Sonny Liston vs Joe Frazier 1969. What If?

[KOJOE90]

I have heard that there were serious talks about this fight happening in 1969 but for what ever reason it didn't happen and then Liston fought Leotis Martin and got KO'd in 9.

I have heard many people say that stylewise Liston was all wrong for Frazier and prime vs prime Liston stops Frazier, but what do you think would have happened if the old 1969 version of Liston fought the young 1969 version of Joe Frazier?

Sonny Liston.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009031

Joe Frazier.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000147

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Frazier crushes him in about 8.

By 1969, Liston was old & slow & if Leotis Martin could spark him out in '69, then Frazier's murderous hooks would have done the same too.

[Rory McCloskey]

i think frazier is to good of a BOXER for liston. liston was based on strength and frazier had both strength and loads of talent. i think frazier ctaches him with the right late in the fight. 10-12 round. i think it only last so long because liston was hard to take down.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

In theory a peak Liston could have done the same to Frazier as Foreman did to him

totally disagree different styles. and frazier was past his best when foreman beat him

[KOJOE90]

I more or less agree with you guys in that by 1969 the faiding Liston although still a dangerous operator would stuggle to keep the young, snarling, grunting, left-hooking machine Frazier off him. Frazier TKO8.

At this stage in his career Listons best chance I feel would be to jump on Frazier early, fast and hard. Frazier was always a bit of a slow starter and Liston still had some power in those huge fists of his.

Oscar Bonavena hurt and dropped a young frazier early and even an old Liston was a better finisher than Ringo. Just a thought.

[Ambling Alp]

I guess I agree pretty much with everyone on this one. Frazier may struggle early, but he should be able to stop Liston in 6 or 7 rounds. If this fight took place a year or 2 earlier, it would have been more interesting. Liston would have had a little more left and Frazier wouldn't have quite reached his peak.

[dempseyfire]

In their primes I see Liston as being one of the few who could beat a prime Frazier.

However in 1969 age had taken its toll and he was slower and his once rock hard body was getting soft from age and substance abuse.

He could probably rock Frazier early and possible drop him but Joe would get up and wear Sonny down and KO him with a left hook around the 7th

[BoxBuzz]

Just be careful if your using the Martin fight to qualify this. I think this was a fluke for several reasons. However I'm in agreement that you have to favor Frazier in 69.

[the8thround]

In '69 i give my point to Joe...
But a prime Frazier on a prime Sonny, could not have a chance.Sonny was too powerfull...

[KOJOE90]

Just be careful if your using the Martin fight to qualify this. I think this was a fluke for several reasons.

Could you explain further? I would be interested to hear your opinions.

[Arsenal]

In their prime, Liston within 3 rounds. Very similar to Foreman and look what he done to Frazier. Liston was a monster in his day which makes the Ali victory over him all the more special. Ali wasn't given a hope in hell but he won. Although Liston's links to the Mafia may have affected both fights. I have spoken to older people who saw the fighters at the time and all of them say there was no way Ali could have won them fights and that Liston took a dive. Who knows.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

In their prime, Liston within 3 rounds. Very similar to Foreman and look what he done to Frazier. Liston was a monster in his day which makes the Ali victory over him all the more special. Ali wasn't given a hope in hell but he won. Although Liston's links to the Mafia may have affected both fights. I have spoken to older people who saw the fighters at the time and all of them say there was no way Ali could have won them fights and that Liston took a dive. Who knows.

foreeman beat an overweight past his prime fraizer, though i think the samme result would have happened to a peak frazier.


liston and foreman are completey different styles, so u cant use foreman-frazier as an arguement.


if ur basing it on size, liston was only 1 " taller and 10lbs heavier.

liston was beaten and knocked down by 180lb marshall.




prime for prime, i see liston stopping frazier, because he will work frazier with his jab and when fraizer came in liston would win the slug out. bu i can see thi match going the distance, and if it does it will be a very close fight with frazier taking it to liston in the late rounds!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

In their prime, Liston within 3 rounds. Very similar to Foreman and look what he done to Frazier. Liston was a monster in his day which makes the Ali victory over him all the more special. Ali wasn't given a hope in hell but he won. Although Liston's links to the Mafia may have affected both fights. I have spoken to older people who saw the fighters at the time and all of them say there was no way Ali could have won them fights and that Liston took a dive. Who knows.

foreeman beat an overweight past his prime fraizer, though i think the samme result would have happened to a peak frazier.


liston and foreman are completey different styles, so u cant use foreman-frazier as an arguement.


if ur basing it on size, liston was only 1 " taller and 10lbs heavier.

liston was beaten and knocked down by 180lb marshall.




prime for prime, i dont know who would win but it would be interesting, one thing to listons advantage is frazier always came in and always moved his head the same way. if frazier tries to slug it out, it could spell trouble for him

[Arsenal]

Are you serious? Please tell me you are joking? Frazier was 29, had only been boxing 7 years and was undefeated when Foreman beat him. He had just beaten Ali! You haven't got a clue mate! When I said similar I meant in what they would do to Frazier. You even said the same????

[bill.lockhart]

Sonny will be mine in 1969

Tailor made as Frazier was for Liston. (You don't walk into Sonny Liston)
by 1969 Frazier would have worn him down. It still would have been a hell of a fight though. Frazier would have the heart to survive the early bombardment & would stop Liston inside 10 heats. You can't beat father time .
Prime on prime Sonny would win. Better boxer, slightly more power.
Joe would find that 84" reach impossible to deal with. Sonny in 5

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Are you serious? Please tell me you are joking? Frazier was 29, had only been boxing 7 years and was undefeated when Foreman beat him. He had just beaten Ali! You haven't got a clue mate! When I said similar I meant in what they would do to Frazier. You even said the same????

check the facts, frazier was 10lbs over his fighting weight and wasnt as fast or as mobile as he had once been. he was blubbery 215lb, not the peak hard 204lbs. he had lackluster preformances against stander and daniels leading up to the fight and i dont even think knocked either down.


frazier was not the same fighter after ali, use the weight gain and film as an example.

[bill.lockhart]

You're right Blockbuster.
Frazier was absolutely formidable at 205 in 1971.
He was born in January 1944, which would make him 27 at the time of Ali- Frazier 1. I think that fight took a lot out of Joe & he elected to take some time off & was never as sleek again for the balance of his career.
I suppose he felt he didn't need to be in such great condition for Daniels & Stander. It caught up to him though. He would have fared better against Foreman if he could have maintained his former weight.
I have never understood why some lighter heayweights try to put on some extra weight when facing heavier guys. All it does is slow them down. Your best weight is what it is. Maintain it reguardless of who the opponet is.

[KOJOE90]

frazier was not the same fighter after ali, use the weight gain and film as an example.

Some more views on this here.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25869

[Arsenal]

'I have never understood why some lighter heayweights try to put on some extra weight when facing heavier guys. All it does is slow them down. Your best weight is what it is. Maintain it reguardless of who the opponet is.[/quote]'

Totally agree. Lennox Lewis was 7 pound heavier in the first fight against Rahman adding to view he took it lightly and against Klitschko when he looked sluggish. I know he tried to bulk up because Klitchsko was bigger but he done in in a very short space of time. A lighter Lewis would have been much better against Klitchsko