jack johnson

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 30 Oct 2005, 21:13

i give him a lot of credit for beating langford, mcvey, and jeaneete.

but he beat them before he won the title, and he beat a 156lb langford.

i would have loved to see johnson give one of the three a shot at his title, especially when langford became 185lb heavy. how come johnson didnt give one of these guys a title shot??? was he afraid of losing his title to one of them because they all had gotten better?

or was it because they were black and it wouldnt sell??

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 30 Oct 2005, 21:22

im not sure but i read somewhere that jack johnson was scared to death of fighting sam langford at heavyweight.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Oct 2005, 23:25

Didn't Jeanette beat Johnson more times than Johnson beat Jeanette?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 31 Oct 2005, 01:48

I saw some documentary on him called "unforgivable darkness" The show had said he did refuse to fight most black fighters of the time. He was aparrently somewhat worried these fighters had become as good or better than him. But just as you said BB, it would not hve drawn in the revenue that Johnson needed to maintain his several whorehouses! Hell of a tough pimp!

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 31 Oct 2005, 07:38

He could make more money beating up white hopes then fighting black greats. And I think people would have been more angry at him if he fought a black man, becuae if he lost another black man would hold the title. IMO, Langford was dominated the first time around and probably wouldn't have fared any better, but McVey (who I've read Johnson handled rather well), Jeannette (who he didn't handle well) and probably even a young Harry Wills deserved a shot. Too much politics involved, and I don't think Johnson was afraid to fight any man.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 31 Oct 2005, 12:02

johnson fought langford first time when langford was only 156lbs

- i would have loved to see a rematc when langford was in the 185 range

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 31 Oct 2005, 12:19

Langford was only a middleweight, but Johnson also weighed less then he did during his championship years, scaling around 185.

That's a 30 lb discrepency.

If they'd fought in 1910, Langford would've scaled about 177, to Johnson's 207, also a 30 lb weight difference.

It would've ended the same, with Johnson winning.

Johnson's decision to take on white challengers was a calculated business move-more $ for less risk.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 01 Nov 2005, 14:42

BoxBuzz wrote:Didn't Jeanette beat Johnson more times than Johnson beat Jeanette?

Jeanette just beat Johnson once, and that was by disqualification.
Johnson won a decision over Jeanette, and they also had several no-decisions.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 01 Nov 2005, 14:43

If I recall some of those "no decisions" were adjusted for the history books "after the fact" I'll try to find the source of this claim and give some info on it.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 01 Nov 2005, 17:06

Langford was only a middleweight, but Johnson also weighed less then he did during his championship years, scaling around 185.

That's a 30 lb discrepency.

If they'd fought in 1910, Langford would've scaled about 177, to Johnson's 207, also a 30 lb weight difference

no u cant say that its different body percentages. 156 to 185 is a lot more advantage to johnson than 177 to 207.

if johnson fought langford weighing 160lbs and langford weighed 130lbs that would mean a middleweightss fighting a super featherweight

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 01 Nov 2005, 17:55

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Langford was only a middleweight, but Johnson also weighed less then he did during his championship years, scaling around 185.

That's a 30 lb discrepency.

If they'd fought in 1910, Langford would've scaled about 177, to Johnson's 207, also a 30 lb weight difference

no u cant say that its different body percentages. 156 to 185 is a lot more advantage to johnson than 177 to 207.

if johnson fought langford weighing 160lbs and langford weighed 130lbs that would mean a middleweightss fighting a super featherweight

I agree it's a greater difference but it's not enough to convince me Langford would've had a shot. 160lbers spar with 185 lbers all the time, as I did when I was young. Langford won a round at most vs Jack. Some extra muscle isn't gonna turn the tide there . . .

barry · Post by **barry** » 02 Nov 2005, 12:49

Sherlock summed it up well. J

ohnson could make more money fighting the white hopes than other colored opponents.

