Where does Floyd Patterson rate among the heavyweight champions? Personally I would not list him among the all time greats such as Ali, Louis, Charles, and others that can be named. He was a good boxer and a somewhat underrated puncher, but I think his chief weakness was not just his chin, but his fragile psychic. After he lost the first fight with Ingo he didn't leave his house for weeks. Another time Patterson knocked an opponent's mouthpiece out and then he actually picked it up and handed it back to the guy! Then, of course, there is the famous disguise incident after the Liston fight.
His shinning moment was when he regained the crown and knocked Ingo out cold with a picture perfect left hook. Patterson, however, said he never wanted to feel that way towards anyone again. Perhaps THAT was the problem. If he had had a tougher temperment he would have rated a few notches higher. As it is, I would put him in the middle of the pack as the champions go. Not a stumblebum by any means but not among the all time greats.
No matter where he rates, Patterson was a good, decent man who in no way deserves that cruel fate that has been handed to him with his current condition.
WHERE DOES PATTERSON RATE?
Re: WHERE DOES PATTERSON RATE?
What is his current condition?THE DANCING MASTER wrote:Where does Floyd Patterson rate among the heavyweight champions? Personally I would not list him among the all time greats such as Ali, Louis, Charles, and others that can be named. He was a good boxer and a somewhat underrated puncher, but I think his chief weakness was not just his chin, but his fragile psychic. After he lost the first fight with Ingo he didn't leave his house for weeks. Another time Patterson knocked an opponent's mouthpiece out and then he actually picked it up and handed it back to the guy! Then, of course, there is the famous disguise incident after the Liston fight.
His shinning moment was when he regained the crown and knocked Ingo out cold with a picture perfect left hook. Patterson, however, said he never wanted to feel that way towards anyone again. Perhaps THAT was the problem. If he had had a tougher temperment he would have rated a few notches higher. As it is, I would put him in the middle of the pack as the champions go. Not a stumblebum by any means but not among the all time greats.
No matter where he rates, Patterson was a good, decent man who in no way deserves that cruel fate that has been handed to him with his current condition.
I heard he is suffering a bit of pugilistica dementia...
Patterson is probably my favorite fighter of all time. As a heavyweight, all time, I think he is in the top 20. And I think he is highly underrated as a pfp fighter. Patterson was a small heavyweight, even for the '50s and '60s, and what he accomplished in spite of his size is remarkable. Take Patterson and enlarge him 10% (20lbs, up to say 210lb ) and I think he is a match for almost any heavyweight in history. I agree his primary weakness was his fragile psyche.
For everything bad people will say about him, I will just say this: An old, far past his prime Patterson gave Jimmy Ellis and Jerry Quarry all they could handle and gave Oscar Bonavena a bit more than he could handle. Ali said that Patterson was the most skilled boxer he ever fought.
-Dapa
Patterson is probably my favorite fighter of all time. As a heavyweight, all time, I think he is in the top 20. And I think he is highly underrated as a pfp fighter. Patterson was a small heavyweight, even for the '50s and '60s, and what he accomplished in spite of his size is remarkable. Take Patterson and enlarge him 10% (20lbs, up to say 210lb ) and I think he is a match for almost any heavyweight in history. I agree his primary weakness was his fragile psyche.
For everything bad people will say about him, I will just say this: An old, far past his prime Patterson gave Jimmy Ellis and Jerry Quarry all they could handle and gave Oscar Bonavena a bit more than he could handle. Ali said that Patterson was the most skilled boxer he ever fought.
-Dapa
Patterson was a good fighter, but I don't think history will place him in the Top 10 H/Weights of all time.... maybe somewhere in the 12-20 range. To my mind, a lot of the good things about Floyd will always be overshadowed by the things that people tend to remember more readily...like....
1: He avoided fighting Liston for as long as Cus D'Amato possibly could do and instead fought a succession of largely unworthy contenders - apart from Ingemar Johansson. But to avoid not only Liston, but also Zora Folley and Eddie Machen was a poor reflection on Floyd and his management. And yes, I know all about D'Amato's stated reluctance to work with promoters/fighters that he claimed had mob connections.... maybe partly valid, maybe partly a handy excuse...but it hurt Floyd's reputation at the time, and afterwards
2: When he eventually found himself regularly fighting the best men of the era (after he lost to Liston for the second time) he was slightly past his best, and though he performed with courage he lost the big ones that mattered. If you ask the average Joe what he remembers about Patterson it will probably be the win over Ingemar in the second fight, the loss in the first one, the two losses to Liston, the losses to Ali.... the losses tend to come thru more than the wins.
