Why do people rate old fighters so much?

Controversial
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Post by Controversial »

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Did Marciano have superb boxing skill?
what are u implying???

if u knew anything about marciano u would realize he was the farthest thing away from a stylish boxer. but he used the advantagess he had aand made himself into a great fighter. he was ackward and used it to his advantge making himself a very small target and hard to hit, especially in the crouch. he had boxing skill in his own way, a way no other fighter will ever use.

theres a theory the more shots u take on goal, ur bound to eventually get one in. marciano never stopped throwing punches becaause eventually ur bound to get that one home. but usually he was more tactical at the approach he used to get in.



walcott lost fights by knockout before his prime when he was malnourished, poor, with no training, coming on last minutes notice to faace top contenders

walcott outboxed and embarassed abe simon for 5 rounds but walcott was terrible malnourished with no stamina and he basically collapsed in the 6th round due to exhaustion.


louis was knocked out by schmeling whos better than rahman and mcail, and when he was past his prime by legendery marciano


charles lost most of his fights before or after his prime. he was only knocked out once in his prime, by cutie jersey joe walcott left hook.




bck in the day fighters fought a lot more, so losing a fight here and there wasnt as big a deal
This is my point exactly. Excuses are always made about the older fighters when they loose but people are not always so keen to make those excuses for todays fighters.

Does it matter who knocks you out, a hard punch feels the same whether its from Tyson, Bert Cooper, Bruno or Rahman?
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Post by The Great John L »

headhunter wrote:i`m no expert on american footy but i reckon most of those fella`s are juiced up to the eyeballs.
Unfortunately, that's probably true.
barry
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Post by barry »

Still waiting to hear about the sources of such knowledge about the old-timers!
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Post by barry »

>>>Eye-witness reports<<<<

Such as what?
BrocktonBlockbuster49
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Post by BrocktonBlockbuster49 »

walcott outboxed and embarassed abe simon for 5 rounds but walcott was terrible malnourished with no stamina and he basically collapsed in the 6th round due to exhaustion.
controversial, u say this was an exuse???

- this fight is hard to find, but i got it from aan old timer who was around at the time. he described to me how walcott easily outboxed simon for 5 rounds, but was a teribly malnourished and took the fight on 3 daays notice so he wasnr in shape, and walcott basically collasped in the 6th

controversial, would u like to explain to me why walcott lost to every top contender he faced in his 20s but in his thirties beat the likes of ezzard charles, Joe loui(first fight), nearly marciano?



look at ezzard career, he only lost twice in his prime and that was to elmer ray and walcott.
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Post by bill.lockhart »

The golden era of any sport is seen through a boys childhood memories.
The guy who was champ when he was 12 years old will always be the
the real champ. My dad said nobody could lick Jack Dempsey. He was a real fighter. My father was born in 1911. Floyd Patterson was my favourite. I was born in 1952. You ask who is my favourite ball player.
Yep ... Mickey Mantle
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Post by barry »

>>>The guy who was champ when he was 12 years old will always be the real champ.<<<

I don't know...I was born in 1971, yet I am much more fond of boxing the was pre-1940, favorite period being 1895 thru 1920. It was Holmes & Tyson who were the dominant heavyweights when I was growing up, and while I rank both high, neither are the best for me. As to baseball, well Lou Gehrig has always been my favorite and Nolan Ryan my favorite pitcher, though he was far from being the best pitcher...I would probably give that to Walter Johnson, or Christy Mathewson. But what yoiu're saying is often the case.
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Post by Seamus »

I don't know what to make of that claim about Walcott, and I like Jersey Joe. He was 192 lbs and malnourished ? If that's true, taking a bout on 3 days notice against a 256 lb guy that can punch is a recipe for disaster, still I wouldn't excuse it. Angel Manfredy, a guy I once expected great things from, was stopped in his first pro fight, because in his own words, he partied all night with his friends the evening before the bout.
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Post by dempseyfire »

He took that fight in 1940, when the country was just emerging from the Depression. In those times if you wern't a top 5 fighter you took whatever fights you could get for the $. Much different conditions then exist now, when most fighters know months beforehand of their fights and go through all the promotion etc.
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Post by BrocktonBlockbuster49 »


I don't know what to make of that claim about Walcott, and I like Jersey Joe. He was 192 lbs and malnourished ? If that's true, taking a bout on 3 days notice against a 256 lb guy that can punch is a recipe for disaster, still I wouldn't excuse it
a peak walcott would have boxed circles around simon and probably knocked him out. even an inexperienced walcott did it for 5 rounds
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Post by Jaclem »

..just tossing this in ...without getting into the larger argument....in an interview i saw on tv some time in the 50s abe simom said walcott hit him harder than any other fighter....and simon gzve joe louis two tough fights...especially the first one.
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Post by BrocktonBlockbuster49 »

Jaclem wrote:..just tossing this in ...without getting into the larger argument....in an interview i saw on tv some time in the 50s abe simom said walcott hit him harder than any other fighter....and simon gzve joe louis two tough fights...especially the first one.
walcott was a hard hitter, his knockout percentaage is very misleading!

