Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[BoxBuzz]

Buzzy, can you point to one post I have made where I made any disparaging remarks about Frazier?

Jesus bless.

Not exactly, though indirectly by not pointing out that I rate Ali higher than Frazier, (I assume leg hump=rating in your "language") does seem to tell me that you find being complimentary to Joe unsuitable to your tastes somehow. And this is one of those discussions that seems to draw you to the fire just as a good Aaron Pryor discussion can find me chiming in perhaps too often to suit you.

Disingenuous you be, and revealed it is.

Really....it's just about being a bit civil. I'd like to see the drama drained out of some of the differences of opinion. There is much that is subjective. Why pretend otherwise.

[Roars Like Me]

Buzzy, can you point to one post I have made where I made any disparaging remarks about Frazier?

Jesus bless.

Not exactly, though indirectly by not pointing out that I rate Ali higher than Frazier, (I assume leg hump=rating in your "language") does seem to tell me that you find being complimentary to Joe unsuitable to your tastes somehow. And this is one of those discussions that seems to draw you to the fire just as a good Aaron Pryor discussion can find me chiming in perhaps too often to suit you.

Disingenuous you be, and revealed it is.

Really....it's just about being a bit civil. I'd like to see the drama drained out of some of the differences of opinion. There is much that is subjective. Why pretend otherwise.

Who is this Jesus Bless? My money is on Ali at either stage

[yancey]

Buzzy, can you point to one post I have made where I made any disparaging remarks about Frazier?

Jesus bless.

Not exactly, though indirectly by not pointing out that I rate Ali higher than Frazier, (I assume leg hump=rating in your "language") does seem to tell me that you find being complimentary to Joe unsuitable to your tastes somehow. And this is one of those discussions that seems to draw you to the fire just as a good Aaron Pryor discussion can find me chiming in perhaps too often to suit you.

Disingenuous you be, and revealed it is.

Really....it's just about being a bit civil. I'd like to see the drama drained out of some of the differences of opinion. There is much that is subjective. Why pretend otherwise.

I think Giancarlo's problem is that Smoke didn't follow the hoped for script and fall victim to the Ali psych job in The Big One.

He is not the only one with that problem.

[yancey]

Some Muhammad Ali bouts that we most likely would have seen.

-------1967------
* Floyd Patterson II
* Oscar Bonavena
* Thad Spencer
* Karl Mildenberger II

-------1968------
* Eduardo Corletti
* Henry Cooper III
* Buster Mathis

------1969-----
* Gregorio Peralta
* Jerry Quarry
* Joe Frazier

1969 was Frazier's real prime.

What would have been the point with a third Ali-Cooper fight?

[BoxBuzz]

Now I believe that if we would have seen that 1969 fight, and Ali would have remained active....

We might see two dead fighters at bouts end. Closest thing to death that boxing could have ever produced. I'd still pick Muhammad, but in the closest option that actually played out, it was Joe.

And that for has to be the final word on this (at least for me). When it was real, it went the other way.

[Giancarlo]

Buzz, grow a pair and make yourself useful will ya?

First point out all the disparaging remarks I have made about Frazier.

Then point out all the disparaging remarks Nancy has made about Ali.

Then use your new found set of balls and ban the one of us who is ahead in the count.

Cos at the moment you are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Jesus bless.

[BoxBuzz]

chocolate teapot.

Jesus bless.

Melty chocolate tea? A Holy grand idea.

[yancey]

Buzz, grow a pair and make yourself useful will ya?

First point out all the disparaging remarks I have made about Frazier.

Then point out all the disparaging remarks Nancy has made about Ali.

Then use your new found set of balls and ban the one of us who is ahead in the count.

Cos at the moment you are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Jesus bless.

poor wittle baby.

:(

[yancey]

Most would agree,

That a November 1969 bout between Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali would have
have ended up with 'Smokin Joe' as the winner, most likely by a TKO late.

Not sure if Muhammad would have retired, as he probably would have come back
in mid-1970 and score wins over Floyd Patterson {August 1970} and Jerry Quarry
{October 1970} and Oscar Bonavena {December 1970}.

This would set up the March 1971 rematch with World Champion - Joe Frazier.