Though he was small for a heavyweight by today's standards, Patterson was fast, clever, and could hit.... I don't think he would ever have beaten Liston (physically and mentally weaker), and I'm not at all sure he'd have beaten the likes of Folley and Machen. If he was fighting today, I guess he's be bulked up a la Evander (from L/Heavy/Cruiser to Heavyweight) and hold a title from one of the Alphabet Boys. But my memories of him at his peak were always that of a guy who defended the title against poor quality opposition while Sonny cleaned up the rest of the Top 10.... look at the rankings for the early 60s and see which leading heavy (pre Clay/Ali) Liston didn't beat.... and Patterson didn't avoid...
Just my opinion...J
1: He avoided fighting Liston for as long as Cus D'Amato possibly could do and instead fought a succession of largely unworthy contenders - apart from Ingemar Johansson. But to avoid not only Liston, but also Zora Folley and Eddie Machen was a poor reflection on Floyd and his management. And yes, I know all about D'Amato's stated reluctance to work with promoters/fighters that he claimed had mob connections.... maybe partly valid, maybe partly a handy excuse...but it hurt Floyd's reputation at the time, and afterwards
2: When he eventually found himself regularly fighting the best men of the era (after he lost to Liston for the second time) he was slightly past his best, and though he performed with courage he lost the big ones that mattered. If you ask the average Joe what he remembers about Patterson it will probably be the win over Ingemar in the second fight, the loss in the first one, the two losses to Liston, the losses to Ali.... the losses tend to come thru more than the wins.
Though he was small for a heavyweight by today's standards, Patterson was fast, clever, and could hit.... I don't think he would ever have beaten Liston (physically and mentally weaker), and I'm not at all sure he'd have beaten the likes of Folley and Machen. If he was fighting today, I guess he's be bulked up a la Evander (from L/Heavy/Cruiser to Heavyweight) and hold a title from one of the Alphabet Boys. But my memories of him at his peak were always that of a guy who defended the title against poor quality opposition while Sonny cleaned up the rest of the Top 10.... look at the rankings for the early 60s and see which leading heavy (pre Clay/Ali) Liston didn't beat.... and Patterson didn't avoid...
Just my opinion...J
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15666
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
I agree in ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU SAID BUT, I THINK Patterson beat Eddie Machen in a non-title affair, ain't that true???john2345 wrote:Patterson was a good fighter, but I don't think history will place him in the Top 10 H/Weights of all time.... maybe somewhere in the 12-20 range. To my mind, a lot of the good things about Floyd will always be overshadowed by the things that people tend to remember more readily...like....
1: He avoided fighting Liston for as long as Cus D'Amato possibly could do and instead fought a succession of largely unworthy contenders - apart from Ingemar Johansson. But to avoid not only Liston, but also Zora Folley and Eddie Machen was a poor reflection on Floyd and his management. And yes, I know all about D'Amato's stated reluctance to work with promoters/fighters that he claimed had mob connections.... maybe partly valid, maybe partly a handy excuse...but it hurt Floyd's reputation at the time, and afterwards
2: When he eventually found himself regularly fighting the best men of the era (after he lost to Liston for the second time) he was slightly past his best, and though he performed with courage he lost the big ones that mattered. If you ask the average Joe what he remembers about Patterson it will probably be the win over Ingemar in the second fight, the loss in the first one, the two losses to Liston, the losses to Ali.... the losses tend to come thru more than the wins.
Though he was small for a heavyweight by today's standards, Patterson was fast, clever, and could hit.... I don't think he would ever have beaten Liston (physically and mentally weaker), and I'm not at all sure he'd have beaten the likes of Folley and Machen. If he was fighting today, I guess he's be bulked up a la Evander (from L/Heavy/Cruiser to Heavyweight) and hold a title from one of the Alphabet Boys. But my memories of him at his peak were always that of a guy who defended the title against poor quality opposition while Sonny cleaned up the rest of the Top 10.... look at the rankings for the early 60s and see which leading heavy (pre Clay/Ali) Liston didn't beat.... and Patterson didn't avoid...
