Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[BoxBuzz]

Ok this drove me nuts, so I went and looked up the record. I don't see anything that tells me this would have been a watershed, and dangerous moment in the life of Ali. So.....I'm assuming you will "fill in the blanks" here. For those of us who are scratching our heads, and attempting to figure out if this is a throwaway straight line, or something you've done some studying on.

I even tried to google and bing the internet for anything revealing on this matter. Can't say I found the promised land during my search.

[BoxBuzz]

Here was his record during that year. Your saying Ali's name would have been a W on his record had they the notion to mix it up?

South American heavyweight title

1968-12-14 Santiago Alberto Lovell 18-1-0

Estadio Luna Park, Buenos Aires, Distrito Federal, Argentina W PTS 12 12

vacant Argentina (FAB) heavyweight title
Title vacated by Oscar Natalio Bonavena

1968-11-08 193 Roy Wallace 204 5-7-1

Civic Auditorium, San Jose, California, USA W UD 10 10

referee: Tony Bosnich 6-2 | judge: Jack Silva 6-2 | judge: Rudy Ortega 9-0

1968-09-16 198 Roger Rischer 197 28-11-2

Civic Auditorium, San Francisco, California, USA L SD 10 10

referee: Jack Downey 4-5 | judge: Vern Bybee 3-4 | judge: Johnny Lotsey 5-4

1968-07-24 198¾ Alvin Lewis 215 18-0-0

Olympia Stadium, Detroit, Michigan, USA L KO 2 10

1968-04-05 197¼ Bob Stallings 198½ 12-14-0

Frolundaborg, Gothenburg, Sweden W PTS 10 10

1968-03-22 Francisco San Jose 7-5-2

Bologna, Emilia Romagna, Italy W KO 5 10

Boxing News March 29, 1968

[Giancarlo]

It was a good thing that Muhammad Ali didn't fight Eduardo Corletti in early 1968.

Corletti eh?

The bloke who was counted out against Blue Lewis in 1968?

[hhaehre]

Would not be that surprised if someone thinks that; I once heard that Ali was in his prime when he lost to Spinks, so not much surprises me anymore.

Over the years, on this forum people have stated I have heard that Ali should not have got decisions vs Doug Jones, Ken Norton twice, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers,Alfredo Evangelista, Leon Spinks, and Joe Frazier.
Also, he would have lost to Cooper if he had not got way too much time to recover, both of the Liston fights were fixed, Foreman was not really counted out, Lyle should not have been stopped,Frazier's trainer should have allowed his blind fighter to continue because he would have knocked out Ali in the last round.

However, say that Ali was not as his best following a three and half year layoff, and that is just crazy talk. Not mention, that apparently going 1-2 is better than 2-1 as well, because you can just say the fight your guy won is more important.

Yet somehow, some way, it is the pro "Ali myth machine" that must be stopped.

I agree that plenty of what has been said about Ali is pure bs. and that the pendulum has gone too far the other way on this forum. He did clearly beat Jones, he would have beaten any version of Liston, He did not get more than a few seconds extra rest vs. Cooper, the Lyle TKO was fine, he edged Shavers and while Foreman did receive a fast count, Ali would have won regardless just as he would have won a fair decision in Manila if Frazier had been allowed to come out for the last round. I have never heard anyone say that Evangelista beat him or that he should have lost Spinks II

However, he should not have gotten the decision vs. Young nor should he have been given the nod in Norton III and he got away with illegal tactics in the second Frazier fight. Illegal tactics that arguably won him the fight. Finally, he lost the biggest fight of his career. He lost it but annoyingly to some, he performed great in his loss and that really makes it hard to drum up an excuse for it. Hard, but as we have seen on this board, far from impossible.

[yancey]

Would not be that surprised if someone thinks that; I once heard that Ali was in his prime when he lost to Spinks, so not much surprises me anymore.

Over the years, on this forum people have stated I have heard that Ali should not have got decisions vs Doug Jones, Ken Norton twice, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers,Alfredo Evangelista, Leon Spinks, and Joe Frazier.
Also, he would have lost to Cooper if he had not got way too much time to recover, both of the Liston fights were fixed, Foreman was not really counted out, Lyle should not have been stopped,Frazier's trainer should have allowed his blind fighter to continue because he would have knocked out Ali in the last round.

However, say that Ali was not as his best following a three and half year layoff, and that is just crazy talk. Not mention, that apparently going 1-2 is better than 2-1 as well, because you can just say the fight your guy won is more important.

Yet somehow, some way, it is the pro "Ali myth machine" that must be stopped.

