Marciano vs. Ali

[Grimm]

I heard plenty of stories about this, but like 30 seconds ago I actually got to see some of it and it shows Marciano knocking Ali out.

Not that this is realistic or anything but I think this film was released in france or something.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

ahh yes,

when marciano was informed, he had balooned to well over 250lbs. he started training seriously and lost 50lbs and came in decent shape. marciano still had a little gut however, and was around 220lb for the fight. ali didnt train that much at all and didnt come in the best shape.

In "Marciano, Biography of a First Son", Everett Skehan said, "When Rocky went to the dingy gym on the North Side of Miami Beach he was thinking tough, expecting things to go smoothly but prepared for anything. He had been briefed, knew that the punches were to be pulled, and that it would not be a real fight. But Rocky wouldn't go into the ring that way. Even at forty-six, he had to feel that if something went wrong, if suddenly the punches became real, he would be ready to win."



this was the computer fight made by marty woroner in 1968 i believe.

ali and marciano sparred for many rounds, taking it easy on the head punches, but going full force on the body. after one of the sessions, marciano told ali to lift up his shirt, there were red swelling all over his body.

funny thing is marciano didnt like ali before. he thought he talked too much and his cockiness was bad for the sport. however, marciano got to talking with ali and he found he genuily liked ali. ali always called him champ, never rocky. ali actually said he got closer to rocky, than anyone other white fighter.


Said Dundee of the affair: "Muhammad acquired a lot of respect for Rocky. He said Rocky was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked."


- of course the famous wig episode, ali kept flinging it off and it made marciano angry and embarrased. the next time he did it marciano shouted "u better not do that again"!!!!!

They began once more and immediatly Ali flicked the wig off Rocky's head.... then stories came of what happened after.


Stories came out of the sessions. Several claimed Rocky really hurt Ali with body shots, so that Muhammad climbed out of the ring and demanded extra money to continue. He was payed additional money. (Woroner himself said Ali took such a battering that he refused to continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars.) I've talked to the son of one observer who says Rocky doubled Ali up with a body shot after Ali kept jabbing the wig off Rocky's head. Dundee admitted to the wig episode, but never told of the hard body shot that it led to. Ferdie Pacheco, however, the ring doctor in the film, claims Ali was dropped by a real body shot. The undeniable fact is, Rocky entered the ring ready to make a real fight of it if need be. Even Dundee said he had to be calmed down after the wig incident.




in alis biography it said, marciano was trying his hardest and ali was playing around with the old man.



so as u see, two completely different sides. the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.



they showed different versions, the version we all know is marciano Knocked out ali in the 13th round. other versions were ali winning on cuts.

its kind of interesting see two legends in the ring like that. i see a 46 year old man who once had a rock solid body, and i try to picture what it would look like if he were 17 years younger in the ring with ali.

[bill.lockhart]

It seems as the years go by, Rocky has become less & less respected.
Why, I can't imagine. Strength, power, will, endurance. These are the advantages Rocky would carry into the ring with him, against Ali of the 60 or 70's. Frazier beat Ali when he was 29. Will beats skill. Skill becomes the dominant factor only when it is so overwhelming that will isn't tested.
( Cus D'amato ) Rocky would find a way to win. He always did. They all look better as far as the moves are concerned but they don't look so good lying on the mat. ( Charlie Goldman ) No, never bet againsst Rocky Marciano.

[Rory McCloskey]

frazier vs. ali.....

will doesnt almost always beat skill? and who are u to question ali's will? i never saw him have a lack of will to win a fight?

and whocares if he was 29, he was past his physical prime.

its hard to argue that a 1967 Ali takes down a prime Marciano. IMO a 1967 Ali is the closest thing to unbeatable in the sport of boxing

[Tantum]

IMO a 1967 Ali is the closest thing to unbeatable in the sport of boxing

*cough* Larry Holmes *cough cough*

[Cojimar 1945]

Holmes was very skilled but his struggles with various challengers like Witherspoon and the knockdown against Snipes certainly give the impression that Holmes was not unbeatable.