Just my opinion...J
Floyd Patterson
Patterson, or maybe I should say Cus D'amato, did duck Machen and Folley, but I think that he may be getting a bad rap on Liston. Liston went to prison for about a year in the late 1950's for beating up a cop, and by the time that Liston got out and became a top contender, Patterson was involved in his trilogy with Ingemar Johansson. Patterson did fight Liston after he was done with Johannson.
D'amato did agree to fight the winner of a Machen-Folley fight in the late 1950's, but when the fight was a draw, D'amato said that the two fighters eliminated each other.
Due to his two knockouts at the hands of Liston, Patterson will never be ranked with the great all time heavyweights, but Floyd could have been one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time if he had stayed in that division. JMO.
D'amato did agree to fight the winner of a Machen-Folley fight in the late 1950's, but when the fight was a draw, D'amato said that the two fighters eliminated each other.
Due to his two knockouts at the hands of Liston, Patterson will never be ranked with the great all time heavyweights, but Floyd could have been one of the greatest light heavyweights of all time if he had stayed in that division. JMO.
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tiredoldngrey
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 442
- Joined: 23 May 2005, 12:36
In his 2nd fight after the 2nd Liston loss, Patterson did defeat Machen overt 12. Off the top of my head I can't think of one among his predecessors as champ that I would seer as an underdog against Patterson except for perhaps Marvin Hart and Jess Willard; and Willard, like Tommy Burns, I really only know from two fights. Patterson would do much better against the 'champions' of the Era Of Nine Guys are the Best in Each Division
You guys are right....I'd forgotten that Patterson beat Machen.... apologies! I'll try to recover some temporarily lost pride by saying that I think Machen might have beaten him if they'd fought a few years earlier. I think Eddie was beginning to lose heart with the game by that stage, though his record between fighting Liston and Patterson was good....after the Patterson defeat he went downhill.
Re Floyd getting caught up in the Johannson trilogy and that being the reason Liston had to wait, I can't go along with that 100%. If Floyd had won the first fight with Johannson I think he/Cus would have managed to avoid Liston for as long as possible. Liston beat some top rated fighters while Floyd and ingemar were having their three fights, and by the time they had finished with each other the clamour for a defence against Sonny was too strong to ignore.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Floyd - perhaps he wanted to get it on with Liston, and it was Cus who "boxed clever" on that one. I remember Henry Cooper's manager at the time - Jim Wicks - being asked if he would let Cooper fight Liston and he replied "Liston? I wouldn't even let Henry walk down the same street as him, let alone get into the same ring!". Years later I met Cooper at a function, and got talking to him (nice guy) ...I asked him about fighting Liston in the light of Wicks's comment, and how he felt he'd have done aginst Liston. He sort of avoided giving a direct answer to the question.... ("Yeah! Liston...big guy... but..."). He didn't quite go as far as claiming he'd have Ko'd Sonny but I felt if I had persisted he might have reached that point! (or maybe KO'd me!)
J
Re Floyd getting caught up in the Johannson trilogy and that being the reason Liston had to wait, I can't go along with that 100%. If Floyd had won the first fight with Johannson I think he/Cus would have managed to avoid Liston for as long as possible. Liston beat some top rated fighters while Floyd and ingemar were having their three fights, and by the time they had finished with each other the clamour for a defence against Sonny was too strong to ignore.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Floyd - perhaps he wanted to get it on with Liston, and it was Cus who "boxed clever" on that one. I remember Henry Cooper's manager at the time - Jim Wicks - being asked if he would let Cooper fight Liston and he replied "Liston? I wouldn't even let Henry walk down the same street as him, let alone get into the same ring!". Years later I met Cooper at a function, and got talking to him (nice guy) ...I asked him about fighting Liston in the light of Wicks's comment, and how he felt he'd have done aginst Liston. He sort of avoided giving a direct answer to the question.... ("Yeah! Liston...big guy... but..."). He didn't quite go as far as claiming he'd have Ko'd Sonny but I felt if I had persisted he might have reached that point! (or maybe KO'd me!)
J
Patterson
Patterson's career may justify the "fragile psyche" references, but one thing that struck me about both Patterson fights--Floyd went in ready to beat Liston or be carried out. He was game and full of heart, which might have led to his earlier demise against Sonny. Patterson's speed and boxing ability might have at least extended the bouts a little bit if he had elected to stay away rather than meet his doom head-on.
