Rocky Marciano versus Modern Heavyweights via Punch Count

[polecateddy]

I can't believe after all these weeks you're all still wasting your lives trying to educate this screaming, gibbering retard 'polecateddy'. The man is a confirmed complete and utter moron without a clue about anything he's talking about. He vomits up one ridiculous, tenuous argument, it's immediately and logically refuted, so he forgets that one and just jumps onto the next equally stupid angle.

He actually thinks Rocky Marciano, a chunky 220-230lb strong man between fights, was walking around at 185! And is actually a natural light-heavyweight!

He thinks a 50 year old Archie Moore's performance against Cassius Clay is somehow relevant to anything!

Seriously, stop wasting your time on this sad old fool. You are the clever kids class. You cannot help the remedial who has been thrown in among you. Scream at him all you like, the man has severe learning difficulties, he can never catch up. Leave him be, please, because he is dragging you all down to his level.

For someone who has 'window licker' listed as the chosen profession on his passport, I'm impressed you can even spell the word remedial. Good job your mommy is an ace speller!

Usual retarded misunderstanding of what I've said I see too! I simply said if his fighting weight was indeed 185 pounds, he is closer to the light-heavy limit of 175 pounds than the cruiser limit of 200 pounds. In fact if transported here today to fight at that weight then he finds himself in something of a no-mans-land!

Weight limits are the maximum that a fighter can weigh to be within that weight class; there is no minimum weight. A 185 pound fighter is a CW and is not in "no-mans-land", whatever that means. This is pretty basic stuff to not understand.

This whole argument is based on him turning up in the modern day at his peak 5'10'' and 185 pounds, and then somehow beating all the cruisers who have 15 pounds on him, and a heap of international class heavies. With all that punch stat nonsense, I was also suggesting he should really be compared to the output of light-heavies 10 pounds lighter, rather than even small heavies like Holyfield who were carrying nearly 30 pounds more body mass. Makes sense to me!

[Ezzard]

When Marciano steps out of the time machine he immediately gets infected with a strain of flu that wasn’t around back in his day. His health deteriorates and he never makes it through training camp. He dies in hospital a few weeks after arriving in 2013.

Someone says why wasn’t he just given anti-biotics. A guy in the crowd shouts, “No, it had to be exactly as he was then. That's the whole point.”

We never suspected that he brought an old strain of flu with him. One we have no immunity to. Half the world’s population die a few weeks later. Someone else did suggest going back in time for the antidote but somehow that seemed to against the spirit of the debate.

The billions who died would not have wanted it any other way.

[Counter-puncher]

When Marciano steps out of the time machine he immediately gets infected with a strain of flu that wasn’t around back in his day. His health deteriorates and he never makes it through training camp. He dies in hospital a few weeks after arriving in 2013.

Someone says why wasn’t he just given anti-biotics. A guy in the crowd shouts, “No, it had to be exactly as he was then. That's the whole point.”

We never suspected that he brought an old strain of flu with him. One we have no immunity to. Half the world’s population die a few weeks later. Someone else did suggest going back in time for the antidote but somehow that seemed to against the spirit of the debate.

The billions who died would not have wanted it any other way.

[Controversial]

When Marciano steps out of the time machine he immediately gets infected with a strain of flu that wasn’t around back in his day. His health deteriorates and he never makes it through training camp. He dies in hospital a few weeks after arriving in 2013.

Someone says why wasn’t he just given anti-biotics. A guy in the crowd shouts, “No, it had to be exactly as he was then. That's the whole point.”

We never suspected that he brought an old strain of flu with him. One we have no immunity to. Half the world’s population die a few weeks later. Someone else did suggest going back in time for the antidote but somehow that seemed to against the spirit of the debate.

The billions who died would not have wanted it any other way.

Pahaha. Either that or the flux capacitor in the DeLorean breaks and he disappears never to be seen again.

[Oswald]

For someone who has 'window licker' listed as the chosen profession on his passport, I'm impressed you can even spell the word remedial. Good job your mommy is an ace speller!