I agree that plenty of what has been said about Ali is pure bs. and that the pendulum has gone too far the other way on this forum. He did clearly beat Jones, he would have beaten any version of Liston, He did not get more than a few seconds extra rest vs. Cooper, the Lyle TKO was fine, he edged Shavers and while Foreman did receive a fast count, Ali would have won regardless just as he would have won a fair decision in Manila if Frazier had been allowed to come out for the last round. I have never heard anyone say that Evangelista beat him or that he should have lost Spinks II

However, he should not have gotten the decision vs. Young nor should he have been given the nod in Norton III and he got away with illegal tactics in the second Frazier fight. Illegal tactics that arguably won him the fight. Finally, he lost the biggest fight of his career. He lost it but annoyingly to some, he performed great in his loss and that really makes it hard to drum up an excuse for it. Hard, but as we have seen on this board, far from impossible.

I can readily agree with nearly all of this, except I agree with the late, great Gil Clancy that Smoke should have been sent out for the 15th in Manila.

He wasn't helpless and Ali was exhausted and one big punch might have changed things. One never knows. I felt Joe deserved a look-see to see what might happen.

[Giancarlo]

It was a good thing that Muhammad Ali didn't fight Eduardo Corletti in early 1968.

Corletti eh?

The bloke who was counted out against Blue Lewis in 1968?

Controversial Bout, as Alvin 'Blue' Lewis hit 'El Gato' with a winging left-hook to the left ear
while Eduardo was on his knee's at the end of Round 1.

Eduardo suffered a bad-cut on his ear. He was 'not' knocked out, he just didn't come out
for Round 2, while his Manager - Augie De Mille was arguing with the Boxing Commissioner
and Referee.

Had this bout been held anywhere else but Detroit, 'Blue' Lewis would have been DQ'd for
throwing and landing a blatant illegal punch.

You have a newspaper report for that fight?

[Giancarlo]

Here is one article.

Cheers.

Good ringside report.

Er, did you notice there was no mention of any punches delivered while Corletti was down???

[SenorPipino]

Would not be that surprised if someone thinks that; I once heard that Ali was in his prime when he lost to Spinks, so not much surprises me anymore.

Over the years, on this forum people have stated I have heard that Ali should not have got decisions vs Doug Jones, Ken Norton twice, Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers,Alfredo Evangelista, Leon Spinks, and Joe Frazier.
Also, he would have lost to Cooper if he had not got way too much time to recover, both of the Liston fights were fixed, Foreman was not really counted out, Lyle should not have been stopped,Frazier's trainer should have allowed his blind fighter to continue because he would have knocked out Ali in the last round.

However, say that Ali was not as his best following a three and half year layoff, and that is just crazy talk. Not mention, that apparently going 1-2 is better than 2-1 as well, because you can just say the fight your guy won is more important.

Yet somehow, some way, it is the pro "Ali myth machine" that must be stopped.

I agree that plenty of what has been said about Ali is pure bs. and that the pendulum has gone too far the other way on this forum. He did clearly beat Jones, he would have beaten any version of Liston, He did not get more than a few seconds extra rest vs. Cooper, the Lyle TKO was fine, he edged Shavers and while Foreman did receive a fast count, Ali would have won regardless just as he would have won a fair decision in Manila if Frazier had been allowed to come out for the last round. I have never heard anyone say that Evangelista beat him or that he should have lost Spinks II

However, he should not have gotten the decision vs. Young nor should he have been given the nod in Norton III and he got away with illegal tactics in the second Frazier fight. Illegal tactics that arguably won him the fight. Finally, he lost the biggest fight of his career. He lost it but annoyingly to some, he performed great in his loss and that really makes it hard to drum up an excuse for it. Hard, but as we have seen on this board, far from impossible.

I can readily agree with nearly all of this, except I agree with the late, great Gil Clancy that Smoke should have been sent out for the 15th in Manila.

He wasn't helpless and Ali was exhausted and one big punch might have changed things. One never knows. I felt Joe deserved a look-see to see what might happen.

Who could disagree with sending a nearly blind Frazier out for a 15th round, especially after absorbing only a minor pummeling in rounds 12-14??
I mean, what the heck did Eddie Futch know about a fighter's safety? What was he, some HOF trainer?

[gilgamesh]

Of course sparring is not exactly the same as actual rounds in a fight, but it is conducive to maintaining and/or sharpening one's skills leading up to an actual fight.

Have you maybe noticed that sparring is an essential element of training camps leading up to fights?

Ali spent considerable time in the gym during that big, bad layoff. Do you think he could stay away from boxing?

