off topic the Boxrec official rugby thread.

J · Post by J » 07 Nov 2005, 09:48

states wrote:I think we can safely say that the All Black 'Grand Slam' is on. When they come to Twickenham, Moody needs to hit Carter as late as possible within the first few minutes, imo. England ain't going to win, that's for sure. Robinson is not the man to lead England back to the summit, he's too closely wed to the players and ideas of the Woodward era. Although next week should be interesting, because Australia look pretty average right now.

Wales were poor. I know they'd have struggled anyway, even with a full-strength squad, but I can see them having problems in the 6 nations as well. Although Gareth Thomas, who I've always considered to be more carthorse than thoroughbred impressed me. Moving to France seems to have improved his allround game a fair bit.

As for the pink shirts, J, I thought it was just some marketing gimmick?

NO MY FRENCH COLLEAGUE TELLS ME THE NEW CHAIRMAN IS GAY!

hece the pink shirts, i shit you not. Stade have also lost both games they have played in pink.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 07 Nov 2005, 10:00

J, Thompson's a unit but he's too tall to scrum well. He's forever pulling his Pop-Up Pirate tricks. Will be easier scrumming with the taller Vickery as opposed to White, though. Plus Sheridan's a tall feller too.

Didn't know that about the pink shirts. Something of a shocker there.

J · Post by J » 07 Nov 2005, 10:01

yip but as you say you have a 6.2 and 6.5 pair of props now.

you can talk technically to me about front row play but ill just give a virtual glazed stare, by my own admission ive never understood how anyone would want to play there let alone geting to grips with the techinical side.

back row play is a bit different and to an extent line out, all involve a scrum half and need his understanding to be successful. the scrum you put the ball in on the tap and wait at the other end thats as much as you need to know about the front row

.

scrummaging i have no clue really.

its nice to see Darren Crompton a regular for Bristol though my old mate has been turning a few props inside out according to the papers. Mind you thats what he is there for, its sure isnt his mobility.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 07 Nov 2005, 10:19

England 15 (if i'm in charge)

1. Sheriden
2. Mears
3. Vickery
4. Grewcock
5. Shaw (if unfit, Brown)
6. Moody
7. Sanderson
8. Corry (c)

9. Richards
10. Hodgson
11. Simpson Daniel
12. Abbott
13. Smith
14. Cueto
15. Lewsey

Again I can understand why people might go for Tindell ahead of Abbott

J · Post by J » 07 Nov 2005, 10:30

think i posted mine a while ago, but id have varndell in as well lewsey in the centre and forrester in the back row somewhere.

agree with richards at scrum half.

15/ van gis.
14 cueto
13 lewsey
12 tindell
11 varndell
10 charlie
9 richards
8 forrester
7 Sanderson (rees when he is fit)
6 lewis m.
5 grewcock
4 Corry
3/2/1 as is until 2nd line out is messed up by Thomspon then id bring mears on.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 07 Nov 2005, 10:45

I'd have Erinle on the bench as well. Not sure what that guy needs to do to get noticed.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 07 Nov 2005, 11:07

30 posts already and not a single mention of the recent England v NZ or GB v Australia RL matches. Aren't there any Northerners on this forum ?

J · Post by J » 07 Nov 2005, 11:29

league isnt such a big game here mate.

certianly not out of yorks and lancs.

i still like it mind but the super league takes too much out of the players imo for them to continue [playing tot he same standard .

the gt briotain team only had a week together.
its pro's vs ams when it comes to international in terms of set ups.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 07 Nov 2005, 11:30

I've watched all the tri-nations games, but GB have been dissappointing. Particualrly the ease with which NZ were scoring tries in the first test (without Vianikolo, Sonny Bill, or Hape). GB should have done better.

Without Long & Scully they're a bit crap I think. Deacon is woeful for GB and only Johnson, Fielden & Cunningham seem to be playing with any desire.

states · Post by **states** » 07 Nov 2005, 11:33

That England-NZ game yesterday was a bit of a mini classic, I was expecting the English to get a right tonking.