Usual retarded misunderstanding of what I've said I see too! I simply said if his fighting weight was indeed 185 pounds, he is closer to the light-heavy limit of 175 pounds than the cruiser limit of 200 pounds. In fact if transported here today to fight at that weight then he finds himself in something of a no-mans-land!

Weight limits are the maximum that a fighter can weigh to be within that weight class; there is no minimum weight. A 185 pound fighter is a CW and is not in "no-mans-land", whatever that means. This is pretty basic stuff to not understand.[/quote]

This whole argument is based on him turning up in the modern day at his peak 5'10'' and 185 pounds, and then somehow beating all the cruisers who have 15 pounds on him, and a heap of international class heavies. With all that punch stat nonsense, I was also suggesting he should really be compared to the output of light-heavies 10 pounds lighter, rather than even small heavies like Holyfield who were carrying nearly 30 pounds more body mass. Makes sense to me![/quote][/quote]

So you're back to your "bigger always wins" argument....

[HomicideHenry]

I am still not so sure what this man's argument really is about. First he said modern training techniques were so advanced that Marciano wouldn't be able to compete---- yet I have shown via punch stats of Marciano versus modern day fighters (Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko, etc) that Marciano's fitness level was so insanely above there's that it throws in the face of his first claim. Second he goes on that Marciano was simply too small and even made the allegation that fighters in the Ali era were just too big. I then showed stats of some of the more famed and successful heavyweights of the time and showed that size differentials were so marginal at best that it defeats the purpose of his claim. Third, he now states that Marciano was so small that we must compare his punch stats to those in the light heavyweight division rather than the Cruiserweight division to somehow make it fair---- even though my stats showed Evander Holyfield as a cruiserweight (the greatest of all time in that weight) didn't come close either.

HOWEVER.... I will indeed humor him, and show COMPUBOX numbers of some recent light heavyweight fights---- but bare in mind there is a 1-3% margin of error in the system, and I have shown a few times on my own punch count that the margin of error is even higher than that at times. The following is COMPUBOX numbers of TOMASZ ADAMEK, a man who was a champion at LHW and CW and is a top ten HW contender. I think for shits and giggles I will show a sampling of each weight class he was in to see what the drop in numbers were---- because in the CW & HW totals for Holyfield the drop wasn't that much at all.

CUNNINGHAM VERSUS ADAMEK (HW)

http://compuboxonline.com/compubox-stat ... unningham/

Adamek threw in total 513 punches, landing 169, 246 were jabs and 267 were power punches

CUNNINGHAM VERSUS ADAMEK (CW)

http://www.BS.com/forums/view. ... asz-adamek

Adamek threw in total 480 punches, 186 of them landing, 152 were jabs & 328 were power punches

NOTE: Take a look at Steve Cunningham's numbers as well, in his CW fight with Adamek he threw 690 punches but landed only 205. Compare both these men's stats at HW and CW, while it is amazing stats don't forget that Marciano threw 691 punches in nine incomplete rounds against Archie Moore. These are great athletes, but not the spartan athletes that Marciano is.

Now, we are going to do some numbers at the light heavyweight division. According to COMPUBOX officials light heavyweights average 53.8 punches a round. First Adamek, and then we will bring in such men as Bernard Hopkins, Tavoris Cloud, Jean Pascal, and Chad Dawson. I think polecateddy will find at the end of this even established champions, contenders, and all time greats competing at 175 pounds will still have nothing on Marciano's overall fitness.

TOMASZ ADAMEK VERSUS CHAD DAWSON

Dawson outlanded Adamek 241 to 114; Dawson landed 44% of his punches, which were 46 per round. (Keep that average well in mind). Adamek lost his championship in this fight and soon moved to the CW division where he felt his speed would make much bigger men look foolish and would soon capture that division's title. That being in mind, I don't think it is necessary to put down Adamek's numbers because almost incredibly it seems the more weight he gains the more punches he actually throws in total, which goes in the face of common logic.