March 1971, 'Smokin Joe' wins again, this time by a solid and Unanimous 15-Round Decision.
{See FOTC}.

Muhammad will ask for an immediate rematch and third bout with 'Smokin Joe', but it
is not to be.

Sounds right as rain.

[Fireball]

Hard to say, I can't imagine that he would've been anything less than phenomenal during the years when he was exiled from the sport, and I also figure if not for his exile he wouldn't have struggled so badly with Bonavena in 1970.

The real question is would Joe Frazier have ever been Champion if not for his absence?

During those years in exile, if he wasn't exiled, he probably would have racked up 10 more successful defenses.

[yancey]

Bonavena would always present tough moments and a struggle. We're not talking Brian London here.

I really think some of you believe that '66 Ali floats and dances and stings all 15 without ever the need to steal time.

That would be a myth, lads.

[Hairy Arse]

Another point about Ali's exile: Its pretty overblown. He was not allowed to box professionally (in the United States) but he still boxed exhibitions and sparred on a regular basis with some of the best boxers in the world.

He might have still sparred during this period but he certainly wasn't boxing exhibitions. None of the local boxing commisions would permit him to hold such bouts in their state due to his refusal of the draft - not even when bouts were organized for charitable events. In fact, the three short exhibitions bouts he fought in Georgia in early September of 1970 was the first time he had fought in a public setting since June of 1967, when he fought two three-round exhibitions in Detroit.

[SenorPipino]

Bonavena would always present tough moments and a struggle. We're not talking Brian London here.

I really think some of you believe that '66 Ali floats and dances and stings all 15 without ever the need to steal time.

That would be a myth, lads.

How can it be a myth? Nobody, pure and simple, has suggested it up except you. It's simply your opinion. Apparently you've been overdosing from your own invention---a short-circuiting "Ali myth machine."
The Bonavena fight in '70 was an ordeal because of the layoff, not only because Oscar was so awkward. Watch the fight, don't just fantasize it as you want it to be.
Ali struggled with his timing, stamina, and balance.
He would have had the same difficulties against any worthy foe. It was his first 15 round fight in nearly 4 years.

[yancey]

Bonavena would always present tough moments and a struggle. We're not talking Brian London here.

I really think some of you believe that '66 Ali floats and dances and stings all 15 without ever the need to steal time.

That would be a myth, lads.

How can it be a myth? Nobody, pure and simple, has suggested it up except you. It's simply your opinion. Apparently you've been overdosing from your own invention---a short-circuiting "Ali myth machine."
The Bonavena fight in '70 was an ordeal because of the layoff, not only because Oscar was so awkward. Watch the fight, don't just fantasize it as you want it to be.
Ali struggled with his timing, stamina, and balance.
He would have had the same difficulties against any worthy foe. It was his first 15 round fight in nearly 4 years.

Yeah, he impressed much more against a cripple, an overseas stiff, a near helpless shell of a once very fine heavyweight, a plodder with zero offense, and a over-the hill plodder nice guy rewarded with a paycheck.

Timing and balance looked great in those fights, especially since he wasn't getting pushed.

Oh, I omitted an opponent with "balance" issues. Can't forget that one.

Ali was a truly great champ, but most all this layoff crap came after he got whipped in The Big One. He was ready.

[BoxBuzz]

Dear Yancey,

Fact: Joe lost 2 out of 3. Was saved during the course of #2 by a benevolent and kind referee. (Don't they get paid by the round?) And Ali eventually stopped him at the culmination of their conflicts.

And that's what Paul Harvey (and his son) would describe as "The rest of the story". This should not be so easily written off as if they only had a 15 round exchange.

Sincere Regards, from your friend, in all matters of pugilistic debate

Buzz

[yancey]

Buzz,

Did anybody push pre-layoff Ali to the limit like Frazier did in their first fight?

If the answer is "no" is it just a little bit possible that this timing and rhythm stuff that FOTC Ali supposedly lost was in fact caused by pressure and relentless punching like he had never dealt with before?

Do you reckon that a very sharp guy like Dundee would have ever recommended going against Frazier 3/8/71 if he didn't didn't feel deep down that his charge could get the job done?

The excuses started a short time after the fight, not before.