GB have been disappointing, but I always felt NZ and Australia looked the likely picks.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 07 Nov 2005, 11:56

I've only played RU because that's all we had in the US at the time (there's now in RL league on the East Coast) but always thought the 13 a side game was more exciting. I know people in Australia, France and even England are rather opinionated about the differences, but still I'm amazed at how many people attended the last RU World Cup and how few attended the last RL World Cup.

mikey h · Post by **mikey h** » 07 Nov 2005, 11:58

Sorry if this has already been posted, but this is the England team for Saturday -

England team: 15 Josh Lewsey (Wasps); 14 Mark Cueto (Sale), 13 Jamie Noon (Newcastle), 12 Mike Tindall (Gloucester), 11 Ben Cohen (Northampton); 10 Charlie Hodgson (Sale), 9 Matt Dawson (Wasps); 1 Andrew Sheridan (Sale), 2 Steve Thompson (Northampton), 3 Phil Vickery (Gloucester) ; 4 Danny Grewcock (Bath), 5 Steve Borthwick (Bath); 6 Pat Sanderson (Worcester), 7 Lewis Moody (Leicester), 8 Martin Corry (Leicester, captain).

Replacements: 16 Lee Mears (Bath), 17 Matt Stevens (Bath), 18 Louis Deacon (Leicester), 19 Chris Jones (Sale), 20 Harry Ellis (Leicester), 21 Olly Barkley (Bath), 22 Mark van Gisbergen (Wasps)

Dont think that is to bad a side, would have liked to have seen Ellis given a start but wont complain to much.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:14

It's far too predictable, expect to see Hodgson play over 10 crossfield kicks.

Outside of Lewsey there aren't enough gameline breakers in the backs, agree with J that if Smith isn't picked then Lewsey should play outside centre, he looked fantastic there for Wasps at the end of last season.

Who can we bring on to frighten the Aussies? Adding Forrester and Simpson Daniel to the bench at least would have given us so many more options.

Talking of league wouldn't mind Scully at outside centre, they can have Farrell back

states · Post by **states** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:18

Yes, the RFU could have poached someone better than a 30 year old, injured Farrell. Danny McGuire, anyone? There's someone who can break the gainline in midfield.

Robinson just seems too stuck in his ways. Now is the time to be changing things, in time for 2007 over in France. Playing like we did in 2003 isn't going to work, even if we had the personnel that we had then. Which we don't.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:22

Has Farrell played a single game (or even a minute?) yet?

He was "on the road to recovery" when I went to the London double-header at Twickenham on the opening day of the season...but not heard a thing since.

Big waste of money seemingly.

Coconut · Post by **Coconut** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:26

I'm a league fan (and Northerner) but the Brits look like game triers destined for failure. Been the case for an age. I love playing league but since I'm now London-based if I wanted to play to a decentish level then I'd be travelling millions of miles for away games. So I stick to union and only have a cheeky away game to the Channel Islands every year.

Was talking about Andy Farrell last night, actually. Ridiculous buy. The guy's getting a bit slower now (playing at prop, dammit) and his body's knocked around after playing at the top for 10, 12 years. So they sign him and then realise that the only place to play him is in the centres. And he's probably not quick enough.

Adrian Morley is a good, good player but we have precious few consistently world-class players now. Sinfield, Peacock, Morley, Sculthorpe and Kieran Cunningham (and maybe Keith Senior) are just about the only guys who put it in for us every time. And when they do have bad games we're stuffed.

League in Britain is very much hampered by its minority status but we also let ourselves down. Too many Aussies and Kiwis playing - fine, take the experienced ones but we're filling up with non-British players. These guys are often the big players in the club teams so we're not building flair players or team leaders for the Britain side.

Loftgroov, Sheridan frighten the Aussies. Sheridan frightens his own mother.

Loftgroov · Post by **Loftgroov** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:28

Imagine....

8. Andy Farrell
9. Sean Long
10. Jonny Wilkinson
11. Leon Pryce
12. Paul Sculthorpe
13. Danny McGuire
14. Mark Cueto
15. Josh Lewsey

The rest of the six nations would think the four horsemen had just arrived.

mikey h · Post by **mikey h** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:28

Cueto is a game breaker, forgot about Smith would have put him in instead of Noon.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:34

He's a great finisher but I don't fancy him making too many yards from the midfield.

I'd still have him but not Cohen as well. One or the other.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 07 Nov 2005, 12:50

Anyone else notice that Planet Rugby, which I thought was the best RU site on the web, has apparently pulled all there info on historical matches, lineups, scorers etc. Either that or they're doing quite a good job of hiding it.

