top 25 lightweights of all time

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Nov 2005, 02:51

this is very hard to do - SUCH A DEEP DIVISION

just a preliminary list

1. roberto duran
2. joe gans
3. benny leonard
4. henry armstrong
5.. Jack Blackburn
6.. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Pernell Whitaker
8. Ike Williams
9.. Tony Canzoneri
10. Lou Ambers
11. George Kid Lavigne
12. Barney Ross
13. Old Bones Brown
14. Carlos Ortiz
15. Floyd Mayweather
16 Battling Nelson
17 Sammy Mandell
18 Jock Mcaulife
19. oscar de la hoya
20. bob montgomery
21. Beau Jack
22. Alexis Arguello- he didnt fight much at lightweight, he ranks high at super feather
23. hector camacho
24 Sam Angott
25. Frank Erne

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 03 Nov 2005, 05:43

The ratings of Chavez and Arguello does not seem to be in sync...

Arguello dropped down due not fighting much in lightweights while Chavez is at #6. Still, Arguello had more of a resume in division than Chavez ever did. Arguello beat Jim Watt, Mancini, Ganigan, Elizondo, Busceme in title fights plus Boza-Edwards & Jose Luis Ramirez (yes, this was debatable) in no-title gos while Chavez only had 3 fights in division (Rosario, Aquilar, Ramirez). Chavez did unify two titles and was picture-perfect vs. Chapo but still did body of his work in divisions one up and one down.

I would like to see Ken Buchanan in top25 for sure and also think Ismael Laguna would deserve a spot.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 03 Nov 2005, 06:24

I'm a huge Chavez fan he was a modern day throwback to the old timers but he is persistently rated above Whittaker on this site and Pernell by common conscensus should have won their fight. Also at this weight Whittaker was extremely dominant.

Sherlock · Post by **Sherlock** » 03 Nov 2005, 07:33

This list I pretty much agree. Only grievances I have are I'd liked to see Montgomery and Jack top 15, nearing top ten. Maybe that's because I like both of them, but I fee; they earned top 15.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 03 Nov 2005, 15:40

BB, good stuff. It takes a lot of time to come up with these lists. You set yourself up for critique, but you're willing to do the research and put it out there.

In the history of boxing, only the heavyweights and middleweights had more prestige than the lightweights.

My Top 10:
1) Joe Gans
2) Roberto Duran
3) Benny Leonard
4) Ike Williams
5) Henry Armstrong
6) Pernell Whitaker
7) Carlos Ortiz
8) Tony Canzoneri
9) Jack Blackburn
10) Bob Montgomery

My Top 7 is set, and it gets shaky after that.

I think if McAuliffe is mentioned, then Jem Carney should be as well since most newspaper accounts have him beating McAuliffe in their title fight before the crowd stormed the ring. Some of McAuliffe's defenses were also above 135.

The best lightweight to never win the title and HOF, Lew Tendler, definitely deserves Top 20 status. He's better than the Macho Man, Sammy "The Clutch" Angott, Frank Erne, Kid Lavigne, and others.

Also, Packy McFarland fought at lightweight for a while and was undefeated at that weight.

Shane Mosley might deserve a late mention at lightweight for his dominance there.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 03 Nov 2005, 20:01

ive done a lot of research on george kid lavigne and jack blackburn lately and im very impressed with both. u wont see kid lavigne on anyones lists but he deserves it!! he was a very good all round fighter who twice beat HOF joe walcott, the first fight a gruelling 15 rounder with each man dishing out a lot of punishment. he also drew with tough HOF young griffo, he dominated the lightweight division and lost it when past his prime.

lavignes problem was drinking, and he drank a lot and its been said he showed up to some fights drunk.

barry could probably tell u more about lavigne

as for blackburn, i have no doubt he was one of the greatest lightweights ever, he beat great HOF bigger than him and was one of the greatest ring technicians of all time

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 04 Nov 2005, 07:41

As Already stated Arguello should be higher and Chavez is far too high... I also think that Ismal Laguna, Ken Buchanan, and Ad Wogast should all be in this list.....

barry · Post by **barry** » 04 Nov 2005, 13:17

BB--Lavigne was a hell of a fighter in his prime and I think I would list him in a top twenty lightweight list if I ever put one together. One of my favorites of that era!

