Did Ali really hit his "Peak"?

[yancey]

Mr. Yancey,

Did you get the feeling that nearly every Cassius Clay bout back then was like a Sideshow in a Circus.

* February 1964 - Fiasco in Florida, As Sonny Dives But Misses The Atlantic Ocean {Miami Beach}

* May 1965 - The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated On The Public {Lewiston, Maine}

* November 1965 - A Terrible Display Of Championship Boxing Over A Fighter Nearly Able To Walk {Las Vegas}

* March 1966 - Canadian Bacon, As George Chuvalo Had Lost His Previous Bout To Eduardo Corletti {Toronto}

* May 1966 - What Round Will Henry Cooper Start Bleeding {England}

* August 1966 - Cassius Clay Scrapes The Bottom Of The Barrel For A Challenger, As Brian London Falls Down {England}

* September 1966 - German Streudel, As Karl Mildenberger Goes Down From Light-Pastry Right Hands {Germany}

* November 1966 - Shot Down In The Astrodome, As A One-Legged, Literally Shot 'Big Cat' Has No More Lives {Houston}

* February 1967 - The Best Of A Mediocre Bunch, As The 6' 6" Gangling String-Bean Ernie Terrell Goes The Distance {Houston}

* March 1967 - Zora Zapped, As A Worn Out '36 Year-Old' Zora Folley Looks Like He Was Wearing Cement Shoes {New York}

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.

Not really and God knows I'm no great Ali apologetic.

Which one of that line up impresses you, hhaehre?

Please keep in mind the stage of their career, condition on fight night, motivation, etc.

[yancey]

The fight everybody wanted in 1966

Cassius Clay vs. Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln...........in Los Angeles, California or the Streets of Watts.

Amos was a 'crazy kind of dangerous'.

October 1, 1966

*** Cassius Clay {WBC Champion}
#1... Ernie Terrell {WBA Champion}
#2... Zora Folley
#3... Thad Spencer
#4... Amos Lincoln
#5... Cleveland Williams
#6... Karl Mildenberger
#7... Doug Jones
#8... Henry Cooper
#9... Oscar Bonavena
#10. George Chuvalo

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... yh9lNgcwgQ

#10 takes #8 any day of the week, in my view.

btw, where was Patterson in these 10/66 ratings?

He absolutely devastated Cooper in 9/66 in my favorite Floyd performance.

Must have been a bit of a gap considering printing times.

[BoxBuzz]

So for anyone following this conversation just wander over and take a gander at ol' Lincoln's resume. He was one of the greats no doubt. And the work it took to keep him down, and to keep his name out of the papers so that Ali could continue with his charade, is quite remarkable.

A refreshing dose of reality.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think we are all starting to appreciate Il Duce's logic.
Obviously Ali was terrified of the great Amos Lincoln. In Ali's career he only beat 8 of the 10 top contenders listed.
However, no Amos Lincoln.

Too bad it didn't happen. As Il Duce said "everybody" wanted to see that fight.
Interesting that the next year Lincoln did have a fight vs that horrible Karl Mildenberger who Ali did fight and beat.
Guess what? Mildenberger stopped Lincoln in 6 rounds. Huh. How could that have happened? Must be that styles makes fights thing.

[hhaehre]

Like it or not, there is a great deal of truth here.

Not really and God knows I'm no great Ali apologetic.

Which one of that line up impresses you, hhaehre?

Please keep in mind the stage of their career, condition on fight night, motivation, etc.

The problem arises when the 'who else' question has to be answered. We then get served up Corletti and Amos 'effin' Lincoln who quite frankly does not improve on the list. Besides, most of the fighters available in the mid sixties can be torn down in the same manner done on that list. Machen old and spent, Ellis a blown up middleweight, Quarry the 'white hope' who got schooled by old man Machen, Leotis Martin built up fighting stiffs and even managed to get knocked out by one of them and so on...

I'm no great fan of Ali but let's be fair, he didn't do much wrong in the sixties and there just wasn't many great fighters around for him to fight at that time.

[BoxBuzz]

More Money? How could that be? Everybody wanted to see the Lincoln fight.......so the money MUST have been there.

Otherwise.....maybe it wasn't as popular an idea as you put forth.

The idea that Lincoln was feared by the champion is an imaginative stretch. If that's where the threat was, that's where the money would have been.

[SenorPipino]

Boy, you read some of the posts from these guys and it's almost amazing that Ali was able to find his way to a gym, put on some trunks, lace up his shoes, and actually learn how to throw a jab while standing. What a stiff!
But Eduardo Corletti, there was an all-time great.
Somebody should tell Frazier, Foreman, Liston, Patterson, Quarry, Norton et al that Ali couldn't really fight. Think how big a bunch of bums they must be.

[loaded_gloves]

Christ there's some insane levels of half-truth and general gross misrepresentation going on in this thread. What is the point of it all? The breakdown of Ali's 60 reign is ridiculously skewed - if anyone can point to me a heavyweight championship reign in history that cannot be spun in the exact same infantile fashion I'd love to see it.

