Angelo Dundee discussed Ali vs. Lennox Lewis

[elmersalsa]

Any good heavyweight with excellent boxing skills, beats Lennox Lewis. Lewis footwork was horrible. He had a great jab and used his reach very well, but, speed by speed, movement by movement, punch for punch, chin for chin, he had nothing on the great Muhammad Ali.

[montrealsuper]

Any good heavyweight with excellent boxing skills, beats Lennox Lewis. Lewis footwork was horrible. He had a great jab and used his reach very well, but, speed by speed, movement by movement, punch for punch, chin for chin, he had nothing on the great Muhammad Ali.

"Footwork was horrible" GO watch the Tua fight, and watch the matador tame the bull and make it look easy. Go watch the Tyson fight, the Rahman rematch, the Morrison clinic, the Ruddock devastation. Lewis had superb footwork. Lewis was a wonderful fighter, and absolutely as he self proclaimed, "a pugilist specialist."

Of the highest order.

Ali would have had a bitter struggle trying to outduel Lennox Lewis. No ifs ands or buts about it.

[montrealsuper]

I read in the Lewis-Tyson Heavyweight Armaggedon Book Lewis is a fine overall athlete who excelled in American football as a running back in school, tennis, basketball, soccer - all sports that require very good footwork.

[loaded_gloves]

Based on Cooper fight, quite obviously. Had he been with someone who was a better fighter than Cooper (who may have been good for Great Britain, but at world level he was absolutely mediocre), and had it been near the start of the round or the middle, he would have no chance to survive, the way he looked so bewildered, clearly showed that.

And yet he came back to slice him to pieces the very next round. Every thing you write here is pure conjecture. He got up to beat the count and walked straight to his corner. He was hardly as gone as you claim. Gone is Lennox Lewis resting on the ref with his legs dancing after McCall, or being held up by his team after Rahman. That's 'gone'.

The man wanted to quit vs Liston, which shows he wasn't that tough mentally either.

The man had been blinded. Would you go out to face Sonny Liston blind?

To call Ali 'not tough mentally' for not wanting to go out and face Liston blind, even though he did go out and do it anyway, and given the man's entire career, is trolling of the lowest, most infantile order.

[Senya13]

When a boxer has that glassy look in his eyes, that means he's not ok, he is not fully aware or where he is and what's going on, and hardly able to protect himself.

Was there an oculist at ringside, who confirmed that Clay couldn't see? He certainly didn't look like a blind man to me the way he evaded Liston's punches. Just because Ali's mythology is saying this, doesn't mean that's what happened.

[loaded_gloves]

Did Clay have 'that glassy look' in his eyes?

Do you have a colour HD copy of Clay/Cooper the world hasn't yet seen?

As far as Ali's blindness for Liston, we don't need an 'ocultist', or even an optician, Ali is right there on tape complaining about it. Dundee wipes water in his eyes and shoves him out there. Maybe the whole thing was planned beforehand to add to 'The Ali Myth' the whole team were planning on structuring over the brief course of seventeen years.

You seem to be desperately pulling at straws in order to denigrate an undeniably great fighter.

What a poor sport and very odd boxing fan you are.

[Senya13]

Clay had that glassy look for some time, even when he was sitting in his corner.

Ali may complain about whatever he wants, the fact is if he were blind, it's be quite noticeable, he'd be getting hit by pretty much any punch Liston threw, and he'd be groping around and walking slowly and cautiously, rather than dancing around the same way he had been doing for rounds prior to that. This is not a cheap Shaolin or ninja movie, where they could fight blindfolded. The area around Clay's eyes might have been itching, who knows, but he wasn't blind by any means. And anyway, in the old times, a lot of fighters were begging their seconds and referee not to stop the fight, when both of their eyes were closed because of punishment, or blood was pouring over them in streams, etc.

I find it odd how people are trying to find excuses for every thing that may just very slightly diminish Ali's undeniable greatness, like he'd become a mere third-rather if they admitted he had flaws too.