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 04 Nov 2005, 18:10

Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez and Oscar Delahoya did not had enough fights at lightweight to be considered greats in that division. Nicolino Locche had more fights at 135 than the 3 above combined.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 04 Nov 2005, 18:14

I am recently doing an all time lightweight list.

So far I got:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Ike Williams
5. Joe Brown
6. Pernell Whitaker.

I have printed over 50 fighters that fought in the lightweight division. Sammy Mandell, Rocky Kansas and Jimmy Carter are worth considering

wsbuf · Post by **wsbuf** » 04 Nov 2005, 18:17

LIGHTWEIGHT
1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Tony Canzoneri
4. Joe Gans
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Ike Williams
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Alexis Arguello
9. Pernel Whitaker
10. Lou Ambers
11. Ismael Laguna
12. Sammy Angott
13. Bob Montgomery
14. Ken Buchanan
15. Jimmy Carter
16. Beau Jack
17. Estaban DeJesus
18. Joe Brown
19. Sammy Mandell
20. Rocky Kansas

JC · Post by JC » 04 Nov 2005, 20:55

I think Jackie Kid Berg could be included amongst the great lightweights. He's usually counted as a light wleter but never really weighed more than 135 and holds wins over Tony Canzoneri and Kid Chocolate.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 04 Nov 2005, 22:15

elmersalsa wrote:Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez and Oscar Delahoya did not had enough fights at lightweight to be considered greats in that division. Nicolino Locche had more fights at 135 than the 3 above combined.

Henry Armstrong was under the lightweight limit for some of his welterweight title defenses, including his wipeout victory over Barney Ross. These should be considered when considering Armstrong's lightweight credentials. Besides, how many Top 10 contenders did Locche fight under 135? Sometimes quality trumps quantity.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 04 Nov 2005, 22:21

wsbuf wrote:LIGHTWEIGHT
1. Roberto Duran
2. Benny Leonard
3. Tony Canzoneri
4. Joe Gans
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Ike Williams
7. Carlos Ortiz
8. Alexis Arguello
9. Pernel Whitaker
10. Lou Ambers
11. Ismael Laguna
12. Sammy Angott
13. Bob Montgomery
14. Ken Buchanan
15. Jimmy Carter
16. Beau Jack
17. Estaban DeJesus
18. Joe Brown
19. Sammy Mandell
20. Rocky Kansas

Question: Why do you think Canzoneri was a better lightweight than Gans? Canzoneri fought title fights at bantam and feather as well and then moved up. I'm curious why you rate Canzoneri so highly and I might learn something from your reasons. :)

scartissue · Post by **scartissue** » 05 Nov 2005, 14:47

The early to mid 70s was a renaissance period for the lightweights. Besides Duran I would rate Mando Ramos, Ismael Laguna, Ken Buchanan, Rodolfo Gonzalez and Esteban DeJesus in a top 25 listing of 135 lbers. The depth of the division back then has yet to be surpassed IMO.

Scartissue

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Nov 2005, 14:03

dnahar32 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez and Oscar Delahoya did not had enough fights at lightweight to be considered greats in that division. Nicolino Locche had more fights at 135 than the 3 above combined.
Henry Armstrong was under the lightweight limit for some of his welterweight title defenses, including his wipeout victory over Barney Ross. These should be considered when considering Armstrong's lightweight credentials. Besides, how many Top 10 contenders did Locche fight under 135? Sometimes quality trumps quantity.

Armstrong was not even a true lightweight either. He was more of a featherweight. And his fights at 147 were more renown that those fights at 135. He only fought 16 times at the lightweight limit. At featherweight, Henry fought over 50 bouts. At welterweight, Armstrong did more fights and more HISTORY at that weight than at 135. Check the record books.