[Grimm]

Holmes was very skilled but his struggles with various challengers like Witherspoon and the knockdown against Snipes certainly give the impression that Holmes was not unbeatable.

Ali struggled with his share of bums as well, Like Bugner, Cooper and Doug Jones.

[Grimm]

IMO a 1967 Ali is the closest thing to unbeatable in the sport of boxing

*cough* Larry Holmes *cough cough*

*cough* HELL YEAH *cough**cough*

[KO Artist]

I reckon Marciano would stop Ali between somewhere after round 11.

[KO Artist]

Holmes was very skilled but his struggles with various challengers like Witherspoon and the knockdown against Snipes certainly give the impression that Holmes was not unbeatable.

Ali was knocked down by Cooper Jones and Banks. Frazier also knocked him down, and Ali struggled with Norton, Young and many others, as well as losing to Frazier clearly. Ali was 29, and IMO still in his prime when he lost to Frazier.

One thing that Ali fans make me sick about is that they say he was past it when losing to Frazier, but 3 years later Ali went on to beat Foreman.

He wasnt past it at all.

Frazier was the better fighter at the time.

[The Great John L]

Holmes was very skilled but his struggles with various challengers like Witherspoon and the knockdown against Snipes certainly give the impression that Holmes was not unbeatable.

Ali was knocked down by Cooper Jones and Banks. Frazier also knocked him down, and Ali struggled with Norton, Young and many others, as well as losing to Frazier clearly. Ali was 29, and IMO still in his prime when he lost to Frazier.

One thing that Ali fans make me sick about is that they say he was past it when losing to Frazier, but 3 years later Ali went on to beat Foreman.

He wasnt past it at all.

Frazier was the better fighter at the time.

I didn't know Doug Jones knocked Ali down. Are you sure about this?

While I'm not sure if I would disagree too strongly with the comment that Ali was "in his prime" in Frazier 1, I think what most people mean is that he was probably not as sharp as before the layoff, and may have still been a bit rusty for this fight. I tend to think he was still pretty much in his prime, but didn't prepare properly for Frazier. I think he may have taken Frazier a bit lightly and made no real effort to craft a fight plan for the agressive style of Frazier. Of course I'm not sure that this view makes much sense either. Considering the very difficult time he had against Bonavena just 3 months earlier, you would think that Ali would have been very well prepared against Frazier.

[delisa]

Hey guys -- I did a documentary on the Ali-Marciano computer fight -- it is out in December -- check http://www.superfightdvd.com

We include an alternate ending with Ali winning!

[zuru]

I heard plenty of stories about this, but like 30 seconds ago I actually got to see some of it and it shows Marciano knocking Ali out.

Not that this is realistic or anything but I think this film was released in france or something.

Grimm,
You know that in their primes,the Great Marciano,would have pummeled Clay into a disfigured pile of flesh.They fight 100 times,Marciano over Clay 100 times,ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
zuru

[TheRiverCityHippy]

Holmes was very skilled but his struggles with various challengers like Witherspoon and the knockdown against Snipes certainly give the impression that Holmes was not unbeatable.

Ali was knocked down by Cooper Jones and Banks. Frazier also knocked him down, and Ali struggled with Norton, Young and many others, as well as losing to Frazier clearly. Ali was 29, and IMO still in his prime when he lost to Frazier.

One thing that Ali fans make me sick about is that they say he was past it when losing to Frazier, but 3 years later Ali went on to beat Foreman.

He wasnt past it at all.

Frazier was the better fighter at the time.

I didn't know Doug Jones knocked Ali down. Are you sure about this?

While I'm not sure if I would disagree too strongly with the comment that Ali was "in his prime" in Frazier 1, I think what most people mean is that he was probably not as sharp as before the layoff, and may have still been a bit rusty for this fight. I tend to think he was still pretty much in his prime, but didn't prepare properly for Frazier. I think he may have taken Frazier a bit lightly and made no real effort to craft a fight plan for the agressive style of Frazier. Of course I'm not sure that this view makes much sense either. Considering the very difficult time he had against Bonavena just 3 months earlier, you would think that Ali would have been very well prepared against Frazier.

ali would have beaten marciano, people like to mention ali hit the canvas a few times but they also forget to mention that until the holmes fight he always heard the final bell, despite being in with some of the biggest hitters in history and even fighting with a broken jaw!
marciano always had trouble with people with craft and cute boxer (but no where near ali`s level) roland lastarza (sp?) gave rocky all he could handle. dont forget archie moore put rocky down for a long count as well as jersey joe.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

ali would beat marciano by decision, but it would be close and ali would have trouble with rockys style.