His hand speed rates with the best heavyweight champions of all-time, in a category with Louis and Ali, and some place Patterson at the top. So he was a good boxer with an average punch who ranks high in the categories of handspeed and heart, which is enough to make him exciting against the top heavyweights, but his chin makes him vulnerable against them all--and yet he fought and either beat or survived against several guys who could punch: Quarry, Cooper, Chuvalo, Machen, and others. In fact he was only stopped by three fighters: Johannsson (who Patterson took 2 out 3), Ali, and Liston. Only Liston really blew him away; the Ali stoppages were TKOs in which Patterson was thoroughly defeated but he did give a good account of himself.
He is hard to rank, but the more I examine his record the more I recognize that he truly was a special fighter and a true--if not great--champion.
His hand speed rates with the best heavyweight champions of all-time, in a category with Louis and Ali, and some place Patterson at the top. So he was a good boxer with an average punch who ranks high in the categories of handspeed and heart, which is enough to make him exciting against the top heavyweights, but his chin makes him vulnerable against them all--and yet he fought and either beat or survived against several guys who could punch: Quarry, Cooper, Chuvalo, Machen, and others. In fact he was only stopped by three fighters: Johannsson (who Patterson took 2 out 3), Ali, and Liston. Only Liston really blew him away; the Ali stoppages were TKOs in which Patterson was thoroughly defeated but he did give a good account of himself.
He is hard to rank, but the more I examine his record the more I recognize that he truly was a special fighter and a true--if not great--champion.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
PATTERSON BECAME A BETTER FIGHT WHEN HE LOST THE BELT. HE BEAT ALL THE TOP CONTENDERS WHEN HE LOST THE BELT. HIS PRIME FIGHT WAS INGEMARR JOHANSSEN II TH0UGH.
REASONS : HE WAS SO YOUNG AND NOT FILLED OUT AND STRONG WHEN HE HELD THE TITLE. HE WAS ONLY 25 26 WHEN HE WAS FIGHTING HIS WARS WITH JOHANNSEN. AFTER HE LOST THE TITLE, HE REACHED AGE
28 and became stronger and a little bigger and i believe he left cus damato who was really hurting him at that point in his career. ALL OF A SUDDEN HE BEATS THE SHIT OUT OF MACHEN FOR 12 ROUNDS AND THEN BEATS TOUGH GEORGE CHUVALO AND THEN GETS ROBBED IN A FIGHT WITH QUARRY, JUDGES CALLED A DRAW.
then loses to quarry in an elimination tourney. then gets a shot at ellis and wha tshould have been his third title turned out to be one of the worst decisions ever. too bad that fight was held in ingemarrs back yard. the ref even called one of the knockdowns a slip. Patterson also defeatedt bonavena and in the 2nd fight with ali dominated the first 5 rounds before getting cut. even ali mentioned patterson wupped his but for the first five rounds in the 2nd fight.
Patterson possesed a powerful left hook. He had top 3 quickest hands in heavyweight history. incredible quick hands. his chin was not good though. i rate him top 20 heavyweight. he would have been one of the best cruiserweights ever, and he was a small heavyweight. and unlike marciano or dempsey, patterson was not big boned and got stuck at 180 earlier in his career not being able to drop 5 pounds . patterson wasnt strong enough to beat a liston at 185 like marciano and dempsey.
REASONS : HE WAS SO YOUNG AND NOT FILLED OUT AND STRONG WHEN HE HELD THE TITLE. HE WAS ONLY 25 26 WHEN HE WAS FIGHTING HIS WARS WITH JOHANNSEN. AFTER HE LOST THE TITLE, HE REACHED AGE
28 and became stronger and a little bigger and i believe he left cus damato who was really hurting him at that point in his career. ALL OF A SUDDEN HE BEATS THE SHIT OUT OF MACHEN FOR 12 ROUNDS AND THEN BEATS TOUGH GEORGE CHUVALO AND THEN GETS ROBBED IN A FIGHT WITH QUARRY, JUDGES CALLED A DRAW.
then loses to quarry in an elimination tourney. then gets a shot at ellis and wha tshould have been his third title turned out to be one of the worst decisions ever. too bad that fight was held in ingemarrs back yard. the ref even called one of the knockdowns a slip. Patterson also defeatedt bonavena and in the 2nd fight with ali dominated the first 5 rounds before getting cut. even ali mentioned patterson wupped his but for the first five rounds in the 2nd fight.
