Aaron Pryor
I almost let this one go, but Tomato Can called me out. So..Pryor was a good fighter, had flashes when he was very good, but was in no way a great one. I build my case on the following: All fighters with potential start with poor oppostion just to get them confidence and experience, but some of the fighters Aaron fought ....well, there are people listed in fair to poor condition in the hospital who could have beaten them just as impressively. Plus, there was the question of motivation. I was there...ringside for those fights, and some of these gentlemen were so pleased that they were going to get paid just for answering the bell but not to throw punches that they fainted from joy after a wild right hand missed by a wide margin. The most blatant one I saw was a guy going down from a right hand that missed him by a good two feet. the crowd was amused so much that they laughed spontaneously before the got around to booing.
One fighter whom Aaron called a "tough test" was Johnny Copeland , whom he knocked out. Copeland had suffered this kind of defeat in his past ..at least 18 kobys, as I recall, and an equal number of lost decisions. Nor can the matchmaker be blamed for the ones that came along a little later. Aaron would not...flat refused...to fight any fighter taller than he. A match with Howard Davis, his olympic conquerr , was proposed and he turned it down. He also wanted any foe's recent record checked. He just about vetoed any fight with an opponent who wasn't coming off a loss.
He won the junior welter title over a faded champion, and at that time the division was nowhere near as good as it is now.
The Arguello fight #1..and the Panama Lewis "bottle." Aaron says it was just peppermint schnapes, and I belive he really thinks so. (would have been illegal anyway, as it contains alcohol,) but it's NOT A STIMULANT.) Yet Aaron was stimulated indeed,and he won in a terrifc battle..over a man who had won his first title as a featherweight! Urine test was somehow "lost" after the fight, or they forgot to give it. There are two versions.
Arguello #2.Fierce performance and another win over a former featherweight.
There are ways to provide stimulants to the body that do not have to be swallowed . They can be inhaled and even, to some degree, absorbed through the pores.
Aaron Pryor was covered with an excess of "vaseline " in that fight, especially around the mouth. I was told the day before the fight to look for this.
Any relationship between the two statements above is purely conjecture on the reader's part.
I do not think Aaron could reach the top in the junior welter division today.
So much for my opinion of him as a fighter.
As a man - He came from way down, reached the top and then through his own excesses and bad influences sank down to the lowest depths. He wasted away to maybe a hundred pounds. At least, this is what it looked like to those of us who saw him. Then came the great turnaround. He had the help of those who were with him at the start and then cast aside, but the credit must go to Aaron himself. Through enormous willpower and courage and a few relapses along the way, he rehabilitated himself (which is the only way it can really be done) and is a productive member of society, a good influence on young guys who face the same temptations he did, a mentor and has every reason to be proud of his "comeback" outside the ring, and is well respected back in his home town of Cincinnati.
But...he has a mostly paper record that inflates his talent.
There is an excellent book (though badly proofread) called "Flight of the Hawk" written byh Aaron Pryor and Marshall Terrill. Published by BOOK WORLD INC. 9666 E. Riggs Rd. #194, Sun Lakes, Arizona 85248. Sometimes brutally honest about himself,and it even has comments by others who give versions not always flattering to him, but they're in there.
I know almost all of the people quoted,and while I disagree with some opinions they are honest people . It's a paperback book and I hope it's still available as anybody interested in boxing will find it highly unusual and informative,and a must for fans of The Hawk.
One fighter whom Aaron called a "tough test" was Johnny Copeland , whom he knocked out. Copeland had suffered this kind of defeat in his past ..at least 18 kobys, as I recall, and an equal number of lost decisions. Nor can the matchmaker be blamed for the ones that came along a little later. Aaron would not...flat refused...to fight any fighter taller than he. A match with Howard Davis, his olympic conquerr , was proposed and he turned it down. He also wanted any foe's recent record checked. He just about vetoed any fight with an opponent who wasn't coming off a loss.
