I look forward to it! Just to have the published, what a remarkable achievement!
Can you give me some background on the process you used to gather the info and pull this together?
How deep did you dig? How hard was it to find credible sources, how did the process change your opinion of this guy? Also...regardless of his fighting skill, did you attempt to discern this guys character as well?
Purely curious.
Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Absolutely. It started more out of curiosity than anything. Jack Dempsey was my favorite fighter and years ago I had read an article in a magazine that made mention of this squirt who was nuts and sent Dempsey in the other direction. I found this unbelievable and was intrigued but was unable to find much information on him. There were the standard stories that have been repeated over and over for years and years but they didnt really give you an idea of what drove the guy, made him such a force, etc.
As time went by I had heard stories of various books being written on him but nothing ever went anywhere with them. The only book that had been published was written in the 40s and even before I discovered most of that was fiction I felt was kind of all over the place and left a lot of gaps in the story. Finally I just decided to head to the library and start looking up old newspaper microfilm for some of his fights. I had never done this before so I was unsure what I would find. I had no idea how extensive newspaper coverage of the sport was back then.
Very quickly I amassed quite a stack of clippings and by the time it got knee high I decided if nobody else could get a project on Greb finished why couldnt I? I very quickly made a couple of decisions about the direction of the book. First, I wanted to be comprehensive. The final word on Greb. There were two people who were my inspiration for this. One was Lyman Copeland Draper who was considered THE authority on Daniel Boone. This guy went to the ends of the earth tracking down every scrap of detail on Boone regardless of how minute or intimate. He could have probably told you what color Boone's underwear was (if he wore any). The problem was that Draper was so fanatical he died before his biography of Boone was finished. My other inspiration was John Y. Simon who edited the Grant Papers. He was considered the worlds foremost authority on Ulyses S. Grant.
I felt like if I was going to write about another man's life I better know his story better than anyone else. So I took it upon myself to pattern my research after these two men. As a result I tracked down public records, newspaper accounts, anyone living who had memory of the events (not many), snippets from various contemporary biographies, hired geneaologists (when I couldnt do my own research do to travel constraints), uncovered every scrap of film, every photo, etc etc. I very quickly came to understand that during the no decision era it was extremely important to get as many first hand accounts of events as possible. Most towns had at least one newspaper, even small towns sometimes had as many as three papers. I was a student at the time and had free access to interlibrary loan (and learned a trick whereby I could make copies of the newspaper articles for free) so essentially I very quickly amassed a room full of research material at no cost. If Greb fought in a town that had three newspapers I went out of my way to acquire the reports from those three newspapers. Pittsburgh had seven and whenever possible I got all seven newspapers. For most of Greb's career I got every article printed on him from every paper published in Pittsburgh. I tracked his movements across the country as he fought and travelled and made sure to check the newspapers at the various whistle stops he stayed at for interviews, photos, etc. When he vacationed somewhere I followed the newspapers there to see if he was covered. In short I wanted to know everything.
With that mountain of material I can say my opinion of Greb totally changed. Changed completely. In every way shape and form. He was always painted in the popular magazines (and still is when he is written about) as this rip snorting wild man who simply tore into opponents. Kind of like a busier Jake LaMotta who soaked up punishment in order to dish it out. He is often discribed as a drunken womanizer who loved to fight and never trained. A debauched ne'er do well who didnt care for rules and bent them when he had a chance. He wasnt like that at all in any respect. In his prime he was renowned for his speed and endurance because he would dance in and out as fast as a bantamweight. Fighters couldnt land a punch on his head. Over and over you find reports, dozens of them, that state opponents didnt land more than five, ten, or a dozen punches over the course of 10 or 15 rounds.
He trained like a demon, sometimes he trained so hard that his manager would have to make him break off for fear he would burn himself out and show up for fights stale, for one fight he trained with the amateur champion marathon runner and planned to run in a marathon following the bout. For another bout in one day he sparred something like 15 rounds against five opponents then jumped rope, hit the speed bag, heavy bag, and shadow boxed WITH NO BREAK BETWEEN ROUNDS. I would challenge any fighter today to try that. If youve never boxed that may not seem that impressive but its a rare feat I assure you. He was also uncanny in his ability to size up fighters, determine their strengths and weaknesses, and how to exploit them. He would go to training camps for a fight coming up that he intended to watch, watch both fighters, and then make a prediction on how the fight would play out and I only found two instances where he was wrong. In the numerous cases where he was right he predicted almost to the round how the fight would end and just how it would play out. He had a remarkable head for that sort of thing.