The Smokin' Joe fanatics attempting to diminish Muhammad Ali are in doing so depriving their man of his finest ever win. It seems it was a mere bum and fraud who went fifteen torrid rounds with Joe, and put him in the hospital how long.

Jeez. This thread is ridiculous.

I love Smokin' Joe by the way, before Yancey and Marvis and Cloverly jump on me. But come on. Be reasonable. Both these men are Kings, either accord them some respect or get down the gym and show us all how great you are.

[BoxBuzz]

Cassius Clay wasn't going anywhere near Amos 'Big Train' Lincoln in 1966, especially in California.

The LSG Group still owned Cassius until October 1966 when their contract expired, and they weren't
taking any uneccessary risks.

They even turned down a $300,000 'Winner-Take-All-Bout' at the Oakland Coliseum.

Oakland Tribune.

'Big Train Squashes Cassius Into Clay"

"Cassius Says, He Only Wants To Fight In Europe, Where The Tough Heavyweights Are"

I thought you said he was going for the money....now you say the money was there. Before we go any futher...which is it?

Mildenburger did beat the Big Train.......so your point is a bit blunted by all the obfuscation you are engaging in.

Anyway he would have beaten the bejabbers out of Lincoln.....Quietly, you know this full well to be true.....and I'm guessing it's an inconvenient truth.

[yancey]

"You're Reading This Incorrectly" Duce

A common occurrence here, sorry to say.

[BoxBuzz]

You're Reading This Incorrectly,

The 'money' and 'safety' was in Europe.

Never said that the 'Big Train' would run over Cassius, just that he would have been a better
opponent, and made for a better and more entertaining bout than "Brian London Falls Down"
or the expected result in "Henry Let It Bleed Cooper"

A) George Chuvalo 'loses' to 'unranked' Eduardo Corletti
B) Amos Lincoln 'defeats' #2 Ranked - Thad Spencer

Cassius then goes 'North-of-the Border',,,,,I thought he couldn't eat Bacon.

The only way this could have been a bigger joke, is if Cassius said he wanted fight
a Football Player {Jim Brown} or a Basketball Player {Wilt Chamberlin}.

Oh Wait........He Did..... ;;-)

Get me Antonio Inoki......................

OK gotcha...you spun it in a direction I can follow now. But you were insinuating some stuff about Lincoln that could have been easily "misread" I guess.

And now that you've spun it this way, I'm not as sure what your point was. He wiped everyone out in the division, and went out to become an entertainer for an evening. I think he thought the Inoki event would be easy rakin' some japanese yen.......and he got the crap kicked out of his legs for his effort.

[yancey]

You're Reading This Incorrectly,

The 'money' and 'safety' was in Europe.

Never said that the 'Big Train' would run over Cassius, just that he would have been a better
opponent, and made for a better and more entertaining bout than "Brian London Falls Down"
or the expected result in "Henry Let It Bleed Cooper"

A) George Chuvalo 'loses' to 'unranked' Eduardo Corletti
B) Amos Lincoln 'defeats' #2 Ranked - Thad Spencer

Cassius then goes 'North-of-the Border',,,,,I thought he couldn't eat Bacon.

The only way this could have been a bigger joke, is if Cassius said he wanted fight
a Football Player {Jim Brown} or a Basketball Player {Wilt Chamberlin}.

Oh Wait........He Did..... ;;-)

Get me Antonio Inoki......................

OK gotcha...you spun it in a direction I can follow now. But you were insinuating some stuff about Lincoln that could have been easily "misread" I guess.

And now that you've spun it this way, I'm not as sure what your point was. He wiped everyone out in the division, and went out to become an entertainer for an evening. I think he thought the Inoki event would be easy rakin' some japanese yen.......and he got the crap kicked out of his legs for his effort.

Could it be that the Inoki event was actually Ali's peak?

Have we at last found it?

If so, the timing was exquisite as it was an electric moment in sporting history, uniting two disciplines in such a dignified manner.

Ranks right up there with Foreman vs the Toronto Five in my book. Another peak of sorts.

[BoxBuzz]

Got that right.

Only at least Foreman had a shot at making his event something to crow about.

IF he would have whacked every guy out in the first ten seconds of the round, I think it would have been a respect moment.

The Inoki thing was purely about turning a buck/yen.

Sadly I wasn't even entertained by the affair.....I did however get a big kick out of what Wepner signed on for. To me that was at least entertainment. When Andre got tired of getting whacked he just picks his opponent up like a sack of potatoes and tosses him like a dwarf.

Honestly, that would have been a more appropriate matchup...Ali vs Andre...with the same ending.....at least it would have been good for a laugh.

[scallum]

What wouldve happened if it was Frazier who had been Forced to take off 3.5 years? How would he do vs A Ali that was continuously boxing ?

[BoxBuzz]

I'll tell you what I believe.....I believe you have dog in this race. lol.

[p4p1]

Mr. Scallum

You make it sound as if Muhammad Ali was pulled out of the Boxing Ring in April 1967,
and was then forced to sit in a closet for 3 1/2 years, and then the door is opened in
March 1971, and he is forced to get in the Ring with Joe Frazier.

