Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[p4p1]

From Jimmy Cannon,

Thad Spencer defeated Ernie Terrell far more impressively than Cassius Clay did.

Cassius couldn't put Ernie down. Though he won easily over the 6' 6" elongated
telephone pole, Clay was forced to go 15-Rounds, and was never close to
dropping him.

On the other hand, Thad put Ernie down with the first punch he landed, and had
him hurt several times during the bout. In Round 12, Thad had Ernie dangling
and ready to go. If there had been a Round 13, Ernie would have never finished
the Round.

For those who say Cassius Clay is the best, I say the you're blind. It's easy to
look great when you fight mediocrity.

If only Ali had of beaten some HOF caliber fighters then he would have a real legacy.

[dberry]

Ali certainly hit his peak. He can only be as good as his years in boxing can allow him and he was at his best for most of them. As for the arguement that he didn't fight any hqall Of Famers or whatever, well eras make fighters just as much as fighters make eras, and even though some of Ali's best opponents got slaughtered by George Foreman, and Ali beat soundly George in George's prime, we all know that styles make fights and that those defeats and wins don't add to anything when all is anylised. I don't believe it was the best modern era of heavyweights, I believe that belonged to the late eighties-mid nineties, but it was close, and far from sparce.

[BoxBuzz]

From Jimmy Cannon,

Thad Spencer defeated Ernie Terrell far more impressively than Cassius Clay did.

Cassius couldn't put Ernie down. Though he won easily over the 6' 6" elongated
telephone pole, Clay was forced to go 15-Rounds, and was never close to
dropping him.

On the other hand, Thad put Ernie down with the first punch he landed, and had
him hurt several times during the bout. In Round 12, Thad had Ernie dangling
and ready to go. If there had been a Round 13, Ernie would have never finished
the Round.

For those who say Cassius Clay is the best, I say the you're blind. It's easy to
look great when you fight mediocrity.

Another interesting aspect is to watch body language and facial expressions during fights. Watch the first Liston Clay fight, allow your eyes to veer off the boxing action and look at these men as they assess the opponent in front of them, cue in on the faces of both fighters. You will see a supremely confident Liston wilt over the course of the fight. He came in a monster, and left an old beaten man.

The Terrell fight is another case study. Ali appeared to want to take his time in front of the cameral and humiliate his opponent, and he seemed to have a streak of Monzon in him that night. Simply enjoying giving someone a beating. I saw a man with no intention of anesthetizing his victim. He did have mean streak on occasion.

Duce, no disrespect, but you do seem to be completely driven by the stats and what you consider to be the objective info. Boxing has some other interesting dynamics as well. And when both are taken into consideration the whole picture comes into focus.

To say that Ali did not fight top shelf opposition.....well that's a clear indication of denial of the objective data available. Not typical for you. But reveals that you do have some bias in your evals and assessments.

By the way, by picking the Cannon review, you seemed to pass over some of the other opinions that the fight was a bit sadistic.

It was a wonderful demonstration of boxing skill and a barbarous display of cruelty.

Also, you left out Ali's own words before the fight. Do you think by saying what I have included below he was giving himself an excuse in advance for not knocking out his man, because he knew he could never accomplish such a feat, and it just happened that the fight itself was so lopsided? I suppose you can not rule out this possibility.

"I want to torture him," Ali said two days before the fight. "I want to give him the Patterson humiliation and punish him. A clean knockout is too good for him."

[Ambling Alp II]

Chronologically, Ali was closer to his prime in 1971 than the later 2 fights. However, he was a better fighter in 1974 and 1975 than he was in 1971. He had to get rid of 3 and a half years of ring rust. It takes more than 2 fights to do that.

Think of Jordan when he came back. He was out of the NBA for about 1 and 3/4 seasons. He came back towards the end of the 1994-1995 season. He was very rusty. He clearly was not the same player.

However, the next year, he preseason games and the 82 game season to get rid of some the ring rust. While he was not as good as he was in prime, he was a much better player than he had been when he first came back.