- almost all over his knockouts or knockdowns were one punch in either hand. he could pack a wallop, he got the power from his huge upperbody muscles and BIG HANDS

my grandfather said walcott had a mitt! his hands were huge!

http://x1.putfile.com/7/21023431675.gif

one of the greatest left hooks and sucker punches of all time
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Post by Rory McCloskey »

thats cool BB how did u get the video on here? and who is that walcott is KOing
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Post by BrocktonBlockbuster49 »

Rory McCloskey wrote:thats cool BB how did u get the video on here? and who is that walcott is KOing
u never seen the walcott-charles III fight??

must see. its walcott knocking out charles to win the heavyweight title
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Post by Rory McCloskey »

ive seen there first fight.. ill have to look around for that fight. is it me or does charles almost look like floyd patterson in the video?
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Post by bill.lockhart »

Barry,

Since you didn't see Johnson or Matthewson pitch, to say they were the best, you have to go by their stats, which I must admit, were tremendous.
I have often read about Jim Corbett, the father of modern day boxing.
Some time ago, I came across a film of him sparring with some guy. It was one of the first films taken of early boxing. It was filmed in something referred to as the Back Maria. A very small area set up to specifically film this event. Granted, it was only sparring, & the film was very primitive, but I couldn't believe my eyes. There is Corbett, the world champion throwing punches with his eyes closed & chin way up in the air. Seeing is believing. Corbett may have bested the brawlers of an earlier era, but only because they had no boxing skill whatsoever. Tough,
rugged & durable as they may have been. I swear I could have beaten Corbett. But I bet, their was some 12 year old kid around that time who thought he was the best their ever could be. All this of course makes me a little sceptical of the old timers. Now what do we have ? A bunch of mammoths on steroids. Things aren't always as they seem.
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Post by dempseyfire »

I'm sure you are referring to the Courtney-Corbett film, which was completly staged and not reflective of Corbett's skills at all. He's basically playing around the whole time.

In the film of Fitz-Corbett, you see a much more impressive fighter, with Corbett dancing like Ali and throwing out sharp jabs and one twos.
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Post by bill.lockhart »

Brockbuster,

I thought Jersey Joe was a tremendousy entertaining & very skillful fighter. I loved to watch him just walk away from people. He used an economy of motion so wonderfully. I think this was his greatest asset. Unlike Ali who would dance rings around people, Old Joe would just make them miss, by the tiniest bit, & be in a perfect place to counter. This style prolonged his career & put him in position to fight so effectively into his late 30's. Did you know his trainer Dan Florio,was also Floyd Patterson's
trainer up until his death in 1965.
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Post by bill.lockhart »

dempseyfire

That is exactly the film. I guess I won't have to make a comeback now.

Thanks, It stands to reason. Corbett did not look good.
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Post by barry »

dempseyfire stated it right...the Courtney-Corbett exhibition is in no way at all a gauge to how Corbett fought, which if you had taken the time to find out about it the exhibition was staged for one of the very first films in history then you would have taken into consideration that it is in no way a real fight, but a fake in which neither fighter were trying to inflict any kind of hurt on one another, hence the slappy-type of fighting...remember, this wasn't 2000 Hollywood, where a computer can pull a punch for a fighter!

As to Mathewson and Johnson, I have seen them, so your wrong about that...but their stats are incredible and baseball stats are a lot different than boxing stats in terms of what they tell. Consider today, that styarting pitchers rarely complete five games in a year, yet they still carry a very high ERA, though there are a lot more homeruns now, but Mathewson and Johnson completed over thirty games a year on several occasions and they still carried an ERA of under 2.00 while pitching in well over 300 innings per year, which is very impressive, especially when you had hitters like Ty Cobb, Sam Crawford, Tris Speaker and Nap Lajoie to face. Of course baseball if played different now and although there are a lot more homeruns being hit, the amount of runs that are being scored are really no different, if anything tjhe old-timers scored more runs than the new baseball!
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Post by bill.lockhart »