He won the junior welter title over a faded champion, and at that time the division was nowhere near as good as it is now.
The Arguello fight #1..and the Panama Lewis "bottle." Aaron says it was just peppermint schnapes, and I belive he really thinks so. (would have been illegal anyway, as it contains alcohol,) but it's NOT A STIMULANT.) Yet Aaron was stimulated indeed,and he won in a terrifc battle..over a man who had won his first title as a featherweight! Urine test was somehow "lost" after the fight, or they forgot to give it. There are two versions.
Arguello #2.Fierce performance and another win over a former featherweight.
There are ways to provide stimulants to the body that do not have to be swallowed . They can be inhaled and even, to some degree, absorbed through the pores.
Aaron Pryor was covered with an excess of "vaseline " in that fight, especially around the mouth. I was told the day before the fight to look for this.
Any relationship between the two statements above is purely conjecture on the reader's part.
I do not think Aaron could reach the top in the junior welter division today.
So much for my opinion of him as a fighter.
As a man - He came from way down, reached the top and then through his own excesses and bad influences sank down to the lowest depths. He wasted away to maybe a hundred pounds. At least, this is what it looked like to those of us who saw him. Then came the great turnaround. He had the help of those who were with him at the start and then cast aside, but the credit must go to Aaron himself. Through enormous willpower and courage and a few relapses along the way, he rehabilitated himself (which is the only way it can really be done) and is a productive member of society, a good influence on young guys who face the same temptations he did, a mentor and has every reason to be proud of his "comeback" outside the ring, and is well respected back in his home town of Cincinnati.
But...he has a mostly paper record that inflates his talent.
There is an excellent book (though badly proofread) called "Flight of the Hawk" written byh Aaron Pryor and Marshall Terrill. Published by BOOK WORLD INC. 9666 E. Riggs Rd. #194, Sun Lakes, Arizona 85248. Sometimes brutally honest about himself,and it even has comments by others who give versions not always flattering to him, but they're in there.
I know almost all of the people quoted,and while I disagree with some opinions they are honest people . It's a paperback book and I hope it's still available as anybody interested in boxing will find it highly unusual and informative,and a must for fans of The Hawk.
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Tomato-Can
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 656
- Joined: 28 Dec 2001, 20:00
Pryor was indeed overrated.Jaclem wrote:I almost let this one go, but Tomato Can called me out. So..Pryor was a good fighter, had flashes when he was very good, but was in no way a great one. I build my case on the following: All fighters with potential start with poor oppostion just to get them confidence and experience, but some of the fighters Aaron fought ....well, there are people listed in fair to poor condition in the hospital who could have beaten them just as impressively. Plus, there was the question of motivation. I was there...ringside for those fights, and some of these gentlemen were so pleased that they were going to get paid just for answering the bell but not to throw punches that they fainted from joy after a wild right hand missed by a wide margin. The most blatant one I saw was a guy going down from a right hand that missed him by a good two feet. the crowd was amused so much that they laughed spontaneously before the got around to booing.
One fighter whom Aaron called a "tough test" was Johnny Copeland , whom he knocked out. Copeland had suffered this kind of defeat in his past ..at least 18 kobys, as I recall, and an equal number of lost decisions. Nor can the matchmaker be blamed for the ones that came along a little later. Aaron would not...flat refused...to fight any fighter taller than he. A match with Howard Davis, his olympic conquerr , was proposed and he turned it down. He also wanted any foe's recent record checked. He just about vetoed any fight with an opponent who wasn't coming off a loss.
He won the junior welter title over a faded champion, and at that time the division was nowhere near as good as it is now.
The Arguello fight #1..and the Panama Lewis "bottle." Aaron says it was just peppermint schnapes, and I belive he really thinks so. (would have been illegal anyway, as it contains alcohol,) but it's NOT A STIMULANT.) Yet Aaron was stimulated indeed,and he won in a terrifc battle..over a man who had won his first title as a featherweight! Urine test was somehow "lost" after the fight, or they forgot to give it. There are two versions.