He rarely drank and when he did he didnt get more than a little tipsy if even that. He was only really called a dirty fighter when he lost the sight in his eye. This was because he lost depth perception, he then developed a tactic where he would grip a guy around the back of the head with his left hand and bang away at the body and head. This of course is an illegal tactic but relatively minor compared to how Greb is painted today and it was a tactic borne out of necessity. He was a family man and a church goer who donated thousands to local catholic church in Pittsburgh. The women that were later written about seen with him before fights were typically his sisters and/or his girlfriend (after his wife died). He had women in his life sure but what man among us doesnt when we can and he certainly wasnt the sex crazed maniac he is sometimes portrayed as, screwing women in his dressing room before bouts (a ridiculous notion as an amendment to the Walker Law in 1923 banned anyone but a fighters handlers from being in his dressing room before a bout. Such facts are often lost in the hyperbole of the old days).
Essentially Greb was a guy who caught the boxing bug. He didnt have to box. He came from a lower middle class family and probably would have made a decent wage outside of the sport. But he caught the bug, like many of us who spend hours online talking about what only a guy like Greb could do, and he was hooked. He was told numerous times early on that he wouldnt make it. He was awkward and amateurish and had a funny looking style. He was knocked out in his first year as a pro. BUT, he stuck to it. He didnt give up and that same drive and competitiveness that kept him at the sport also allowed him learn, grow, and adapt. Over the course of a few years the guy developed into a fighter that could handle any style an opponent brought at him regardless of their size. And he just kept going. He kept on learning, and getting better and by the time he leveled out he was one of the greatest fighters the sport had known (and was already acknowledged by some as just that in his own lifetime) and was making a good living at it. He wanted the riches but admirably his legacy was more important to him. This guy was a true fans fighter because he actively sought out the best in order to prove himself, rarely quibbling over money in the process. He didnt just want to make a quick buck and cash out. He wanted to be remembered and thats why we still talk about his record today, he accomplished that much.
My take on him is that he was, for most of his career, a care free fun loving kid who was very competetive, loved boxing, and wanted to be the best at it. During the last three years of his life he started to feel the weight of his age more. As issues both inside and outside of the ring took their toll he lost something. He simply wasnt the same but he was still so damn good that he was better than most even at the last. At the end of his life I think he saw darkness closing in on him both literally and figuratively and I often wonder what would have happened had he lived. As sad as it is I dont see his life playing out any other way. I really dont think he was long for this world in the fall of 1926 with or without that car accident.
As time went by I had heard stories of various books being written on him but nothing ever went anywhere with them. The only book that had been published was written in the 40s and even before I discovered most of that was fiction I felt was kind of all over the place and left a lot of gaps in the story. Finally I just decided to head to the library and start looking up old newspaper microfilm for some of his fights. I had never done this before so I was unsure what I would find. I had no idea how extensive newspaper coverage of the sport was back then.
Very quickly I amassed quite a stack of clippings and by the time it got knee high I decided if nobody else could get a project on Greb finished why couldnt I? I very quickly made a couple of decisions about the direction of the book. First, I wanted to be comprehensive. The final word on Greb. There were two people who were my inspiration for this. One was Lyman Copeland Draper who was considered THE authority on Daniel Boone. This guy went to the ends of the earth tracking down every scrap of detail on Boone regardless of how minute or intimate. He could have probably told you what color Boone's underwear was (if he wore any). The problem was that Draper was so fanatical he died before his biography of Boone was finished. My other inspiration was John Y. Simon who edited the Grant Papers. He was considered the worlds foremost authority on Ulyses S. Grant.
I felt like if I was going to write about another man's life I better know his story better than anyone else. So I took it upon myself to pattern my research after these two men. As a result I tracked down public records, newspaper accounts, anyone living who had memory of the events (not many), snippets from various contemporary biographies, hired geneaologists (when I couldnt do my own research do to travel constraints), uncovered every scrap of film, every photo, etc etc. I very quickly came to understand that during the no decision era it was extremely important to get as many first hand accounts of events as possible. Most towns had at least one newspaper, even small towns sometimes had as many as three papers. I was a student at the time and had free access to interlibrary loan (and learned a trick whereby I could make copies of the newspaper articles for free) so essentially I very quickly amassed a room full of research material at no cost. If Greb fought in a town that had three newspapers I went out of my way to acquire the reports from those three newspapers. Pittsburgh had seven and whenever possible I got all seven newspapers. For most of Greb's career I got every article printed on him from every paper published in Pittsburgh. I tracked his movements across the country as he fought and travelled and made sure to check the newspapers at the various whistle stops he stayed at for interviews, photos, etc. When he vacationed somewhere I followed the newspapers there to see if he was covered. In short I wanted to know everything.