Don't agree that the first fight was more important. If Frazier would have won the 2nd or 3rd fight, his and Ali's legacy would have changed significantly.

Those fights were much more fair. Ali was not rusty. Ali was older and had taken more punishment so the past his prime excuse for Frazier doesn't fly.[/quote]

yancy said"Don't agree that the first fight was more important." AAII

This statement is absolutely absurd.

Disqualifies anything else you have to say on this subject, to my way of thinking.[/quote]

Ambling Alp II"Of course it's not absurd. I have stated why the first fight was not more important. You are just saying it's more important because it's the only one that your guy won.
Your way of thinking amounts to you like Frazier and have an unhealthy obsession with hating Ali."

[BoxBuzz]

by the way Mildenburger was a southpaw....might have been a genuinely annoying fight for Ali. Pesky bothersome, and flat out irritating lol. But tougher than having your arse practically handed to you at or near your best? Cmon.

[Ambling Alp II]

From Jimmy Cannon,

Thad Spencer defeated Ernie Terrell far more impressively than Cassius Clay did.

Cassius couldn't put Ernie down. Though he won easily over the 6' 6" elongated
telephone pole, Clay was forced to go 15-Rounds, and was never close to
dropping him.

On the other hand, Thad put Ernie down with the first punch he landed, and had
him hurt several times during the bout. In Round 12, Thad had Ernie dangling
and ready to go. If there had been a Round 13, Ernie would have never finished
the Round.

For those who say Cassius Clay is the best, I say the you're blind. It's easy to
look great when you fight mediocrity.

Factually incorrect that Spencer knocked Terrell down with the first punch he hit him with. Simply not true.
Ali fight with Terrell was less competitive than Spencer's.

Ali fought mediocrity? Seriously? Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson were mediocre? Stupid, ignorant statement.

[BoxBuzz]

It's an opinion Alp. No need to get over the top.

Hmm so with Spencer...it wasn't just "Bang,Down,Owned?"

[hhaehre]

We can argue all we want about Ali and Frazier but ultimately it come down to this: Frazier only won once and Ali won twice.

That's true of course. It is also true that Frazier won the big one where both fighter were closest to their primes. Joe won the one that mattered the most.

Chronologically, Ali was closer to his prime in 1971 than the later 2 fights. However, he was a better fighter in 1974 and 1975 than he was in 1971. He had to get rid of 3 and a half years of ring rust. It takes more than 2 fights to do that.

Think of Jordan when he came back. He was out of the NBA for about 1 and 3/4 seasons. He came back towards the end of the 1994-1995 season. He was very rusty. He clearly was not the same player.

However, the next year, he preseason games and the 82 game season to get rid of some the ring rust. While he was not as good as he was in prime, he was a much better player than he had been when he first came back.

Don't agree that the first fight was more important. If Frazier would have won the 2nd or 3rd fight, his and Ali's legacy would have changed significantly.

Those fights were much more fair. Ali was not rusty. Ali was older and had taken more punishment so the past his prime excuse for Frazier doesn't fly.

I guess you could argue that he was that he was better in 72/73 but wait, he lost to Norton in 73 so I guess we have to say 74/75 then. And of course a fight for the undisputed heavyweight title between two undefeated champions both regarded as atg can hardly be the most important fight of the series. After all the wrong man won and we have to take that into consideration. How can you possibly claim that FOTC was not the biggest fight of the trilogy?

[Giancarlo]

Your way of thinking amounts to you like Frazier and have an unhealthy obsession with hating Ali.

I think it might be sexual with Nancy.

Freud would have had a field day with her.

[BoxBuzz]

I just don't understand why it does not qualify as "it is what it is".

1 guy wins da foist fight, de udder guy comes back and wins da second, and in the thoid and final go 'round da one guy who wun da second fight comes back and finishes off da udder guy. So da guy who finishes big sorta kinda wins da big prize.