[man]

IMHO an extremely interesting matchup. i would
see two versions of interest:

the lennox of the golota bout. very lean, confident,
precise in his attack. of course that was an easy night
for him but it illustrated his strengths best.

for ali i would see two versions. the dancer and
the flat foot endurer. i see the dancer winning an easy
decision against lennox, simply because lewis would
not be able to hit him. the dancing ali was next to
impossible to jab, thus taking away one of lennox'
biggest assets. and if the jab doesn't get in the right
hand won't either. ali not only had fast feet, he had
stunning reflexes and could read his opponent really
well, anticipating what was to come.

the lean lennox version versus ali of zaire or manila
would do way better. i don't see him get a knock out,
since ali, unless faded to a ridiculous level, cannot be
knocked out. but lennox could score a close decision.

now way lennox ever wins clear, much room for him
being beaten clear.

[man]

i could imagine flat foot ali versus lennox could feel
like ali vs norton.

[loaded_gloves]

I think Norton worked at an aggressive, consistent pace that Lennox couldn't match. Lennox liked to box at his own big man's pace and pick his shots, he didn't like it all versus Mercer and Mavrovic.

[SamWise72]

Cooper, Folley quick hands? Not to mention both were journeymen, basically, and had nowhere near Lewis' punching power or accuracy.

Journeymen? Wow. If the current weight divisions existed, and all the alphabet titles, at that time, Folley would have owned an alphabet title and Cooper would have likely been cruiser champ. It's as though you're saying that not either being "The Champ" or pushing one close made you a journeyman. Folley was 74-7 at the time he fought Ali, and was a genuine contender. He wasn't Foreman, Frazier or Liston, but to call him a journeyman is to denigrate an excellent fighter, and an unworthy statement.

[The Great John L]

I think Norton worked at an aggressive, consistent pace that Lennox couldn't match. Lennox liked to box at his own big man's pace and pick his shots, he didn't like it all versus Mercer and Mavrovic.

Except that Norton was a sucker for a straight right and probably wouldn't have made it past 2 or 3 rounds against Lewis.

[SamWise72]

I don't think he's saying that Norton would beat Lennox, he's saying that what made Norton successful against Ali, his workrate, Lewis wouldn't be able to match, so it would be a very different fight.

[Senya13]

What were Folley's 3 best wins during 5 years preceding the bout with Ali? Over I-will-lose-even-to-third-rate-heavyweights Foster? Or over I-am-a-pro-for-13-months-already Bonavena? Maybe over I-have-a-solid-chin-and-need-nothing-else Chuvalo?

As for Cooper... He was a local champ in a continent where at the time top heavyweights were worse than even today heavyweight's second-raters. I'd give Audley Harrison a good chance to win European title during that time, it was that bad.

[loaded_gloves]

I don't think he's saying that Norton would beat Lennox, he's saying that what made Norton successful against Ali, his workrate, Lewis wouldn't be able to match, so it would be a very different fight.

Exactly.

I didn't think Norton's success against Ali was a safe comparison for Lewis as Norton employed an aggression and workrate Lewis did not like.

[loaded_gloves]

What were Folley's 3 best wins during 5 years preceding the bout with Ali? Over I-will-lose-even-to-third-rate-heavyweights Foster? Or over I-am-a-pro-for-13-months-already Bonavena? Maybe over I-have-a-solid-chin-and-need-nothing-else Chuvalo?

As for Cooper... He was a local champ in a continent where at the time top heavyweights were worse than even today heavyweight's second-raters. I'd give Audley Harrison a good chance to win European title during that time, it was that bad.

Senya... Who exactly do you like?

Serious question, I'm intrigued as to which boxers you admire and do impress you?

[Senya13]

Joe Gans, Packey McFarland, Ted Kid Lewis, Benny Leonard, to name a few.

[elmersalsa]

Any good heavyweight with excellent boxing skills, beats Lennox Lewis. Lewis footwork was horrible. He had a great jab and used his reach very well, but, speed by speed, movement by movement, punch for punch, chin for chin, he had nothing on the great Muhammad Ali.

"Footwork was horrible" GO watch the Tua fight, and watch the matador tame the bull and make it look easy. Go watch the Tyson fight, the Rahman rematch, the Morrison clinic, the Ruddock devastation. Lewis had superb footwork. Lewis was a wonderful fighter, and absolutely as he self proclaimed, "a pugilist specialist."

