Tony Bellew to travel to Canada....

[sgtcecil]

I will be backing cloud to turn over Adonis - don't think he is "all that" and Dawson win flatters him a bit (excellent win nonetheless).

Good luck to tony whoever he gets but I think Stevenson is a more winnable fight for bellew than cloud is.

[bripez]

Judging a fighter's punching power by merely looking at their KO streak is also a flawed method of analysing someone's punching power.

You make it difficult to have a debate.

Based on your own theory, the only way you can prove it one way or another is to borrow that machine from the bloke in Rocky 4 (you know, the one that Ivan Drago punches to test the power) and get both Bellew and Stevenson to take the same test !

[The Law]

Judging a fighter's punching power by merely looking at their KO streak is also a flawed method of analysing someone's punching power. It's not too dissimilar to judging who will beat who based on their performances against mutual opponents by looking at their records. Records can be deceptive (i.e. an 8 fight KO streak against come forward fighters with poor defence does not necessary illustrate greater punching power than a fighter with 4 KOs in 8 fights against some awkward fighters for example).

Which is exactly why I also made reference to footage and consequently didn't even need to resort to the type of anecdotal evidence you're trying to use to justify Bellew's power - sparring partners etc. Though it should be noted if you wanted to introduce this, then this type of evidence is even more compelling than Bellew's yet again. For example, John Scully was quoted in Boxing News as saying about Stevenson's power: "...something Manny Steward told me the last time we really sat down and talked one night in Atlantic City in 2012. The discussion turned to Adonis and Emanuel got so animated talking about him, he told me that he had never seen anything like it, even with Tommy Hearns."
Please bear in mind this is Steward talking to a fellow boxing insider casually rather than in a formal interview with the media, so the element of needing to 'hype' his fighter wasn't present.

One of Bellew's other weaknesses is his handspeed which doesn't help his timing, his power punches were thrown at a greater speed in the amateurs and earlier in his pro career. I'm sure he can improve this as Witter and Ovill McKenzie have done during their careers, for example..

Still the same fallacy - he may well be able to improve it, but earlier in the thread you clearly stated it was arguable about who is the bigger puncher, thus talking in the present tense, not the future tense. Again, you've chosen to make a direct comparison between two fighters so you have to judge Bellew's power on right here, right now, rather than what it would be if he made the adjustments you've identified.

Comparing Paul Smith to Bellew is a poor example because Smigga was never a huge puncher in the amateurs or in the pros.

It was a perfectly valid example because if you reread my point it was clearly in the context of illustrating that what happens in the gym doesn't necessarily translate to 'in the ring' performance, nothing more, nothing less. You chose to support your point by talking about how Bellew's sparring partners rated his power, so I used Smith as an example of where the same comments have been made but the outcome at fight time has been different. Another older example was how the then Brit prospect Tony Collins apparently used to look untouchable in sparring, but never fulfilled that promise in the ring. Do you not accept that there can be a disconnect between gym and ring performance that means any comments from sparring partners etc have to treated with a degree of caution/scepticism?

I've seen enough of Bellew to determine the weight and power of his punches. Anyone can have a dry spell. You will not convince me otherwise.

And there we have the essence of it. You're overwhelmingly focused on Bellew because of your proximity to him, and thus not paying equal attention to Stevenson, which means you're in no position to make a rational call. The fact you're saying that any argument won't convince you otherwise is proof of that inherent bias, hence the resort to describing Bellew's clear inability to a "dry spell", which is bordering on a surreal statement. I'm a huge Carl Froch fan, but even I wouldn't try and resort to claiming he's just experiencing a "dry spell" in terms of KOs at the moment, it's simply that he can't bang guys out at the top level in the way he used to be able to do at British/European level. No shame in that. By the same token, Bellew's had to add more to his game to compensate for the fact that he's not a KO artist at the level he's now fighting.

The bottom line is that if we were in a hypothetical world, where Stevenson was from Birmingham and Bellew was from Canada, and there was a Canadian poster on here trying to argue that Bellew was arguably as big a puncher as Stevenson, you'd be (rightly) laughing them out of the room.

This fight will be closer than some think (though certainly not a 50/50 in my eyes), but that won't be related to a power comparison, that will be down to Bellew's potential ability to box Stevenson and keep him at bay long enough to take him into the later rounds and deeper waters. If Tony opts to 'stand and bang', there's only going to be one outcome, but I don't think he'll be that foolish.

I have no particular bias to Bellew and have been a huge fan of Adonis Stevenson since his debut. I have carefully analysed Adonis' pro career since the beginning and have heralded him as a top prospect on numerous occasions. Your arguments seem to be repetitive and missing the point. You are over-analysing my comment about sparring partners which was not even remotely a strong aspect of my argument. In fact I gave you evidence of relatively big punchers in the amateurs whose timing deteriorated in the professional ranks and later improved (e.g. Junior Witter). You clearly have not fully read my previous post. The key point I shall repeat is as follows:


Judging a fighter's punching power by merely looking at their KO streak is also a flawed method of analysing someone's punching power. It's not too dissimilar to judging who will beat who based on their performances against mutual opponents by looking at their records. Records can be deceptive (i.e. an 8 fight KO streak against come forward fighters with poor defence does not necessary illustrate greater punching power than a fighter with 4 KOs in 8 fights against some awkward fighters for example).