[gilgamesh]

I just don't understand why it does not qualify as "it is what it is".
1 guy wins da foist fight, de udder guy comes back and wins da second, and in the thoid and final go 'round da one guy who wun da second fight comes back and finishes off da udder guy. So da guy who finishes big sorta kinda wins da big prize.

It does to me. From a fan standpoint I'm a bigger fan of Joe Frazier because he's the more entertaining of the two to watch to me and he's just my kinda fighter, but I wouldn't argue that Ali got the better of their trilogy and was therefore the better fighter of the two.

Not to mention the fact that he knocked out Foreman, who knocked out Frazier twice.

[Ezzard]

Seem to remember getting shouted down for saying Hearns-Leonard II was just as relevant as the first fight.

There's no doubt that the mythical "never in his prime" has taken on Tyson-like proportions. It was Ali's choice. Just like it was Tyson's choice to assault a woman. Or Duran's choice to not train and eat too much...ditto Toney...

BUT, c'mon... Ali was as good as it gets. Maybe he wasn't blind against Liston. Maybe he was glassy-eyed versus Cooper. Maybe he could have lost all 3 to Norton... So what?

None of it would make a single iota of difference. He'd still be #1 in the division. Or maybe #2 for some.

[hhaehre]

BUT, c'mon... Ali was as good as it gets. Maybe he wasn't blind against Liston. Maybe he was glassy-eyed versus Cooper. Maybe he could have lost all 3 to Norton... So what?

None of it would make a single iota of difference. He'd still be #1 in the division. Or maybe #2 for some.

I rate Ali as #2 in the division but I still think Frazier beats him prime vs. prime. I don't see why those are mutually exclusive.

[The Great John L]

BUT, c'mon... Ali was as good as it gets. Maybe he wasn't blind against Liston. Maybe he was glassy-eyed versus Cooper. Maybe he could have lost all 3 to Norton... So what?

None of it would make a single iota of difference. He'd still be #1 in the division. Or maybe #2 for some.

I rate Ali as #2 in the division but I still think Frazier beats him prime vs. prime. I don't see why those are mutually exclusive.

They aren't. I have it Ali, Louis and then everyone else. That doesn't mean that there aren't some in the "everyone else" grouping who wouldn't have beaten a prime Louis or Ali. Jimmy Young beat Foreman when they were both at or near their resecptive best, but I've got George higher in my list.

Styles matter.

[The Great John L]

The more you look at it......

Cassius Clay's 'first reign' was really not that impressive.

The most glowing item about that first reign, was that he stayed busy {active},
but some of the Challengers..........

Yeah, I guess beating Liston and Patterson isn't much of an accomplishment. It's not like those guys ever really accomplished much.

[The Great John L]

C'mon,

In February 1964 Sonny was a 'financial wreck' at the time, and Cassius wasn't all that good in that fight.

The 'smell' after that fight floated in the air all over the World........

That bad smell was actually topped by the 'stink' in Lewiston, Maine 'fiasco' in May 1965.

Floyd had a 'severely damaged back' entering that bout in Las Vegas, and he had been
bombed to the canvas several times in sparring sessions with 'King' Jimmy Fletcher
in November 1965.

Still, it took a Referee to halt that bout with Floyd still on his feet.

Yea, so impressive..........

Oh, I forgot this is Boxrec. If you don't like the result, just makeup excuses.

[Ezzard]

BUT, c'mon... Ali was as good as it gets. Maybe he wasn't blind against Liston. Maybe he was glassy-eyed versus Cooper. Maybe he could have lost all 3 to Norton... So what?

None of it would make a single iota of difference. He'd still be #1 in the division. Or maybe #2 for some.

I rate Ali as #2 in the division but I still think Frazier beats him prime vs. prime. I don't see why those are mutually exclusive.

I agree.

[Ezzard]

What works for Ali is that he beat 2 great fighters in Foreman and Liston…both were overrated going into the fights…and both were perfect for a guy with a granite chin, a great defence and accurate punching…

Maybe if Ali-Liston II had not been postponed we’d have seen Ali stretched a little more.