With that mountain of material I can say my opinion of Greb totally changed. Changed completely. In every way shape and form. He was always painted in the popular magazines (and still is when he is written about) as this rip snorting wild man who simply tore into opponents. Kind of like a busier Jake LaMotta who soaked up punishment in order to dish it out. He is often discribed as a drunken womanizer who loved to fight and never trained. A debauched ne'er do well who didnt care for rules and bent them when he had a chance. He wasnt like that at all in any respect. In his prime he was renowned for his speed and endurance because he would dance in and out as fast as a bantamweight. Fighters couldnt land a punch on his head. Over and over you find reports, dozens of them, that state opponents didnt land more than five, ten, or a dozen punches over the course of 10 or 15 rounds.
He trained like a demon, sometimes he trained so hard that his manager would have to make him break off for fear he would burn himself out and show up for fights stale, for one fight he trained with the amateur champion marathon runner and planned to run in a marathon following the bout. For another bout in one day he sparred something like 15 rounds against five opponents then jumped rope, hit the speed bag, heavy bag, and shadow boxed WITH NO BREAK BETWEEN ROUNDS. I would challenge any fighter today to try that. If youve never boxed that may not seem that impressive but its a rare feat I assure you. He was also uncanny in his ability to size up fighters, determine their strengths and weaknesses, and how to exploit them. He would go to training camps for a fight coming up that he intended to watch, watch both fighters, and then make a prediction on how the fight would play out and I only found two instances where he was wrong. In the numerous cases where he was right he predicted almost to the round how the fight would end and just how it would play out. He had a remarkable head for that sort of thing.
He rarely drank and when he did he didnt get more than a little tipsy if even that. He was only really called a dirty fighter when he lost the sight in his eye. This was because he lost depth perception, he then developed a tactic where he would grip a guy around the back of the head with his left hand and bang away at the body and head. This of course is an illegal tactic but relatively minor compared to how Greb is painted today and it was a tactic borne out of necessity. He was a family man and a church goer who donated thousands to local catholic church in Pittsburgh. The women that were later written about seen with him before fights were typically his sisters and/or his girlfriend (after his wife died). He had women in his life sure but what man among us doesnt when we can and he certainly wasnt the sex crazed maniac he is sometimes portrayed as, screwing women in his dressing room before bouts (a ridiculous notion as an amendment to the Walker Law in 1923 banned anyone but a fighters handlers from being in his dressing room before a bout. Such facts are often lost in the hyperbole of the old days).
Essentially Greb was a guy who caught the boxing bug. He didnt have to box. He came from a lower middle class family and probably would have made a decent wage outside of the sport. But he caught the bug, like many of us who spend hours online talking about what only a guy like Greb could do, and he was hooked. He was told numerous times early on that he wouldnt make it. He was awkward and amateurish and had a funny looking style. He was knocked out in his first year as a pro. BUT, he stuck to it. He didnt give up and that same drive and competitiveness that kept him at the sport also allowed him learn, grow, and adapt. Over the course of a few years the guy developed into a fighter that could handle any style an opponent brought at him regardless of their size. And he just kept going. He kept on learning, and getting better and by the time he leveled out he was one of the greatest fighters the sport had known (and was already acknowledged by some as just that in his own lifetime) and was making a good living at it. He wanted the riches but admirably his legacy was more important to him. This guy was a true fans fighter because he actively sought out the best in order to prove himself, rarely quibbling over money in the process. He didnt just want to make a quick buck and cash out. He wanted to be remembered and thats why we still talk about his record today, he accomplished that much.
My take on him is that he was, for most of his career, a care free fun loving kid who was very competetive, loved boxing, and wanted to be the best at it. During the last three years of his life he started to feel the weight of his age more. As issues both inside and outside of the ring took their toll he lost something. He simply wasnt the same but he was still so damn good that he was better than most even at the last. At the end of his life I think he saw darkness closing in on him both literally and figuratively and I often wonder what would have happened had he lived. As sad as it is I dont see his life playing out any other way. I really dont think he was long for this world in the fall of 1926 with or without that car accident.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
I'll definitely be wanting a copy of your book sirklompton wrote:Absolutely. It started more out of curiosity than anything. Jack Dempsey was my favorite fighter and years ago I had read an article in a magazine that made mention of this squirt who was nuts and sent Dempsey in the other direction. I found this unbelievable and was intrigued but was unable to find much information on him. There were the standard stories that have been repeated over and over for years and years but they didnt really give you an idea of what drove the guy, made him such a force, etc.
As time went by I had heard stories of various books being written on him but nothing ever went anywhere with them. The only book that had been published was written in the 40s and even before I discovered most of that was fiction I felt was kind of all over the place and left a lot of gaps in the story. Finally I just decided to head to the library and start looking up old newspaper microfilm for some of his fights. I had never done this before so I was unsure what I would find. I had no idea how extensive newspaper coverage of the sport was back then.