Of the highest order.

Ali would have had a bitter struggle trying to outduel Lennox Lewis. No ifs ands or buts about it.

Well, that is your opinion. I see it Ali winning big otherwise. No way a boxer like Lewis beats Ali. No way.

[man]

I think Norton worked at an aggressive, consistent pace that Lennox couldn't match. Lennox liked to box at his own big man's pace and pick his shots, he didn't like it all versus Mercer and Mavrovic.

maybe my comparison was a bad one in terms of style. but
what i meant was that flat food ali became a hitable target
and a great athlete who had his act together (unlike foreman)
would make him trouble. so while i think early ali would have
no problem with lennox, his late version would be in as difficult
a situation as he was with norton. close and controversial fight.

i would never see lennox being able to dominate ali.

[yancey]

"Just because Ali's mythology is saying this, doesn't mean that's what happened." Senya

Careful Senya, panties get bunched up mighty quick around here when you point out the truth.

[dempseyfire]

I think Norton worked at an aggressive, consistent pace that Lennox couldn't match. Lennox liked to box at his own big man's pace and pick his shots, he didn't like it all versus Mercer and Mavrovic.

X2. Norton's style was completely different from Lewis and his work-rate and stamina were far superior to anything Lewis ever showed in his career.

And I'd pick Norton to beat Lennox too. Lewis would have maybe a 40/60 chance in the first two rounds to catch Ken with something big early on and take him out, but I see it more likely that Norton out-jabs Lewis while avoiding any massive punches, and then wears down and outworks Lewis in the later rounds to take a decision.

[The Great John L]

I think Norton worked at an aggressive, consistent pace that Lennox couldn't match. Lennox liked to box at his own big man's pace and pick his shots, he didn't like it all versus Mercer and Mavrovic.

X2. Norton's style was completely different from Lewis and his work-rate and stamina were far superior to anything Lewis ever showed in his career.

And I'd pick Norton to beat Lennox too. Lewis would have maybe a 40/60 chance in the first two rounds to catch Ken with something big early on and take him out, but I see it more likely that Norton out-jabs Lewis while avoiding any massive punches, and then wears down and outworks Lewis in the later rounds to take a decision.

And when exactly did Norton ever avoid big punches? He couldn't avoid Foremans slow ponderous punches, yet somehow he completely changes his style and becomes a defensive master against Lewis? Or is Lewis somehow slower and clumsier than Foreman? LL losing to Ali and Louis seems pefectly reasonable. But what did Norton accomplish in his career that indicates that he would be able to avoid the power shots of someone 6-5 240 with a good jab and decent speed? Norton had a style that troubled Ali, but his defense was almost non-existent against the right hand, and I think most would agree that Lewis had some pop in his right.

The greats of the past will always be ATGs, but why is it that some on here just can't give any credit to the more recent greats? It's not like Lewis beat nothing but no hit wonders like Sultan Ibragimov. He had a much deeper resume than Norton, and actually showed the ability to adapt his style against different opponents.

[Ezzard]

Norton could win but backing him seems to go against the logic. It sort of turns people off the debate too. Ends up feeling like you’d all pick against Wlad if he was allowed to go in with a hand gun versus David Bey.

[loaded_gloves]

No way was Foreman's punching in the 70s 'slow and ponderous'. A silly remark to make.

Also, Foreman was going right at Norton, all guns blazing. Shavers did the same. Can't really see Lennox jumping on a guy who has the power to level a McCall-type power punch on him. LL was too aware of his own chin.

If you pick Lewis, surely it is going to look more like the Morrison strategy, right attached to his chin to lessen Norton's left hook, jabbing and shot picking and hopefully the ref stops it? Certainly Norton was a much smarter boxer than most of LL's opponents and he packs serious power.

[The Great John L]

No way was Foreman's punching in the 70s 'slow and ponderous'. A silly remark to make.

Only silly if you don't know what you're watching, or you're judgement is too clouded by hero worship.

Lewis had no trouble walking right through Ruddock, who most reasonable observers would say was a much harder puncher than Norton. As was McCall BTW.

So now Norton is a big puncher?