Adonis' last 8 wins (other than Dawson) have generally been against come forward fighters who have been stopped before and/or opponents of a very low standard. Whereas a some of Bellew's last 8 wins have been against more awkward fighters (e.g. Isaac Chilemba, Ajisafe) and included fighters who have never been stopped (Bolonti, Chilemba and Ajisafe). This clearly illustrates that you can not judge a fighter's punching power purely on a 8 fight KO streak. Do I think Bellew would have stopped the vast majority of Stevenson's last 8 opponents? Yes I do (barring Dawson). As I've stated before I think Adonis is the bigger puncher but not by a big margin. Too many people have a habit of judging punching power by looking at records or KO streaks, they can be very deceptive because it depends on the style, durability and standard of the opponent.

A fighter's punching power will always be a subjective matter because records do not show the full truth. Styles make fights. It will always be 'arguable' as to who punches harder than who. Arguably Witter and Brook punch a lot harder than Frankie Gavin despite the latter's superior KO percentage (Gavin's KO percentage is higher than both Brook and Witter's even when they boxed at a lower level).

This is my last response to you on this debate because it is going round in circles. I will politely agree to disagree and will leave it at that.

[The Law]

Judging a fighter's punching power by merely looking at their KO streak is also a flawed method of analysing someone's punching power.

You make it difficult to have a debate.

Based on your own theory, the only way you can prove it one way or another is to borrow that machine from the bloke in Rocky 4 (you know, the one that Ivan Drago punches to test the power) and get both Bellew and Stevenson to take the same test !

Look at my post above, that will clarify my point. Styles make fights and your KO percentage is dependent on the style/durability of the opponents you have faced. One fighter with a 70% KO record may not punch as hard as a fighter with 30% KO record as some of Ovill McKenzie's opponents have found out, for example.

I still think Stevenson punches harder but not by a big margin. A fighter's punching power will always be a subjective matter and no-one's opinion is right or wrong.

[mickey1975]

Britain's manufacturing industry will get a welcome boost when we export our "Smashing Machine" over to Canada

And thousands of Scousers. Don't forget, they always get behind their own, it will be Hatton like...

[bripez]

Don't forget, scousers love their grans like !

[macaca]

Montreal will be full of drunk non English speaking people on the night!

[Deserter]

The key point I shall repeat is as follows:


Judging a fighter's punching power by merely looking at their KO streak is also a flawed method of analysing someone's punching power. It's not too dissimilar to judging who will beat who based on their performances against mutual opponents by looking at their records. Records can be deceptive (i.e. an 8 fight KO streak against come forward fighters with poor defence does not necessary illustrate greater punching power than a fighter with 4 KOs in 8 fights against some awkward fighters for example).

Adonis' last 8 wins (other than Dawson) have generally been against come forward fighters who have been stopped before and/or opponents of a very low standard. Whereas a some of Bellew's last 8 wins have been against more awkward fighters (e.g. Isaac Chilemba, Ajisafe) and included fighters who have never been stopped (Bolonti, Chilemba and Ajisafe). This clearly illustrates that you can not judge a fighter's punching power purely on a 8 fight KO streak. Do I think Bellew would have stopped the vast majority of Stevenson's last 8 opponents? Yes I do (barring Dawson). As I've stated before I think Adonis is the bigger puncher but not by a big margin. Too many people have a habit of judging punching power by looking at records or KO streaks, they can be very deceptive because it depends on the style, durability and standard of the opponent.

A fighter's punching power will always be a subjective matter because records do not show the full truth. Styles make fights. It will always be 'arguable' as to who punches harder than who. Arguably Witter and Brook punch a lot harder than Frankie Gavin despite the latter's superior KO percentage (Gavin's KO percentage is higher than both Brook and Witter's even when they boxed at a lower level).

This is my last response to you on this debate because it is going round in circles. I will politely agree to disagree and will leave it at that.

I agree it's getting repetitive, so will also sign off after this as well, but I was perfectly aware of your points and you continually gloss over mine.
I clearly pointed out that I wasn't judging by a KO streak alone - to suggest so is somewhat patronising and contrary to what I've actually written on this thread. My point is that by any conceivable barometer, whether that is the anecdotal evidence you referenced initially or the footage of the fighters themselves in action, it is utterly conclusive that even when judged in the context of their respective opponents Stevenson is a far more powerful puncher than Bellew at this point in time. You can go on about the reasons for this, such as timing and speed all you want, but the bottom line is that right here, right now, Bellew doesn't compare to Stevenson when judged on this particular metric.

The irony is that by identifying Bellew's current deficiencies in terms of timing, being too tense and having less speed than in the past you've in effect completely undermined your own position as you're admitting yourself that he's not the puncher he either was in the amateurs or could potentially be in the future if he 'fixed' these shortcomings you have chosen to identify yourself.