HOPKINS VERSUS CLOUD:

Bernard Hopkins may very well be the most comparable fighter to the great Archie Moore, at least in terms of longevity and success over time, so we include him on this punch stat quest. Cloud, an undefeated champion at the time, threw in total 650 punches landing 139. Hopkins threw altogether 417 punches and landed 169 of them. Neither of these men, who are LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHTS, don't come close to Marciano's averages.

HOPKINS VERSUS PASCAL:

Again we have Hopkins, and we have Pascal who in recent months defeated Chad Dawson. In his fight with Hopkins he threw altogether 350 punches, landing 86. Hopkins threw 502 and landed 153. This is again, a testament to Marciano's overall fitness (as well as Hopkins). Marciano averaged out to 80-110 punches per round in certain fights---- according to COMPUBOX such numbers can only be found in divisions as low as middleweight---- bare in mind in the Martinez-Murray fight Sergio averaged 77.3 punches per round. This is incredible, considering Marciano's averages also find their way into the welterweight division stats: compare Floyd Mayweather in his fight with Robert Guerrero where Mayweather the p4p best boxer on the planet averaged 74.5 punches per round. The fact that Marciano could throw as high as 116 (in his fight with Cockell) a round, means that Marciano's averages show a man with the work rate of a professional BANTAMWEIGHT.

[polecateddy]

Yeah but all fighters on the inside get higher stats. James Toney is not the greatest athlete ever, but he landed something like 410 punches against Prince Charles Williams. David Tua often gets slated for being overweight, yet jointly holds the heavy record for punches thrown for his fight with Ike Ibeabuchi. I do think size matters to an large degree. Certainly even a genius like Roy Jones was an underdog against Ruiz. Perhaps it's only with the weakening of the heavyweight division that has allowed a number of smaller fighters in lately, such as Adamek and Haye. They have to be very smart in their approach though, which sorry with the best will in the world wasn't Rocky's approach at all!

[dempseyfire]

On sanity. Something which this thread is sorely missing. I recall Angelo Dundee being quoted as saying he would no longer consider training any fighters under 220 pounds at heavyweight. .

Yeah Dundee really knew how to pick him. Attila Levin had a great career . . . . .

[polecateddy]

On sanity. Something which this thread is sorely missing. I recall Angelo Dundee being quoted as saying he would no longer consider training any fighters under 220 pounds at heavyweight. .

Yeah Dundee really knew how to pick him. Attila Levin had a great career . . . . .

So now Angelo Dundee is a idiot too? Lol

[Oswald]

PCT - who wins in a fight between Joe Frazier and Tomasz Adamek?

[polecateddy]

PCT - who wins in a fight between Joe Frazier and Tomasz Adamek?

Pretty even probably. Fraiser's left hook could make a significant difference if it did become a war.

[man]

PCT - who wins in a fight between Joe Frazier and Tomasz Adamek?

Pretty even probably. Fraiser's left hook could make a significant difference if it did become a war.

i'm more critical about frazier than most here,
but that seems like a real stretch.

on the board there was for quite some time the
tendency to overrate the past and now it is the
opposite. with the notable exception of henry's
attempt to reposition marciano.

[man]

On sanity. Something which this thread is sorely missing. I recall Angelo Dundee being quoted as saying he would no longer consider training any fighters under 220 pounds at heavyweight. .

Yeah Dundee really knew how to pick him. Attila Levin had a great career . . . . .

i think it's wiser to judge a trainer by his best guys ...

[polecateddy]

PCT - who wins in a fight between Joe Frazier and Tomasz Adamek?

Pretty even probably. Fraiser's left hook could make a significant difference if it did become a war.

i'm more critical about frazier than most here,
but that seems like a real stretch.

on the board there was for quite some time the
tendency to overrate the past and now it is the
opposite. with the notable exception of henry's
attempt to reposition marciano.

It's not quite clear what you mean. Are you saying Fraiser beats Adamek easily? Or the opposite?