Arguello #2.Fierce performance and another win over a former featherweight.
There are ways to provide stimulants to the body that do not have to be swallowed . They can be inhaled and even, to some degree, absorbed through the pores.
Aaron Pryor was covered with an excess of "vaseline " in that fight, especially around the mouth. I was told the day before the fight to look for this.
Any relationship between the two statements above is purely conjecture on the reader's part.
I do not think Aaron could reach the top in the junior welter division today.
So much for my opinion of him as a fighter.
As a man - He came from way down, reached the top and then through his own excesses and bad influences sank down to the lowest depths. He wasted away to maybe a hundred pounds. At least, this is what it looked like to those of us who saw him. Then came the great turnaround. He had the help of those who were with him at the start and then cast aside, but the credit must go to Aaron himself. Through enormous willpower and courage and a few relapses along the way, he rehabilitated himself (which is the only way it can really be done) and is a productive member of society, a good influence on young guys who face the same temptations he did, a mentor and has every reason to be proud of his "comeback" outside the ring, and is well respected back in his home town of Cincinnati.
But...he has a mostly paper record that inflates his talent.
There is an excellent book (though badly proofread) called "Flight of the Hawk" written byh Aaron Pryor and Marshall Terrill. Published by BOOK WORLD INC. 9666 E. Riggs Rd. #194, Sun Lakes, Arizona 85248. Sometimes brutally honest about himself,and it even has comments by others who give versions not always flattering to him, but they're in there.
I know almost all of the people quoted,and while I disagree with some opinions they are honest people . It's a paperback book and I hope it's still available as anybody interested in boxing will find it highly unusual and informative,and a must for fans of The Hawk.
He had a padded record and dominated a weak division. The only truly great fighter he beat was Arguello, whose prime was at a lower weight class. And he needed to cheat to win the first fight, like Jaclem said.
He may be a little overrated, but I think the whole bottle theory is a joke. I don't care what it was, it didn't win the fight for Pryor. Arguello wilted and got hit with a ton of shots. End of story.
There was a lot of good information in Jaclem's post, but I saw the DuJuan Johnson fight and while Johnson is not an all time great, he had a huge size advantage over Pryor and could punch. Pryor got off the deck to win that fight. Pryor's chin and relentless attack would carry him to victory over any junior welter today. None of the current crop can fight at that pace for an entire fight (with or without a little black bottle).
There was a lot of good information in Jaclem's post, but I saw the DuJuan Johnson fight and while Johnson is not an all time great, he had a huge size advantage over Pryor and could punch. Pryor got off the deck to win that fight. Pryor's chin and relentless attack would carry him to victory over any junior welter today. None of the current crop can fight at that pace for an entire fight (with or without a little black bottle).
Just wanted to add that Aaron Pryor broke a lot of boxing's rules. He wasn't a technically sound fighter. He moved straight back and crossed his feet while doing it. He squared up with his feet parallel all the time and got hit a lot. For these reasons, you can say he wasn't great. But his chin was great and his workrate was extraordinary.
Pryor was a great light-welterweight, if not an all-time great fighter. He beat Cervantes and reigned as champion (in one form or another) till the mid-eighties. He was unbeatable at 10stone. The win over Arguello in Miami will always make him a division standout. I mean look at the other champs around his time - Bruce Curry, Saoul Mamby, Leroy Haley and Bill Costello. Pryor could have beaten them all in the same night.
Bennie - I agree that he probably would have beaten those other guys, and accept that "all in one night" is a touch of hyperbole. except for Mamby, who was a great trickster, I think most good junior welters would also. Very weak division during his reign.
I don't think he would beat any of the top junior welters of today.