I think its unfair to criticise Ali’s 1960s reign. He beat just about everyone. It’s not like there was a boxer out there he missed.

[The Great John L]

What works for Ali is that he beat 2 great fighters in Foreman and Liston…both were overrated going into the fights…and both were perfect for a guy with a granite chin, a great defence and accurate punching…

Maybe if Ali-Liston II had not been postponed we’d have seen Ali stretched a little more.

I think its unfair to criticise Ali’s 1960s reign. He beat just about everyone. It’s not like there was a boxer out there he missed.

x2

[yancey]

BUT, c'mon... Ali was as good as it gets. Maybe he wasn't blind against Liston. Maybe he was glassy-eyed versus Cooper. Maybe he could have lost all 3 to Norton... So what?

None of it would make a single iota of difference. He'd still be #1 in the division. Or maybe #2 for some.

I rate Ali as #2 in the division but I still think Frazier beats him prime vs. prime. I don't see why those are mutually exclusive.

I agree.

x2

I must be a "hater."

[yancey]

C'mon,

In February 1964 Sonny was a 'financial wreck' at the time, and Cassius wasn't all that good in that fight.

The 'smell' after that fight floated in the air all over the World........

That bad smell was actually topped by the 'stink' in Lewiston, Maine 'fiasco' in May 1965.

Floyd had a 'severely damaged back' entering that bout in Las Vegas, and he had been
bombed to the canvas several times in sparring sessions with 'King' Jimmy Fletcher
in November 1965.

Floyd's back was so bad, he couldn't fight for 6-Months prior to the November 22, 1965
bout with Cassius, and then required nearly 10-Months rest before re-entering the Ring
back in October 1966 with Henry Cooper.

Still, it took a Referee to halt that bout with Floyd still on his feet.

Yea, so impressive..........

Once again, Duce is right on the money here.

Both Liston fights stunk, with the mega-stench from the Lewiston fight still sending people up in Maine to the hospital to this day.

In fact, the D.O.D. looked into canning the stench to be used as a weapon of war.

Patterson had terrible back problems in the first Ali fight. Trainer Al Silvani lifted Floyd up and down between rounds trying to alleviate the problem.

Not saying Floyd beats Ali, but the truth is the truth.

[Giancarlo]

Oh, I forgot this is Boxrec. If you don't like the result, just makeup excuses.

Very true.

[BoxBuzz]

Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

And even those were paid for "Carnera Style". He was no better than Joe the Plumber at the game of boxing. Why wasn't he exposed for what he was? The truth is out there! Let's not forget that he was beaten by a blind Joe Frazier in their first fight. Joe was only a shadow of what he was in his previous fight, he had nothing left, AND he was still able to get the win from the hapless Ali. Few people know that Frazier took almost everything out of Foreman, Foreman broke all the bones in his arm when he demolished Frazier in their first go round, thus making it easy for Ali to slip by him in their fight. The ONLY genuine fights Ali ever had was with Berbick, Spinks I, Norton I, and with Larry Holmes. And to be honest, Holmes was only a shell of his former self after his close win, but complete thrashing at the hands of Norton. His other two "wins" over Frazier? Two words for you..."Blind" and "Blinder".

Don't even get me started with the circus shows of Lyle, Shavers, Bonavena, and any other so called "W" he has on his record. Doug Jones beat the bejabbers out of him, and Cooper knocked him out....if you don't count the 1/2 hour break they gave Ali to get back into the game.


That gold medal that he "threw in the river"?......You know why no one's ever seen it since? Because it never existed! The whole Olympics thing was a work of fiction created by Elvis, in conjunction with Space Aliens. Just play the third cut of the second side of Abby Road backwards it spells all of this out. (For even more of an eerie experience just play the White Album while watching the movie "When we were Kings" It explains detail for detail just how they got away with creating the entire work of fiction.

[yancey]

Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.

[hhaehre]

Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.

Not really and God knows I'm no great Ali apologetic.