[Oswald]

I think he's saying it's a stretch to imagine that Adamek could hang with Frazier.

[man]

It's not quite clear what you mean. Are you saying Fraiser beats Adamek easily? Or the opposite?

sorry for not being clear. i do not think that frazier
(in his prime) would have much difficulty with blowing
away adamek. i doubt this one could go the distance
and i'm definitely not a frazier fan. i mean we are talking
about a great heavy weight champion and a light heavy
who moved cruiser and then heavy. i for one have not
heard of anyone putting adamek into a top twenty list of
all time at light heavy, while i think frazier makes each
such list at heavy. so, no, i do not think this could make
a really competitive matchup.

[loaded_gloves]

Smokin' Joe would massacre Adamek.

[dempseyfire]

On sanity. Something which this thread is sorely missing. I recall Angelo Dundee being quoted as saying he would no longer consider training any fighters under 220 pounds at heavyweight. .

Yeah Dundee really knew how to pick him. Attila Levin had a great career . . . . .

i think it's wiser to judge a trainer by his best guys ...

Dundee was a good cutman with no boxing experience who got lucky riding Ali's wave from the beginning. He certainly didn't mold Ali's style and if you listen to his between round advice Ali usually just did the opposite.

As for Adamek-Frazier being at all competitive I thought polecat had already reached his pinnacle of absurdity but no . . .

[SamWise72]

PCT - who wins in a fight between Joe Frazier and Tomasz Adamek?

Pretty even probably. Fraiser's left hook could make a significant difference if it did become a war.

You are hilarious. I'm reading for the comedy value now.

[HomicideHenry]

Yeah but all fighters on the inside get higher stats. James Toney is not the greatest athlete ever, but he landed something like 410 punches against Prince Charles Williams. David Tua often gets slated for being overweight, yet jointly holds the heavy record for punches thrown for his fight with Ike Ibeabuchi. I do think size matters to an large degree. Certainly even a genius like Roy Jones was an underdog against Ruiz. Perhaps it's only with the weakening of the heavyweight division that has allowed a number of smaller fighters in lately, such as Adamek and Haye. They have to be very smart in their approach though, which sorry with the best will in the world wasn't Rocky's approach at all!

#1- So anyone with a swarming style in theory is going to throw more punches than a stylist?

#2- This is about stats, punch stats, and I have clearly demonstrated that Marciano at 5'11" 187 pounds threw more punches than even Vladimir Klitschko and other great heavyweights. As matter of fact Marciano's averages are almost equal to that of a lightweight or bantamweight. This is a thread about fitness rather than size.

#3- Your third remark goes in the face of your first remark that people on the inside score more punches. By this logic Marciano was superior than his opponents because of a swarming style, yet he was too dumb and awkward to be able to fight 'smart' in his approach to fights. I disagree. Marciano, while not being the most saavy tactician or boxer by any means, was using science when he fought from a crouch by getting low, and would bob and weave into range. He was highly underated on getting in the inside.

[polecateddy]

Yeah but all fighters on the inside get higher stats. James Toney is not the greatest athlete ever, but he landed something like 410 punches against Prince Charles Williams. David Tua often gets slated for being overweight, yet jointly holds the heavy record for punches thrown for his fight with Ike Ibeabuchi. I do think size matters to an large degree. Certainly even a genius like Roy Jones was an underdog against Ruiz. Perhaps it's only with the weakening of the heavyweight division that has allowed a number of smaller fighters in lately, such as Adamek and Haye. They have to be very smart in their approach though, which sorry with the best will in the world wasn't Rocky's approach at all!

#1- So anyone with a swarming style in theory is going to throw more punches than a stylist?

#2- This is about stats, punch stats, and I have clearly demonstrated that Marciano at 5'11" 187 pounds threw more punches than even Vladimir Klitschko and other great heavyweights. As matter of fact Marciano's averages are almost equal to that of a lightweight or bantamweight. This is a thread about fitness rather than size.