Absolutely agree that Ali is the official winner of the two lesser encounters

I suppose I should shut up and respect the fact that Tony Perez saved Frazier from certain knockout in the first less significant encounter.

Best regards,

Yancey

[Giancarlo]

I really think some of you believe that '66 Ali floats and dances and stings all 15 without ever the need to steal time.

Obsessed much with Ali?

[Giancarlo]

Yeah, he impressed much more against a cripple, an overseas stiff, a near helpless shell of a once very fine heavyweight, a plodder with zero offense, and a over-the hill plodder nice guy rewarded with a paycheck.

Obsessed much with Ali?

[scallum]

If LeBron James takes off 3.5 years right now from bball will he still be the best when he came back ? No Elite #1, athlete can take off that much time and expect to remain the best.

[BoxBuzz]

Buzz,

Did anybody push pre-layoff Ali to the limit like Frazier did in their first fight?

If the answer is "no" is it just a little bit possible that this timing and rhythm stuff that FOTC Ali supposedly lost was in fact caused by pressure and relentless punching like he had never dealt with before?

Do you reckon that a very sharp guy like Dundee would have ever recommended going against Frazier 3/8/71 if he didn't didn't feel deep down that his charge could get the job done?

The excuses started a short time after the fight, not before.

Absolutely agree that Ali is the official winner of the two lesser encounters

I suppose I should shut up and respect the fact that Tony Perez saved Frazier from certain knockout in the first less significant encounter.

Best regards,

Yancey

No one pushed him as hard. No doubt. Took him about 40 rounds to get the job done. And yes send Tony a little gift.

[SenorPipino]

Most would agree,[/b]That a November 1969 bout between Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali would have
have ended up with 'Smokin Joe' as the winner, most likely by a TKO late.

Not sure if Muhammad would have retired, as he probably would have come back
in mid-1970 and score wins over Floyd Patterson {August 1970} and Jerry Quarry
{October 1970} and Oscar Bonavena {December 1970}.

This would set up the March 1971 rematch with World Champion - Joe Frazier.

March 1971, 'Smokin Joe' wins again, this time by a solid and Unanimous 15-Round Decision.
{See FOTC}.

Muhammad will ask for an immediate rematch and third bout with 'Smokin Joe', but it
is not to be.

Most would agree? Most would agree??
Was a Gallup Poll conducted that came to that result?
More likely, most would probably agree that if Ali met Frazier in 1969, which is considered by many to be Ali's unseen prime, Ali would win comfortably, most likely by decision.
If a largely inactive Ali with only 18 rounds behind him in 4 years, can give Frazier all he could handle in 1971, then the active 1969 version would dance and jab even a prime Joe silly.
There's got to be a reason why just about all ATG heavyweight polls list Ali well ahead of Frazier. It's because prime 2 prime, most would agree that Ali comes out the winner.

[The Great John L]

More likely, most would probably agree that if Ali met Frazier in 1969, which is considered by many to be Ali's unseen prime, Ali would win comfortably, most likely by decision.

While Ali may very well have won, it would not have been very comfortable for either one of them.

[SenorPipino]

More likely, most would probably agree that if Ali met Frazier in 1969, which is considered by many to be Ali's unseen prime, Ali would win comfortably, most likely by decision.

While Ali may very well have won, it would not have been very comfortable for either one of them.

Tough in the ring but nevertheless comfortable on the scorecards.
Frazier was tough for anyone not named Foreman.

[The Great John L]

More likely, most would probably agree that if Ali met Frazier in 1969, which is considered by many to be Ali's unseen prime, Ali would win comfortably, most likely by decision.

While Ali may very well have won, it would not have been very comfortable for either one of them.

Tough in the ring but nevertheless comfortable on the scorecards.
Frazier was tough for anyone not named Foreman.

And a younger, better prepared Joe would have been tough for George as well.

[Ambling Alp II]

If LeBron James takes off 3.5 years right now from bball will he still be the best when he came back ? No Elite #1, athlete can take off that much time and expect to remain the best.

See...... Ted Williams {Baseball}

You don't think that about 30 Spring Training games and a 154 game schedule helps?
Look at Jordan when he came back, he was not anywhere near what he had been that season
Better yet, look at every boxer who has been off close to that amount of time. None were better and most are significantly worse.