Patterson possesed a powerful left hook. He had top 3 quickest hands in heavyweight history. incredible quick hands. his chin was not good though. i rate him top 20 heavyweight. he would have been one of the best cruiserweights ever, and he was a small heavyweight. and unlike marciano or dempsey, patterson was not big boned and got stuck at 180 earlier in his career not being able to drop 5 pounds . patterson wasnt strong enough to beat a liston at 185 like marciano and dempsey.
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dempseyfire
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5534
- Joined: 29 Oct 2003, 22:56
Patterson is under-rated today b/c he had a not-so stellar championship reign, but his wins over Johanson and Moore are notweworthy, as is his 'win'/loss over Joey Maxim at light HW (a clear robbery if I've ever seen one)
But what is most impressive to me is his post Liston-career. Past his prime, he beat Bonavena, had two coulda gone either way bouts with a prime Jerry Quarry, and lost a controversial decision to a prime Jimmy Ellis, and beat Eddie Machen. In his very last fight he was also beating Ali until a cut got him a TKO loss. Not a bad career for a guy many claimed was finished after the two Liston fights.
Def. not top 10, but probably top 15 along with Lewis, Charles, and Schmeling.
But what is most impressive to me is his post Liston-career. Past his prime, he beat Bonavena, had two coulda gone either way bouts with a prime Jerry Quarry, and lost a controversial decision to a prime Jimmy Ellis, and beat Eddie Machen. In his very last fight he was also beating Ali until a cut got him a TKO loss. Not a bad career for a guy many claimed was finished after the two Liston fights.
Def. not top 10, but probably top 15 along with Lewis, Charles, and Schmeling.
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ringsider
- Heavyweight
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Ringsider then clearly u did not see the 2nd fight cause Patterson outboxed ali for the first 5 rounds. Ali himself admitted patterson came in superb condition and gave him a good lickin in the first 5 rounds. so u dont know what ur talking about in the 2nd fight cause patterson held his own and outboxed ali until his eye got closed late in the fight and the doctor stopped it.
the judge scorecard read like this. I think they are off, the fight should have been at leats even Arthur Mercante 6-1 | Judge: Jack Gordon 4-2 | Judge: Tony Castellano 3-3 all for ali.
the judge scorecard read like this. I think they are off, the fight should have been at leats even Arthur Mercante 6-1 | Judge: Jack Gordon 4-2 | Judge: Tony Castellano 3-3 all for ali.
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bill.lockhart
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 249
- Joined: 01 Nov 2005, 11:40
Floyd Patterson
To me, the biggest thing wrong with boxing to-day is I no longer have Floyd Patterson to cheer for.
He was not only my favourite fighter, but athlete period. People just naturally gravitated to him. He defined class, and sportsmanship. A real gentleman in a sport that doesn't have many.
I can't ever remember him degrading another opponet or complaining about bad decisions. He would suffer in silence. He had a doggedness about him that won over his critics. I once spent a day with him in Niagara Fallls. Never the big shot, just a very quiet, humble person.
No, I don't rate him in the top 10. He was a very good, but not great heavyweight champion. But to me that's hardly the point. I remember, him being asked once, about yet another comeback and his chances of regaining the title. I don't know he said, but I do know one thing. I'm going to enjoy trying. I guess that's what life's all about.
He was not only my favourite fighter, but athlete period. People just naturally gravitated to him. He defined class, and sportsmanship. A real gentleman in a sport that doesn't have many.
I can't ever remember him degrading another opponet or complaining about bad decisions. He would suffer in silence. He had a doggedness about him that won over his critics. I once spent a day with him in Niagara Fallls. Never the big shot, just a very quiet, humble person.
No, I don't rate him in the top 10. He was a very good, but not great heavyweight champion. But to me that's hardly the point. I remember, him being asked once, about yet another comeback and his chances of regaining the title. I don't know he said, but I do know one thing. I'm going to enjoy trying. I guess that's what life's all about.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
: An old, far past his prime Patterson gave Jimmy Ellis and Jerry Quarry all they could handle
actually patterson was in his prime. patterson was still young and green when he won the title and hadnt matured. he got stronger and bigger after he won the title, and when he fought ellis and quarry he wass very much in his prime at 29 years old.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32