He looked good against Quarry in '70. Bonavena, an awkward but strong guy, was very difficult for anyone to look good against. Had Ali fought '70 Oscar in '67 it still would have been an awkward fight.

Ali was ready on 3/8/71. I'm not fooled by the myth making machine.

And of course I was being sarcastic about the layoff before the Holmes fight.

And Manila was a great fight, but if you really think it was fought at the same level as the FOTC, then you, sir, are a dope.





p.s. Quadruple Sheesh.

The Thrilla in Manilla may not have been fought at quite the same level of skill, but it certainly was the most grueling and exhausting of the 3 bouts for both men in my view both had to show as much heart in that bout as they ever did in any other fight they had.

Whether it was at as "high a level" as the FOTC, really doesn't matter. It was pretty damn elite conditioning and courage for those guys to put on the fight and performances they did that night. So I'd never say an unkind word about that tremendous fight personally.

[SenorPipino]

Of course sparring is not exactly the same as actual rounds in a fight, but it is conducive to maintaining and/or sharpening one's skills leading up to an actual fight.

Have you maybe noticed that sparring is an essential element of training camps leading up to fights?

Ali spent considerable time in the gym during that big, bad layoff. Do you think he could stay away from boxing?

He looked good against Quarry in '70. Bonavena, an awkward but strong guy, was very difficult for anyone to look good against. Had Ali fought '70 Oscar in '67 it still would have been an awkward fight.

Ali was ready on 3/8/71. I'm not fooled by the myth making machine.

And of course I was being sarcastic about the layoff before the Holmes fight.

And Manila was a great fight, but if you really think it was fought at the same level as the FOTC, then you, sir, are a dope.





p.s. Quadruple Sheesh.

The Thrilla in Manilla may not have been fought at quite the same level of skill, but it certainly was the most grueling and exhausting of the 3 bouts for both men in my view both had to show as much heart in that bout as they ever did in any other fight they had.

Whether it was at as "high a level" as the FOTC, really doesn't matter. It was pretty damn elite conditioning and courage for those guys to put on the fight and performances they did that night. So I'd never say an unkind word about that tremendous fight personally.

Guys who would belittle that epic, iconic bout in any way, are the same guys who think boxing began with Tyson-Tubbs.

[gilgamesh]

Of course sparring is not exactly the same as actual rounds in a fight, but it is conducive to maintaining and/or sharpening one's skills leading up to an actual fight.

Have you maybe noticed that sparring is an essential element of training camps leading up to fights?

Ali spent considerable time in the gym during that big, bad layoff. Do you think he could stay away from boxing?

He looked good against Quarry in '70. Bonavena, an awkward but strong guy, was very difficult for anyone to look good against. Had Ali fought '70 Oscar in '67 it still would have been an awkward fight.

Ali was ready on 3/8/71. I'm not fooled by the myth making machine.

And of course I was being sarcastic about the layoff before the Holmes fight.

And Manila was a great fight, but if you really think it was fought at the same level as the FOTC, then you, sir, are a dope.





p.s. Quadruple Sheesh.

The Thrilla in Manilla may not have been fought at quite the same level of skill, but it certainly was the most grueling and exhausting of the 3 bouts for both men in my view both had to show as much heart in that bout as they ever did in any other fight they had.

Whether it was at as "high a level" as the FOTC, really doesn't matter. It was pretty damn elite conditioning and courage for those guys to put on the fight and performances they did that night. So I'd never say an unkind word about that tremendous fight personally.

Guys who would belittle that epic, iconic bout in any way, are the same guys who think boxing began with Tyson-Tubbs.

Hell even Tyson-Tubbs was well before my time as a fan, but I respect and admire greatness in my beloved sport all through the ages.

[Giancarlo]

While on his knees, Eduardo was half-pushed and half-punched by a left hook to the left ear, and
fell out of the Ring and onto the Ring Apron / Press Table.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... nbzsWB-_tg

You are making this stuff up.

The only person claiming Corletti was pushed was his manager.

If you read the article, you will see the writer states he was knocked down quite legitimately and tumbled through the ropes. No mention of Lewis pushing him.

So, he wasn't hit when he was down (your 1st claim) nor was he pushed from the ring (your 2nd claim).

You must be one crazy dude.

[yancey]

While on his knees, Eduardo was half-pushed and half-punched by a left hook to the left ear, and
fell out of the Ring and onto the Ring Apron / Press Table.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... nbzsWB-_tg

You are making this stuff up.

The only person claiming Corletti was pushed was his manager.