Barry,

I think the oldtimers who excelled did so, not only because of their immense talent but also their was no one ready to replace them. Hence, inflated stats. No travel. No pinchhitters, no platooning, no pinch running, no d.h., no relievers. All day baseball. The guys you mention were the best of their era. How do you compare eras? Stats are not the proper way to do it. Speed, strength, power, endurance , things that can be measured. That's the best way. The only fallability, in that, though is the biggest one of all.
It can't measure HEART. Heart plays plays a greater factor in who wins & who doesn't in boxing , than any other sport. As Charley Goldman said. They all look better as far as the moves are concerned, but they don't look so good lying on the rug. When people downplay the Rock they fail to take into account that fact. It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog. 49 & 0. Beat that in any era.
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Post by dnahar32 »

If you are comparing this to baseball, there is far more study that has been done to the evolution of that sport, thanks to SABR. They have factored in parks, dead ball, weather, etc in comparing past stats to today and the numbers and conclusions are quite reasonable. Walter Johnson is the consensus choice as the greatest pitcher of All-Time according to their research and in many minds. We can only wish boxing research could be as deep as it is in baseball.

Bill,
While what you say about the Rock's record is true, there is too much media attention and promoters behind the scenes that wouldn't allow a Rock scenario to happen today. Larry Holmes could have retired 48-0, but there was too much ego and hubris for him to actually retire at that time. Not to mention the media asking about Rocky all the time. If Rock wasn't upset that his manager was shortchanging him on the purses, I don't think he would have retired either. There is always a #1 contender to face, no matter how many you knock off.
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Post by bill.lockhart »

dnahar32

I was not trying to compare the sports. I am saying the only fair way to compare eras is through things we can measure. You can't measure heart though. Rocky's 49 & 0 is not measurable. It is a statistic only. I do say this with some conviction however. Bigger, faster more skilled heavyweights of any era would fare 2nd best to the Brockton Blockbuster
because they would wilt under Rocky's drive, courage & will. Is he the greatest of all time? No one can say for sure that of him or any other fighter. But who had more intangibles ?
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Post by barry »

Things measurable...well ball parks have essentially been the same sizes, yet players usch as Willie Mays and Hank Aaron were two of the most feared sluggers in history, yet neither man weighed over 180 lbs, and Mays was only 5' 11", yet they could hit homeruns with any behemoth playing, so size compared to strength is not as huge a difference as some would like to think, hence fighters like Marciano and Dempsey could just as easy lay out any giant heavyweight of today, just as easy as they did 200 pounders. Though comparing baseball and boxing is two completely different things and the way the two are studied is different. As I said, stats mean everything in baseball just as much yesterday as they do today and if anything power numbers have shrunk. You mention that inflated stats were because of lack of talent, which is completely wrong because up until at least the late 50s there were many, many semi-pro teams all around the country, which before flying became the mode of transport the Pacific Coast League was comparable to the Majors, at least in pay. OF course the stats from the PCL are astronomical as they played around 185 games a year and many of the semi-pro teams had 165+ game schedules as well and every team had there stars. You can go back and read through old record books and old baseball publications and quickly see that for every superstar that got old, there was ten more potential stars to choose from out of all the semi-pro leagues, which included the Negro Leagues.

dnahar32---I've just recently became very interested in SABR. Tracy Callis had told me about it a few years ago, but I never looked into it until a few months ago when I checked out the SABR website and I was blown away by how organized and huge the organization is and I'm planning to join at any time, but I'd like to find out a little more about what all the membership benefits are. Like you said, I wish boxing had as strong a historical interest for people the way baseball does, which IBRO is wonderful, but we our membership compared to SABR is very small, though I think that we currently have the largest, or one of the largest total membership in IBRO history, which got started back in the 1980s!
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Post by Controversial »

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Jaclem wrote:..just tossing this in ...without getting into the larger argument....in an interview i saw on tv some time in the 50s abe simom said walcott hit him harder than any other fighter....and simon gzve joe louis two tough fights...especially the first one.
walcott was a hard hitter, his knockout percentaage is very misleading!

- almost all over his knockouts or knockdowns were one punch in either hand. he could pack a wallop, he got the power from his huge upperbody muscles and BIG HANDS

my grandfather said walcott had a mitt! his hands were huge!

http://x1.putfile.com/7/21023431675.gif

one of the greatest left hooks and sucker punches of all time
??? Since when did huge upperbody muscles and BIG HANDS make someone a powerful puncher ???

Walcott was a solid puncher, I wouldn't say he was devastating though.
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