Is that what you believe happened............

Well he wasn't given much choice about retiring in 1967, Who would you prefer him to fight instead of Frazier? A lesser fighter so you could call him a coward for not taking on Frazier when Frazier was at his best?

[loaded_gloves]

Now we've descended into deliberately misunderstanding Ali's position in 1967.

I don't blame him at all for not supporting that stupid war in any way and making a stand.

I wouldn't fight for a country where I was considered a 'ni**er' and couldn't go to the same places everybody else could.

Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.

[p4p1]

Now we've descended into deliberately misunderstanding Ali's position in 1967.

I don't blame him at all for not supporting that stupid war in any way and making a stand.

I wouldn't fight for a country where I was considered a 'ni**er' and couldn't go to the same places everybody else could.

Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.

[p4p1]

p4p1,

Incorrect Sir,

Cassius Clay was given 'multiple-choices' in 1967, unfortunately he checked the wrong 'Box'.

Joe Frazier was at his physical best in 1969 and early-1970, up to the point where he
broke his right ankle and damaged the ligaments on April 3, 1970 in Las Vegas.

That injury put 'Smokin Joe' out-of-action for over 7-Months - where his weight ballooned
up to 230 lbs. because he could not 'hit-the-gym'.

He came back 7+ Months later, against Light-Heavyweight Champion Bob Foster on November 18, 1970.

It was Joe Frazier who could not train in the gym, while Muhammad Ali was staying busy with an
highly-intense training regiment during all of 1970.

Food-For-Thought

"My Shangri-La Beneath The Summer Moon"........'Kashmir' {Led Zeppelin}

So he announced his retirement officially in Feb and was later given a license to fight again in August but he trained intensely all through 1970? Why would he announce his retirement in 1970 if he thought he was going to fight again later that year? I don't know what you have against Ali though constantly referring to him as Clay might shed a little light on it. You keep shitting on Ali's 60s reign but it isn't as though Frazier had an ATG littered reign either.

[BoxBuzz]

Be that as it may, WE care about YOU.

[loaded_gloves]

Meaning,

The word 'Duce' is derived from the Latin Word meaning, 'Duke'.

It has nothing to do with Benito Mussolini, who by the way got the Italian Railway System
to function properly during his reign.

Let's not get Political here,

Do you truly believe that Muhammad Ali's avoidance to join the U.S. Military was because of
his stance against the Vietnam War.

Nobody was going to make him pick up an M-16 and run through the Rice Fields in the
Mekong River Delta.

For God's Sake, Entertainer Joey Heatherton protested the war, yet went over to Vietnam
many times to entertain the Troops with the U.S.O. Group to show support for the 'MEN'.

Muhammad Ali cared about Muhammad Ali........

Yeah, and 'Fuhrer' means 'leader' and if some poster opted to post under that name it would give all of his pathological hatred and loose associations an equally creepy air.

Just look over your conspiracy theories in this thread. You read like a paranoid schizophrenic.

And christ, I don't think Joe Frazier's own children harbour the deep seated resentment of Muhammad Ali that 'Yancey' does.

I know, Ali knew, we all knew Ali wouldn't have to shoot guns in Nam. That's not the point and never was. He stood up and refused to support a war on yellow people by white people who were treating black people with the same disdain. He took a stand knowing he risked ruining his reputation and losing his livelihood.

In time, America and the world came around to his thinking in regards to the Vietnam war. He showed incredible character and heroics in his return to boxing. He has shown the same qualities in battling his long illness.

And yet all that only leads to men like Mussolini here, sorry, Il Duce, to belittle the great man from his keyboard, and seriously try and suggest he was a coward and ducked Amos Lincoln and the other journeymen he's listed in this pathetic infantile thread.

Why don't you write an article on the real truth behind Muhammad Ali? Affix your face and full name to it and shop it around to the various boxing websites? Let's see you stand up for what you believe in!

[Giancarlo]

Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.

You can see why Nancy has a crush on him.

[Giancarlo]

Il Duce, you're a strange chap with creepy views. I'm starting to see why you adopted the nickname of a man like Mussolini.

You can see why Nancy has a crush on him.

Yes, Cassius was doing everything because of the way his people were treated,,,,,

Of course, the 'Nut-Huggers' forget the way how cruel he treated little defenseless Sonji Roi.

Oh, I guess she wasn't human........

Sonji Roi,,,,,,,,"As a husband, Cassius was still in preliminaries."

Ah, so it's actually Ali the man you hate.

You'll be pleased to know it's the same with that other nutter Nancy and his dad the legendary ku klux klansman granberry.

Can't say I'm surprised after all your creepy posts.

[BoxBuzz]

You'll never slip the obvious past Giancarlo......he's on it like a bloodhound on a steak.

[yancey]

You'll never slip the obvious past Giancarlo......he's on it like a bloodhound on a steak.

A fly at a picnic would be more accurate.

I don't hate Ali. Never did. I have him right there with Louis at the top when talking all-time heavies.

I detested Ali's treatment of a very good man like Frazier culminating with the cruelty at Manila.

No human being should treat another that way. It proved sad for Ali.

But whatever.