#3- Your third remark goes in the face of your first remark that people on the inside score more punches. By this logic Marciano was superior than his opponents because of a swarming style, yet he was too dumb and awkward to be able to fight 'smart' in his approach to fights. I disagree. Marciano, while not being the most saavy tactician or boxer by any means, was using science when he fought from a crouch by getting low, and would bob and weave into range. He was highly underated on getting in the inside.

1. Check punch records and see swarmers dominating the top ten.

2. Rocky's punch stats are poorer than Tua v Ibeau, so the gross generalisation about lightweights is incorrect.

3. If you watch his last fight with Moore is it very clear that Rocky lacks skill and is hittable. How he could get anywhere near a Bowe, Lewis or Klitchko to land anything in the first place beggers belief.

[HomicideHenry]

1. Check punch records and see swarmers dominating the top ten.

2. Rocky's punch stats are poorer than Tua v Ibeau, so the gross generalisation about lightweights is incorrect.

3. If you watch his last fight with Moore is it very clear that Rocky lacks skill and is hittable. How he could get anywhere near a Bowe, Lewis or Klitchko to land anything in the first place beggers belief.

1. Top ten of what? All-time? P4P? Or the present top ten? And top ten of what division?

2. You are really nit picking. That is ONE fight out of millions of heavyweight clashes over nearly the passed 130 years. Problem with your choice is that it was an anamoly, it wasn't the standard in Tua or Ibeabuchi's career. Tua threw in general the same amount of punches other heavyweights of his time did, which averages out to 45 punches a round. Same with Ibeabuchi. Don't make me go out and prove that, because doing punch counts on fights that didnt have compubox numbers is very damn tiring and I seem to be the only one willing to do it.

3. Lacks skills? Very hittable? If Marciano got hit with half as many punches as you think he did in general he wouldn't have made it that far as a professional. And tbh, Moore was all but wearing down and going out after the third round. Such was Marciano's power and skills to get on the inside. Moore had to use every bit of skill and experience to shield away most of Marciano's punches on his arms and gloves and shoulders and stay up for as long as he did. You know what's ironic about this, is that this thread was started because you argued Marciano wasn't conditioned enough to last with fighters of today. FOR THE MOORE FIGHT, Marciano sparred 116 rounds. And you know what the funny part of that is? That was THE LEAST AMOUNT OF SPARRING he ever done while as a contender or champion. And even then he still dominated Moore, who last I checked was one of the p4p greatest fighters of all time. How great was Marciano? Moore was pegged an 18-5 underdog. Not because he was older than Rocky, or for any other reason other than the fact Marciano was that dangerous. How Moore managed to make it into the 9th round is anyone's guess, but it surely isnt because Marciano was some neanderthal man who was stupid, with no skills, and was very hittable. Quite the opposite. Marciano was very smart, very well versed in getting on the inside of opponents and breaking down the guard, and was the hardest punching man of his era along with the fact that he may very well of been the greatest conditioned athlete of all time.

[polecateddy]

Compu stats. Toney down at 6 I think. And really, now Rocky is now the best athlete of all-time! Lol Not at all flattered by his ageing opponents then.

[HomicideHenry]

Compu stats. Toney down at 6 I think. And really, now Rocky is now the best athlete of all-time! Lol Not at all flattered by his ageing opponents then.

Again you are picking and chosing and putting words into my mouth. I never said Marciano was the greatest or best athlete of all time---- I said he was THE MOST CONDITIONED ATHLETE OF ALL TIME.

[Ambling Alp II]

The question of how would smaller great heavyweights do against bigger heavyweights of today is usually not thought through very well. Many people assume that there were no big heavyweights a long time ago. There have been been really big heavyweights for the last 100 years.Many of them fans of today have never heard of. Why? Mostly because the smaller heavyweights beat them and they never became the champion.

There is a reason why you don't see 320 pound quarterbacks in the NFL. Or runningbacks that are 6'6. At a certain point size stops being an advantage. It ultimately becomes a disadvantage.