J · Post by J » 07 Nov 2005, 13:25

Lenny Albert wrote:It's far too predictable, expect to see Hodgson play over 10 crossfield kicks.

Outside of Lewsey there aren't enough gameline breakers in the backs, agree with J that if Smith isn't picked then Lewsey should play outside centre, he looked fantastic there for Wasps at the end of last season.

Who can we bring on to frighten the Aussies? Adding Forrester and Simpson Daniel to the bench at least would have given us so many more options.

Talking of league wouldn't mind Scully at outside centre, they can have Farrell back

DO YOU KNOW WHAT IVE AGREED WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAY IN THIS POST! we nmeed a change to the thinking, do what france did and start building for the world cup. keeping the likes of Dawson et al aint good enough, they will be too old in 2 years. Negative selection in my mind.

and one of coach who knows they are playing for his job.

mikey h · Post by **mikey h** » 07 Nov 2005, 14:06

J wrote:
Lenny Albert wrote:It's far too predictable, expect to see Hodgson play over 10 crossfield kicks.

Outside of Lewsey there aren't enough gameline breakers in the backs, agree with J that if Smith isn't picked then Lewsey should play outside centre, he looked fantastic there for Wasps at the end of last season.

Who can we bring on to frighten the Aussies? Adding Forrester and Simpson Daniel to the bench at least would have given us so many more options.

Talking of league wouldn't mind Scully at outside centre, they can have Farrell back
DO YOU KNOW WHAT IVE AGREED WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAY IN THIS POST! we nmeed a change to the thinking, do what france did and start building for the world cup. keeping the likes of Dawson et al aint good enough, they will be too old in 2 years. Negative selection in my mind.

and one of coach who knows they are playing for his job.

Good points made here, but i think we maybe should have started re-building after the last world cup. It usually takes a long time to get a team to gel together and i fear we have left it to late for the next world cup. Question, does anyone think that Andy Robinson is the man for the job of re-building this England team, or if they were to get anyone else in who would be a good candidate for the job ? I think that he is in a no win situation because of the expectation levels after the world cup win in 2003.

Sale to win the Premiership and the Heinkin cup

Go Sharks.

J · Post by J » 07 Nov 2005, 14:17

well its no coincidence that the two teams that were the two most dominant sides in the world cup and in the run up to the world cup (i.e. a year or so b4) Aus and England are now struggling big time.

Doing well often means you hang on to your players a season too long and they get picked off that world cup perfromance as well . Look at Wilkinson for example being made captain I mean that was just daft.

I digress, basically no team has ever won the world cup back to back.

so this tells you it takes longer than four years to dismantle and re-assemble a team, and its coaches generic style of play etc.

Not only this you need a change of direction, the defence and offensive moves and tactics get worked out by teams so you have to evolve.

this is what england have struggled to do.

We havent changed the way we play and we have lost they guys that were best at effecting that old game plan.

so we are flawed on two fundamental basics of the game.

having an effective gameplan and secondly having the players to implement that gameplan.

England have neither and at present are wallowing in past glories, the players are solid and the league and heineken cup help bring them to a level thats neeeded so we wont get stuffed in some ways it takes getting dicked badly to ensure wholesale changes are looked at both in structure, personnel and tactics.

this is of course where Wales have done so well, they bounced back and changed they type of rugby played by Britiish national teams.

mikey h · Post by **mikey h** » 07 Nov 2005, 15:49

Agreed J that this England team is not wallowing in past glories, i just think that the level of expectation in the press and some fans has multipled since the 2003 wc. In context only 1 team has won the world cup more than once, so doing it back to back must be nearly impossible ! At the next world cup i think the 3 favourites will be NZ, France and SA and we have another tough pool, again drawing the South Africans.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 08 Nov 2005, 06:53

i think england should play their biggest, heaviest pack, stick the ball up the jumper and drive around the rucks. with all this super 12 stuff the nz`er`s have been playing they tend to spread their defence and when wales have run them really close recently the likes of jonathon thomas made big yards by driving around the fringes.
their backs all play like 7`s when it comes to the breakdown so any tackle situations wide out basically results in all black ball anyway.