Locche was the South American Lightweight Champion and fought Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz. Still, Locche to me does not rank at the best 25 lightweights ever.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Nov 2005, 14:16

Decagon wrote:Why do you always write in those big, gay letters? Are you trying to seem important?

That does not have nothing to do with you or anybody else in this forum, sir.

What are you trying to say??? That I am gay??? Writing big is my problem, NOT yours.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 07 Nov 2005, 14:28

elmersalsa wrote:
dnahar32 wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:Henry Armstrong, Julio Cesar Chavez and Oscar Delahoya did not had enough fights at lightweight to be considered greats in that division. Nicolino Locche had more fights at 135 than the 3 above combined.
Henry Armstrong was under the lightweight limit for some of his welterweight title defenses, including his wipeout victory over Barney Ross. These should be considered when considering Armstrong's lightweight credentials. Besides, how many Top 10 contenders did Locche fight under 135? Sometimes quality trumps quantity.
Armstrong was not even a true lightweight either. He was more of a featherweight. And his fights at 147 were more renown that those fights at 135. He only fought 16 times at the lightweight limit. At featherweight, Henry fought over 50 bouts. At welterweight, Armstrong did more fights and more HISTORY at that weight than at 135. Check the record books.

Locche was the South American Lightweight Champion and fought Ismael Laguna and Carlos Ortiz. Still, Locche to me does not rank at the best 25 lightweights ever.

Elmersalsa, you have to look at quality over quantity. While Armstrong might have fought at feather more, that was early in his career where he was developing as a fighter. He only fought Sarron for the title, and he had more lightweight title bouts plus bouts at welterweight under the lightweight limit. Or do you really consider a 133 1/2 pound Armstrong (when he beat Ross) a welterweight? I would in fact say that lightweight was Armstrong's natural weight and that he would have stayed there had he not lost to Ambers. The lightweight title was more important at the time than the welterweight title and there was more talent in the lightweight division as well. The only reason Armstrong has all the welterweight defenses is because there was no such thing as an over-the-weight fight for him at welterweight!

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 Nov 2005, 20:26

Decagon wrote:Look, if you need reading glasses, get them, or adjust the way your browser views this forum. Your big letters are annoying, and they make you look like an attention-starved teenager who thinks he's clever by doing something other than writing in all caps. Just set your font size to normal, you idiot.

It seems that it bothers you, and you only, sir. I am not going to fall in insults here... I have proven that I got more class than this moron.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 15 Nov 2005, 10:33

So far now at lightweight I got:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Ike Williams
5. Joe Brown
6. Carlos Ortiz
7. Pernell Whitaker

I am doing research over 50 lightweights greats. I found out that Ken Buchanan at lightweight, was better than Julio Cesar Chavez.

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 16 Nov 2005, 01:55

I can't see rating Whitaker so highly at 135; I will not argue that he frustrated his opponents and hardly ever lost a round and so on and so forth. He was a very difficult fighter to hit cleanly or often and he made monkies of every fighter that he could coerce into playing with him by his rules. He and Rosario would've been a very intriguing fight to watch and I'd like to have seen him fight Pendelton again a few years later, or Paez not get cut so early.
The reason I cannot make myself put Whitaker in my top ten Lws (probably not top 15 either, maybe not top 20) is very simple: I don't believe that he had the punching skills to compete with the very best, especially not on a regular basis. He didn't punch enough. I'm not referring to power here, precisely.
What I'm getting at is that he landed too many slapping punches, too many "look I hit him he missed me" amateur style punches and his offense and defense were not a smooth thing in my eyes, like it was with Napoles or Ricardo Lopez. Only once or twice can I recall seeing him punch purposefully, like he meant to do something with each punch; mostly it was almost like tag with gloves. I cannot see him defeating an Ike Williams or Montgomery for example fighting in the manner he chose to fight with.

top 25 lightweights of all time

top 25 lightweights of all time

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Top 25 lightweights