If you read the article, you will see the writer states he was knocked down quite legitimately and tumbled through the ropes. No mention of Lewis pushing him.

So, he wasn't hit when he was down (your 1st claim) nor was he pushed from the ring (your 2nd claim).

You must be one crazy dude.

Attention Il Duce,

Being called "crazy" by this certified loon should be considered a Badge of Honor. Wear it proudly.

Attention Certified Loon,

Go check out some of Senor PeePee's "commentary" to find stuff more your speed.

[BoxBuzz]

Gentlemen, I call for order.

Where and when did we jettison the ability to disagree without being granberryish in our venomous retorts? Let's all gather around a generous keg of suds, and pledge to ignore all those we opine to be weak minded, irrelevant, insidious, absurd, duplicitous, ambiguous, and/or androgynous or perplexing. Regardless of the color or size of their font or political or religious persuasion.

[Giancarlo]

Gentlemen, I call for order.

Where and when did we jettison the ability to disagree without being granberryish in our venomous retorts? Let's all gather around a generous keg of suds, and pledge to ignore all those we opine to be weak minded, irrelevant, insidious, absurd, duplicitous, ambiguous, and/or androgynous or perplexing. Regardless of the color or size of their font or political or religious persuasion.

Alternatively, you could pretend you were interested in boxing and read the links that guy has put up.

Then, when the 'summaries' he provides do not match the actual content of the links, you could ask him what his game is.

Or, just carry on as normal Buzz, and only have an opinion if it involves shitcanning Aaron Pryor or humping Joe Frazier's leg.

Jesus bless.

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo,

Go read several of the articles regarding that bout.

I never said that Eduardo wasn't floored by a legitimate punch.

You claimed that Eduardo was 'counted out',,,,,,,,,which he was not.

That Is A Fact Jack !!!!!!

I agree. It was NOT a KO. I was wrong as I had only the boxrec result which listed it as a KO.

Now, having read the two reports you put up, I agree it was TKO and a legitimate one where one guy smashed the other guy so hard he fell out of the ring.

Now, tell me again how the guy who was hammered to the floor and out of the ring was a legitimate threat to Ali.

[RAPIDFIRE]

Really can't believe some of the comments being posted here on this topic.
I'm only assuming that some of you must have been prize fighters that trained as professional fighters.
I'm certain that Ali and every other fighter knew.... what they needed to do as far as training, sparring etc.
and also knew...what level of training/skills they were at on a specific date and time.... and how much time/training was
needed to get back to the top of their PEAK skill level and conditioning.
It's my opinion that only Ali himself knew whether his skills were diminishing and at what point in time.
I think everyone would agree...even though its speculation on my part that... its hard to dispute if he wasn't at his peak
he was pretty close getting into the ring for Frazier/Ali 1.
Reasons being :

1) Magnitude of the fight + Pure motivation = Peak Performance.

DATA TO BACK UP MY FORMULA ABOVE
BEING A TITLE FIGHT(that was said not to be legitimate)....BECAUSE IT WAS FRAZIER ...BACK UP HIS PREDICTION TO KO JOE FRAZIER ....
AND HIS PRE FIGHT KIND REMARKS ABOUT JOE FRAZIER

[BoxBuzz]

Gentlemen, I call for order.

Where and when did we jettison the ability to disagree without being granberryish in our venomous retorts? Let's all gather around a generous keg of suds, and pledge to ignore all those we opine to be weak minded, irrelevant, insidious, absurd, duplicitous, ambiguous, and/or androgynous or perplexing. Regardless of the color or size of their font or political or religious persuasion.

Alternatively, you could pretend you were interested in boxing and read the links that guy has put up.

Then, when the 'summaries' he provides do not match the actual content of the links, you could ask him what his game is.

Or, just carry on as normal Buzz, and only have an opinion if it involves shitcanning Aaron Pryor or humping Joe Frazier's leg.

Jesus bless.

read em.....the thoughts you shared did cross my mind, just didn't feel the need to follow up....don't see it as a game, just opinions. I also am not assuming that he was using that particular article to crystallize his point. More of an "info share" moment perhaps. But wasn't judging it to be the do all and end all.

Gianny....you are a hoot. I like your style. It's got "edge" I often smile when I read some of the things that you find the time to type out on your keyboard, while holding out hope that others (such as myself) will take time out to read. (And yes I will continue to read your contributions.) "Edge" is something I find entertaining. It's a characteristic demonstrated quite often by those who also possess a keen intellect. I must admit, that's when I like it the best.

