscle?
my guess is no. but i raised the question for getting other views
and you made a good point and put facts behind it .... so: thnx!

[man]

Style-wise they were almost the same

i never saw that similarity, but i will watch some fights
and have a look.

Case in point, a look back at the Holyfield-Tyson fights shows that a man with an incredible work rate of punches can off set Tyson's defense and offense. Holyfield by my count averaged out to 55-65 punches a round, though he sometimes threw as high as 80-100 against second string competition.

i think a prime evander gives every boxer in history a
long night. but the tyson of then was not the same as
almost ten years earlier IMO. what happened was that
his assaults did not yield victory early on and then
frustration kicked in and with this one of the key things
in mike's arsenal went down the gutter: head movement.

i don't say mike '88 would have easy game with evander,
but the fight would have been way more competitive. i
just do not see a prime tyson being so frustrated that quickly
and from then on rely on single punch hopes. i think one
can argue that a prime holyfield met a (well) post prime
tyson.

btw i would be interested in mike's punches per round from
86 to 89. do you have these?

[man]

sorry, just read in the other thread that you did post tyson's
punch rate.

[Controversial]

Personally I think this is a bad matchup for Marciano. Marciano never fought anyone as powerful or fast as Tyson, I just can't see him slugging it out and winning. Tyson by early stoppage.

[Oswald]

Either Tyson early or Marciano late. I picked Marciano but I don't have a problem with picking Tyson as it's a close one.

[elmersalsa]

Any heavyweight champion before the great Sonny Liston will get destroyed quick by the great Mike Tyson. I don't know if the great Rocky Marciano has the power to hurt Iron Mike. Marciano would be too small.

[yancey]

Tyson early and emphatically.

[gilgamesh]

Tyson KO 2 or 3.

[loaded_gloves]

Isn't it about who's 'better' rather than who's 'bigger'?

If it's simply who's 'bigger' then Tyson loses to Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher, Tyrell Biggs, Mitch Green, and Jose Ribalta.

I'm not saying I side with Rocky but christ, when the reasoning is 'Tyson too big', well, you're picking a man who made massive size advantages redundant on numerous occasions.

[The Great John L]

Isn't it about who's 'better' rather than who's 'bigger'?

If it's simply who's 'bigger' then Tyson loses to Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher, Tyrell Biggs, Mitch Green, and Jose Ribalta.

I'm not saying I side with Rocky but christ, when the reasoning is 'Tyson too big', well, you're picking a man who made massive size advantages redundant on numerous occasions.

Tyson hits harder, has faster hands and throws much better combinations so is very likely to catch Rocky early before he can start to take Tysons heart away.

Is that better?

[Crease]

Marciano for me... He could take a dozen rounds of punishment and still have the confidence and the explosive power to knock out his opponent.

I'm not sure the same could be said of Tyson.

[SamWise72]

Tyson is certainly going to have the best of the early going, and he hits as hard as anyone Rocky fought, and throws more power combinations than any of them. Rocky had a great chin, but he went down against guys with lesser digs, plus the Tyson of the time was a great finisher. If Rocky sees the 5th round, Tyson is definitely going to lose, but I wouldn't be confident that he would. It's pick 'em for me, neither man faced anyone comparable.

[Ezzard]

Rocky has the chin and the durability. Wasn’t Evander a roided up Cruiserweight? He got tagged and hurt by lesser punchers. He took Tyson’s early bombs, walked him backwards and beat him up.

Rocky wasn’t as quick or as slick…but he hit harder than Holy…

I don’t think Rocky could come in and win at 185. He’d have to be on whatever Holyfield was on to get bigger…if he can do that he has a real chance.

[stevieb_8006]

Rocky bullies the bully

[man]

Rocky has the chin and the durability. Wasn’t Evander a roided up Cruiserweight?

'88 tyson was different IMO. don't know
if he ever could have beaten evander, but
when they met he was well postprime ...

[Controversial]

I agree Tyson was past his best when he fought Holyfield, aged 30 he had been knocked out by Douglas, had spent 3 years in prison and only boxed 8 rounds before facing Holyfield. Even with a 7lb weight advantage Tyson was unable to impose his power on Holyfield, not sure that would have been the case if they fought 7 years earlier. Saying that I think Holyfield would have always had the mental edge over Tyson and the tools to beat him even in Tyson's prime years.

[Ezzard]

Tyson was not at his best. But Evander was further from his best.

[man]

Tyson was not at his best. But Evander was further from his best.

all due respect: no, not at heavy.

[Ezzard]

I can’t agree. A year earlier Holy was getting knocked out by Bowe…who was so worn out that in his next 2 fights got mangled by Golota.

Tyson, quite literally, got two bites at Holy and lost them both.

[SenorPipino]

The Rock would take whatever heart Tyson had and have him qutting on his stool by the 8th round.
Remember, with modern training techniques and diet, guys like Marciano wouldn't be in the 180's if they fought today. He'd be over 210 lbs, similar to Tyson's smaller heavyweight stature, so Iron Mike would have no size advantage.