It is also simply not true that it will always be arguable who punches harder than who - Julian Jackson clearly punched harder than his foes, Pernell Whittaker, by contrast, faced a number of world-class opponents who were harder punchers than him and thus had to rely on his boxing skill - or do you want to make a similarly nonsensical argument that there's a dispute to be had about whether Tito was the bigger puncher of the two?

Law, we can go back and forth on this all you want, but I think the ultimate litmus test is that you'd struggle to find a single credible poster on this forum (or indeed in British boxing in general) to support your initial statement that it was arguable as to who was the bigger puncher of the two. That should tell you something.

[mickey1975]

Montreal will be full of drunk non English speaking people on the night!

Yes, Scousers...

[macaca]

Montreal will be full of drunk non English speaking people on the night!

Yes, Scousers...

Thanks for explaining my joke ...... :)

[chiggsy]

Britain's manufacturing industry will get a welcome boost when we export our "Smashing Machine" over to Canada

And thousands of Scousers. Don't forget, they always get behind their own, it will be Hatton like...

They love their nans...

[palooka]

Britain's manufacturing industry will get a welcome boost when we export our "Smashing Machine" over to Canada

And thousands of Scousers. Don't forget, they always get behind their own, it will be Hatton like...

They love their nans...

calm down, calm down

[Counter-puncher]

Britain's manufacturing industry will get a welcome boost when we export our "Smashing Machine" over to Canada

And thousands of Scousers. Don't forget, they always get behind their own, it will be Hatton like...

They love their nans...

[magnus]

It's a big step up for Bellew but no one should have a problem with a British fighter willing to fight the best out there away from home.

My thoughts exactly.

Yet, should Bellew lose there will be loads of posts moaning about Matchroom "sending him over to get beat" (see Barker/Rees).

Nothing wrong with wanting to fight the best, lose or win.

[lefty]

It's a big step up for Bellew but no one should have a problem with a British fighter willing to fight the best out there away from home.

My thoughts exactly.

Yet, should Bellew lose there will be loads of posts moaning about Matchroom "sending him over to get beat" (see Barker/Rees).

Nothing wrong with wanting to fight the best, lose or win.

You wont have any complaints from me.

[lefty]

Judging a fighter's punching power by merely looking at their KO streak is also a flawed method of analysing someone's punching power.

You make it difficult to have a debate.

Based on your own theory, the only way you can prove it one way or another is to borrow that machine from the bloke in Rocky 4 (you know, the one that Ivan Drago punches to test the power) and get both Bellew and Stevenson to take the same test !

Look at my post above, that will clarify my point. Styles make fights and your KO percentage is dependent on the style/durability of the opponents you have faced. One fighter with a 70% KO record may not punch as hard as a fighter with 30% KO record as some of Ovill McKenzie's opponents have found out, for example.

I still think Stevenson punches harder but not by a big margin. A fighter's punching power will always be a subjective matter and no-one's opinion is right or wrong.

I dont agree with that. You say that Bellew hasnt been knocking guys out as much since being a pro because his timing has been of right? How does that explain fighters like Maidana who get a lot of stoppages? Maidana doesnt have amazing timing by any means but he's naturally heavy handed so it doesnt matter. Even Stevenson himself doesnt have amazing timing and technique but yet knocks most of the people out he beats.

[forcefraser]

Don't forget, scousers love their grans like !

That's the thing that sets scousers apart, THEY CARE.

The rest of us are just hedgehog shat in comparison. Such pride they have. With that excellent sense of humour and not a hint of feeling victimized, the scouser is without doubt the best in Britain.

[chiggsy]

I'm not from liverpool so naturally i was brought up to dispise my grandparents just like everybody else outside the city of liverpool.

[palooka]

I'm not from liverpool so naturally i was brought up to dispise my grandparents just like everybody else outside the city of liverpool.

You don't seem to care about anyone at all

[mickey1975]

I'm not from there either and have never been close to mine.

[palooka]

I'm not from there either and have never been close to mine.

If you moved to Kirkby then you'd have a softer heart

[TheCobra]

Haha comedy thread now, enjoying it!

[macaca]

[hurlock]

If bellew read these posts he'd be massively insulted.he did win 3 abs titles at heavy despite not cutting it at international level due to selection etc. witnessed the kid in the ams & he genuinely bangs naturally but time & time again he loses power boiling down but is still a size at l.heavy.
Bellew has done great to be expieriancing his second world title tilt in such time & he must be proud of the fact.
This fight is similar to fury & haye imo

[lefty]

If bellew read these posts he'd be massively insulted.he did win 3 abs titles at heavy despite not cutting it at international level due to selection etc. witnessed the kid in the ams & he genuinely bangs naturally but time & time again he loses power boiling down but is still a size at l.heavy.
Bellew has done great to be expieriancing his second world title tilt in such time & he must be proud of the fact.
This fight is similar to fury & haye imo

He should go up to cruiserweight then. However he probably wouldnt because he wouldnt be as effective not having a size advantage over his opponents.