I do not think he was a great fighter.As I have said, I think he was a good one, and perhaps even preface good with "very". Most Pryor fans forget that in the opening rounds he'd come on in a furious whirlwind. If the opponent stayed in there, he'd slow down, coast and box, and he wasn't a bad boxer when he chose that route. The big surprise of the Arguello fight was that he kept up the super-hectic pace right until the end. Maybe Jolt Cola can do that for you. I know it gets ME little hyper, so that's what was probably in the Little Bottle. Unlikely though, as someone in his camp took a swig of it and said "Jesus...I thought I was swallowing gasoline.
I don't think he would beat any of the top junior welters of today.
I do not think he was a great fighter.As I have said, I think he was a good one, and perhaps even preface good with "very". Most Pryor fans forget that in the opening rounds he'd come on in a furious whirlwind. If the opponent stayed in there, he'd slow down, coast and box, and he wasn't a bad boxer when he chose that route. The big surprise of the Arguello fight was that he kept up the super-hectic pace right until the end. Maybe Jolt Cola can do that for you. I know it gets ME little hyper, so that's what was probably in the Little Bottle. Unlikely though, as someone in his camp took a swig of it and said "Jesus...I thought I was swallowing gasoline.
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15666
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
Aaron Pryor was a great jr. welterweight that was a non-stop punchine machine that threw punches of all angles. The Ring Magazine rated him in position #35 in which PERSONALLY, I COMPLETELY DISAGREE!!! I gave him credit for the 26 consecutive victories won by KO from 1977-83, But his career and quality of opposition was TOO SHORT. Of the 100 GREATEST FIGHTERS OF ALL TIME I have him in position #70.saad wrote:He may be a little overrated, but I think the whole bottle theory is a joke. I don't care what it was, it didn't win the fight for Pryor. Arguello wilted and got hit with a ton of shots. End of story.
There was a lot of good information in Jaclem's post, but I saw the DuJuan Johnson fight and while Johnson is not an all time great, he had a huge size advantage over Pryor and could punch. Pryor got off the deck to win that fight. Pryor's chin and relentless attack would carry him to victory over any junior welter today. None of the current crop can fight at that pace for an entire fight (with or without a little black bottle).
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15666
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
Pryor also in the Arguello fight in 1982 in Miami in the 14th round, had AN ACCIDENTAL HEADBUTT WITH THE EXPLOSIVE THIN MAN BEFORE THE KNOCKOUT. JUST LOOK AT THE TAPE WHOEVER THAT HAS IT. Arguello after the ACCIDENTAL HEADBUTT DID NOT THROW A SINGLE PUNCH because his forehead was hurting and that is why he got Knocked out that night. I had the fight EVEN ON POINTS.
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Tomato-Can
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 656
- Joined: 28 Dec 2001, 20:00
[quote="saad"]Just wanted to add that Aaron Pryor broke a lot of boxing's rules. He wasn't a technically sound fighter. He moved straight back and crossed his feet while doing it. He squared up with his feet parallel all the time and got hit a lot. For these reasons, you can say he wasn't great. But his chin was great and his workrate was extraordinary.[/quote]
That is correct. Pryor was a example for any novice of what not to do, but he somehow managed to get away with it most of the time.
That is correct. Pryor was a example for any novice of what not to do, but he somehow managed to get away with it most of the time.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
whether u dont think he was an all time great or not, u gotta admit HE WAS FUN TO WATCH,
- he was the craziest mother i have ever seen.
- i love the pryor-johnson fight, watch before the fight starts both fighters dancing round the ring tauning. then watch the staredown where pryor gives him the sly smile. then watch the first couple rounds of the fight, very action packed and competetive for first 5 rounds.
-pryor after getting knocked down would bounce up and charge after his opponents, like i said crazy mother.
he was a good fighter i rate him 60th all time something like that. i think he could beat the junior weltweights today outside of mayweather. pryor was a very good boxer when he wanted too. he also had a great chin, great power and incredible work rate and stamina. he was very agressive.
he beat a tough antonio cervantes. no one did what he had done to cervantes. he rose off the canvas like a wild crazy animal and cervantes looked at him like "holy shit". he then knocked out HOF cervantes cold.