Apparently, you operate similar to some very jealous religious zealots, and take umbrage with those who dare to worship more than one deity. (Jimmy Swaggart or Reverend Sun Myung Moon come to mind.) Yes, I GENUINELY hold Ali and Frazier both in high regard. In my mind, one very much completed the other as a fighter. And in your lineal world this makes me a rump swab for Frazier. Or would that be "Beelzebub"?

Simple minded maybe, but edge? You Betcha!

Have I mentioned to you lately that I don't hold Aaron Pryor in high regard? If not, consider this a reminder. I'd feel remiss if somehow I hadn't made myself clear on that point.

[yancey]

Really can't believe some of the comments being posted here on this topic.
I'm only assuming that some of you must have been prize fighters that trained as professional fighters.
I'm certain that Ali and every other fighter knew.... what they needed to do as far as training, sparring etc.
and also knew...what level of training/skills they were at on a specific date and time.... and how much time/training was
needed to get back to the top of their PEAK skill level and conditioning.
It's my opinion that only Ali himself knew whether his skills were diminishing and at what point in time.
I think everyone would agree...even though its speculation on my part that... its hard to dispute if he wasn't at his peak
he was pretty close getting into the ring for Frazier/Ali 1.
Reasons being :

1) Magnitude of the fight + Pure motivation = Peak Performance.

DATA TO BACK UP MY FORMULA ABOVE
BEING A TITLE FIGHT(that was said not to be legitimate)....BECAUSE IT WAS FRAZIER ...BACK UP HIS PREDICTION TO KO JOE FRAZIER ....
AND HIS PRE FIGHT KIND REMARKS ABOUT JOE FRAZIER

"Magnitude of the fight + Pure motivation = Peak Performance."



You nailed it, RAPIDFIRE.

[RAPIDFIRE]

Really can't believe some of the comments being posted here on this topic.
I'm only assuming that some of you must have been prize fighters that trained as professional fighters.
I'm certain that Ali and every other fighter knew.... what they needed to do as far as training, sparring etc.
and also knew...what level of training/skills they were at on a specific date and time.... and how much time/training was
needed to get back to the top of their PEAK skill level and conditioning.
It's my opinion that only Ali himself knew whether his skills were diminishing and at what point in time.
I think everyone would agree...even though its speculation on my part that... its hard to dispute if he wasn't at his peak
he was pretty close getting into the ring for Frazier/Ali 1.
Reasons being :

1) Magnitude of the fight + Pure motivation = Peak Performance.

DATA TO BACK UP MY FORMULA ABOVE
BEING A TITLE FIGHT(that was said not to be legitimate)....BECAUSE IT WAS FRAZIER ...BACK UP HIS PREDICTION TO KO JOE FRAZIER ....
AND HIS PRE FIGHT KIND REMARKS ABOUT JOE FRAZIER

"Magnitude of the fight + Pure motivation = Peak Performance."



You nailed it, RAPIDFIRE.

Much obliged yancey

[Giancarlo]

Nancy, you fancy giving him a reach-around?

[Giancarlo]

read em.....the thoughts you shared did cross my mind, just didn't feel the need to follow up....

Why?

Because you knew I would do the right thing and point out he was talking out of his arse again?

Or, more likely, you thought "Hey, if I let him have his wank fantasy, he'll let me have mine!"

Jesus bless.

[Giancarlo]

Buzzy, can you point to one post I have made where I made any disparaging remarks about Frazier?

Jesus bless.

[RAPIDFIRE]

Nancy, you fancy giving him a reach-around?

Boxbuzz wrote the following:

"Gentlemen, I call for order.
Where and when did we jettison the ability to disagree without being granberryish in our venomous retorts?

Why don't you respond accordingly to this venom spitter . Not sure what the term "granberryish" means...
lets be fair ... and it should be applied to this vulgar remark as well. If you disagree with someone's comments state your views
and your side as you see it. Maybe he is used to giving what he suggesting here.

[yancey]

Nancy, you fancy giving him a reach-around?

Boxbuzz wrote the following:

"Gentlemen, I call for order.
Where and when did we jettison the ability to disagree without being granberryish in our venomous retorts?

Why don't you respond accordingly to this venom spitter . Not sure what the term "granberryish" means...
lets be fair ... and it should be applied to this vulgar remark as well. If you disagree with someone's comments state your views
and your side as you see it. Maybe he is used to giving what he suggesting here.

RAPIDFIRE,

Giancarlo is a complete nut job.

Don't worry about him. Since I've been here, he has changed his name at least three times. Buzz lets him stick around out of kindness and for our collective amusement, I suppose.

btw, welcome to the board.