Langford is my all-time favorite, but Johnson beat his ears off when they met in the ring and I honestly don't think there would be much difference in the result had they fought at similar weights later on in their careers, although I wish the rematch would have occured!

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 02 Nov 2005, 13:07

Johnson did not want to fight black challengers for the crown because he believed that two black fighters would not draw flies in a title fight and he was correct, although -sadly- men like Langford and Jeanette were discriminated against not only by white champions but -as in this case- by champions of their own race.

Langford and Johnson fought once, and despite the legend, the fact is that Johnson whupped Langford, being too big and too heavy, cutting his lip and I believe -not too sure- also knocked down Langford in the process.

Woodman -Langford's manager- admitted after Langford died that the fight had not been as close as some had claimed for decades.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 02 Nov 2005, 13:33

I think it is fair to say that far less is known about the Johnson Jeanette events.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 02 Nov 2005, 13:43

Langford didn't hit his prime until 1912 or 1914.

disagree i think it was 1907-1912 when langford was 25-20 years old, his fighting best was at 160-185, what makes langford amazing is he knocked out harry wills twice passt his prime.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 02 Nov 2005, 16:52

If Johnson was using the argument that fighting black fighters for the title wouldn't draw money, than why did he fight Battling Jim Johnson in 1913 in Paris? That was advertised as a heavyweight title fight. Also, considering that McVey and Jeannette had their classic 49 round fight in Paris and McVey fought there many times, there is no reason to believe he couldn't have fought McVey or Jeannette in Paris like he fought Jim Johnson. That fight would have attracted more money than the Battling Jim fight and both McVey and Jeannette were heavyweights in terms of weight, unlike Langford. Not to mention, Johnson didn't even fight exhibitions (to my knowledge) with these black fighters after he became champion to help them earn some money considering these same fighters allowed him to stay busy and earn money before he became champion.

Plain and simply, as Jeannette once remarked, "Jack forgot about his old friends after he became champion and drew the color line against his own people." It doesn't matter if Johnson was scared or not, he should have fought either Jeannette, McVey, or Langford for the title. The fact that he didn't should be held against him at least as much as Dempsey not fighting Wills or Sullivan not fighting Peter Jackson or other cases of avoiding opposite race bouts.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 02 Nov 2005, 23:59

Johnson fought Jeanette, Langford and McVey before he won the title while Dempsey did not fight any top black fighters before winning the title.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 03 Nov 2005, 00:19

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Johnson fought Jeanette, Langford and McVey before he won the title while Dempsey did not fight any top black fighters before winning the title.

While that is true, my point is that there were legit contenders that were bypassed for race reasons by certain champions: Sullivan, Johnson, Dempsey. Yes, Dempsey and Sullivan did not fight black contenders before winning the title either, but it is far worse to bypass legit title contenders for race reasons in championship bouts than in non-championship bouts where far less money and prestige are involved. I'm not excusing either, but the championship is on a far larger stage. Dempsey, Sullivan, and Johnson are all guilty of this.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 03 Nov 2005, 07:45

enrique wrote: Langford and Johnson fought once, and despite the legend, the fact is that Johnson whupped Langford, being too big and too heavy, cutting his lip and I believe -not too sure- also knocked down Langford in the process.

From everything I've read, Johnson floored Langford twice and pretty much held him up.

And when comparing Johnson's opponents, you must realize Johnson had to make his fights against black opponents competitive to be able to get rematches. He never went all out on a black opponent.

While were on the subject, there are two fighters I'd have loved to see him fight:Harry Wills in 1916 and Bill Tate. Tate was one of the great black fighters of that era, though he was a step behind McVey, Langford and Jeannette, but was even in my opinion with Battling Johnson or Ed Martin whom Johnson beat. It would be interesting to see how Johnson coped with a lot taller man with good boxing skills. A young Wills would have a great challenge to Johnson late in his career too.

jack johnson

jack johnson

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not the same

Re: not the same