- pryor was in his prime at lightweight. he was coming up but he showed in that first fight he had one great fight in him left. it was a classic war.
- i do wish pryor would have stepped upp and fought leonard or w.e or perhaps unified the JW title. IMO leonard would have knocked him out
- he was the craziest mother i have ever seen.
- i love the pryor-johnson fight, watch before the fight starts both fighters dancing round the ring tauning. then watch the staredown where pryor gives him the sly smile. then watch the first couple rounds of the fight, very action packed and competetive for first 5 rounds.
-pryor after getting knocked down would bounce up and charge after his opponents, like i said crazy mother.
he was a good fighter i rate him 60th all time something like that. i think he could beat the junior weltweights today outside of mayweather. pryor was a very good boxer when he wanted too. he also had a great chin, great power and incredible work rate and stamina. he was very agressive.
he beat a tough antonio cervantes. no one did what he had done to cervantes. he rose off the canvas like a wild crazy animal and cervantes looked at him like "holy shit". he then knocked out HOF cervantes cold.
- pryor was in his prime at lightweight. he was coming up but he showed in that first fight he had one great fight in him left. it was a classic war.
- i do wish pryor would have stepped upp and fought leonard or w.e or perhaps unified the JW title. IMO leonard would have knocked him out
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tiredoldngrey
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 442
- Joined: 23 May 2005, 12:36
Pryor was a busy fighter who had a lot of kos and, honest to God, it never looked like he punched that well. My father and I watched him fight on tv one Saturday afternoon. My father was a life long boxing fan and had sparred with Fritzie Zivic and he watched the fight for several rounds, a doubting look on his face that gave way to smirks and head shaking before he walked out on the rest of the fight. (I think this may have been the Guiden fight). He told me later that he had seen many of the top fighters over the years and when they landed a hard punch their bodies and hands etc...behaved in a certain way and did certain things. Pryor didn't do any of those things and yet wass called a hard hitter and the opponent fell from every other punch. He said either they lied about Pryor's power and the other guy was taking a swim, so to speak, or Marciano et al couldn't punch or the laws of physics has been changed.
Apart from the bottle what was Panama Lewis cracking those capsules under his nose between rounds full of? Speed will hit your system real fast through your nose membranes and Pryor took punches that would have stopped anyone in his tracks and finished him, but he seemed to laugh them off that night. Makes me wondersaad wrote:He may be a little overrated, but I think the whole bottle theory is a joke. I don't care what it was, it didn't win the fight for Pryor. Arguello wilted and got hit with a ton of shots. End of story.
There was a lot of good information in Jaclem's post, but I saw the DuJuan Johnson fight and while Johnson is not an all time great, he had a huge size advantage over Pryor and could punch. Pryor got off the deck to win that fight. Pryor's chin and relentless attack would carry him to victory over any junior welter today. None of the current crop can fight at that pace for an entire fight (with or without a little black bottle).
cheers M.O.
I think Pryor would of thrown too many punches for Whitaker and beaten him on points. The Guy to beat Pryor at his best would be someone able to stand toe to toe with him and out fight him and force him back. Even then Pryor could box very well on the back foot when he wanted.
I think a Leonard or a Duran would beat Pryor but I think theres very few 140 fighters of the past that would have beaten Arron.
I don't think Pryorr is overrated because we only got to see a little of him at his best before drugs ruined him.
Also people should remember that Pryor was a natural Lightweight who moved up to 140 because he couldn't get a shot at 135.... had he got that shot at 135 he would probably be regarded even higher today as I think he would have dominated that divison.....
I think a Leonard or a Duran would beat Pryor but I think theres very few 140 fighters of the past that would have beaten Arron.
I don't think Pryorr is overrated because we only got to see a little of him at his best before drugs ruined him.
Also people should remember that Pryor was a natural Lightweight who moved up to 140 because he couldn't get a shot at 135.... had he got that shot at 135 he would probably be regarded even higher today as I think he would have dominated that divison.....