- the fact that marciano dropped ali with a body shot in the lfiming has no effect. marciano caught an out of shape ali to the body kinda of a sucker punch with ali standing straight up and not expecting it. that said, ali said marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he thought and he gained a lot of respect from marciano as a fighter. even aa 46 year old marciano busted up alis body.



headhunter, walcott knocked marciano down with a 4 count, and marciano suffered a flash knockdown vs moore.



this fight would defintley go the distance[/quote]

[Cojimar 1945]

The Cooper and Jones fights occurred when Ali was only 21 years old and before his more impressive performances. These fights do not show Ali at his peak.

[Controversial]

I reckon Marciano would stop Ali between somewhere after round 11.

A prime Ali would box circles round the clumsy footed Marciano. Marciano had trouble with good boxers and they don't get much better or faster than Ali. Remember Marciano marked up bad and if anyone was going to be stopped it would likely be Marciano on cuts.

No one stopped Ali (i'm not counting Holmes because Ali was well past it then) so I don't see Marciano doing it.

My thinking is Ali on points or a stoppage on cuts win.

[wlvrne]

I suppose Tantum and Grimm believe that Holmes would have beaten Rocky.

[Grimm]

I heard plenty of stories about this, but like 30 seconds ago I actually got to see some of it and it shows Marciano knocking Ali out.

Not that this is realistic or anything but I think this film was released in france or something.

Grimm,
You know that in their primes,the Great Marciano,would have pummeled Clay into a disfigured pile of flesh.They fight 100 times,Marciano over Clay 100 times,ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
zuru

I was talking about the 50 year old Marciano against the Ali in the 70's.

[Seamus]

Grimm

Doug Jones and Joe Bugner definitely were NOT bums !

Ali had too much hand and foot speed, not to mention reach and power for Marciano. The 60's version of Ali would have won something like 148-137. If it's the Kinshasa Ali though, than it's the Greatest in no more than 6 rounds.

[KO Artist]

I reckon Marciano would stop Ali between somewhere after round 11.

A prime Ali would box circles round the clumsy footed Marciano. Marciano had trouble with good boxers and they don't get much better or faster than Ali. Remember Marciano marked up bad and if anyone was going to be stopped it would likely be Marciano on cuts.

No one stopped Ali (i'm not counting Holmes because Ali was well past it then) so I don't see Marciano doing it.

My thinking is Ali on points or a stoppage on cuts win.

No one beat Marciano, let alone stopped him!

[BoxBuzz]

Marciano would have been easily outpointed by Ali. It's just as close to a sure bet as any theoretical could ever get.

[Rory McCloskey]

i dont see how a 1967 ali..a prime ali..is beaten by larry holmes... i just dont see it. ali is to quick to strong n just flat out to good.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

I reckon Marciano would stop Ali between somewhere after round 11.

A prime Ali would box circles round the clumsy footed Marciano. Marciano had trouble with good boxers and they don't get much better or faster than Ali. Remember Marciano marked up bad and if anyone was going to be stopped it would likely be Marciano on cuts.

No one stopped Ali (i'm not counting Holmes because Ali was well past it then) so I don't see Marciano doing it.

My thinking is Ali on points or a stoppage on cuts win.

ali had trouble with frazier, who in some cases is a lot like the rock.


marciano was never stopped on cuts, so dont expect it to happen. cooper cut a lot worse than rocky did.



but lets get back to the subject, were taalking about the computer fight

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Frazier's better than Marciano, and Ali was past his prime.

i wouldnt say fraziers better than marciano, u can certianly make a case for either fighter. both were top 10 heavyweights of all time