Very quickly I amassed quite a stack of clippings and by the time it got knee high I decided if nobody else could get a project on Greb finished why couldnt I? I very quickly made a couple of decisions about the direction of the book. First, I wanted to be comprehensive. The final word on Greb. There were two people who were my inspiration for this. One was Lyman Copeland Draper who was considered THE authority on Daniel Boone. This guy went to the ends of the earth tracking down every scrap of detail on Boone regardless of how minute or intimate. He could have probably told you what color Boone's underwear was (if he wore any). The problem was that Draper was so fanatical he died before his biography of Boone was finished. My other inspiration was John Y. Simon who edited the Grant Papers. He was considered the worlds foremost authority on Ulyses S. Grant.
I felt like if I was going to write about another man's life I better know his story better than anyone else. So I took it upon myself to pattern my research after these two men. As a result I tracked down public records, newspaper accounts, anyone living who had memory of the events (not many), snippets from various contemporary biographies, hired geneaologists (when I couldnt do my own research do to travel constraints), uncovered every scrap of film, every photo, etc etc. I very quickly came to understand that during the no decision era it was extremely important to get as many first hand accounts of events as possible. Most towns had at least one newspaper, even small towns sometimes had as many as three papers. I was a student at the time and had free access to interlibrary loan (and learned a trick whereby I could make copies of the newspaper articles for free) so essentially I very quickly amassed a room full of research material at no cost. If Greb fought in a town that had three newspapers I went out of my way to acquire the reports from those three newspapers. Pittsburgh had seven and whenever possible I got all seven newspapers. For most of Greb's career I got every article printed on him from every paper published in Pittsburgh. I tracked his movements across the country as he fought and travelled and made sure to check the newspapers at the various whistle stops he stayed at for interviews, photos, etc. When he vacationed somewhere I followed the newspapers there to see if he was covered. In short I wanted to know everything.
With that mountain of material I can say my opinion of Greb totally changed. Changed completely. In every way shape and form. He was always painted in the popular magazines (and still is when he is written about) as this rip snorting wild man who simply tore into opponents. Kind of like a busier Jake LaMotta who soaked up punishment in order to dish it out. He is often discribed as a drunken womanizer who loved to fight and never trained. A debauched ne'er do well who didnt care for rules and bent them when he had a chance. He wasnt like that at all in any respect. In his prime he was renowned for his speed and endurance because he would dance in and out as fast as a bantamweight. Fighters couldnt land a punch on his head. Over and over you find reports, dozens of them, that state opponents didnt land more than five, ten, or a dozen punches over the course of 10 or 15 rounds.
He trained like a demon, sometimes he trained so hard that his manager would have to make him break off for fear he would burn himself out and show up for fights stale, for one fight he trained with the amateur champion marathon runner and planned to run in a marathon following the bout. For another bout in one day he sparred something like 15 rounds against five opponents then jumped rope, hit the speed bag, heavy bag, and shadow boxed WITH NO BREAK BETWEEN ROUNDS. I would challenge any fighter today to try that. If youve never boxed that may not seem that impressive but its a rare feat I assure you. He was also uncanny in his ability to size up fighters, determine their strengths and weaknesses, and how to exploit them. He would go to training camps for a fight coming up that he intended to watch, watch both fighters, and then make a prediction on how the fight would play out and I only found two instances where he was wrong. In the numerous cases where he was right he predicted almost to the round how the fight would end and just how it would play out. He had a remarkable head for that sort of thing.
He rarely drank and when he did he didnt get more than a little tipsy if even that. He was only really called a dirty fighter when he lost the sight in his eye. This was because he lost depth perception, he then developed a tactic where he would grip a guy around the back of the head with his left hand and bang away at the body and head. This of course is an illegal tactic but relatively minor compared to how Greb is painted today and it was a tactic borne out of necessity. He was a family man and a church goer who donated thousands to local catholic church in Pittsburgh. The women that were later written about seen with him before fights were typically his sisters and/or his girlfriend (after his wife died). He had women in his life sure but what man among us doesnt when we can and he certainly wasnt the sex crazed maniac he is sometimes portrayed as, screwing women in his dressing room before bouts (a ridiculous notion as an amendment to the Walker Law in 1923 banned anyone but a fighters handlers from being in his dressing room before a bout. Such facts are often lost in the hyperbole of the old days).
Essentially Greb was a guy who caught the boxing bug. He didnt have to box. He came from a lower middle class family and probably would have made a decent wage outside of the sport. But he caught the bug, like many of us who spend hours online talking about what only a guy like Greb could do, and he was hooked. He was told numerous times early on that he wouldnt make it. He was awkward and amateurish and had a funny looking style. He was knocked out in his first year as a pro. BUT, he stuck to it. He didnt give up and that same drive and competitiveness that kept him at the sport also allowed him learn, grow, and adapt. Over the course of a few years the guy developed into a fighter that could handle any style an opponent brought at him regardless of their size. And he just kept going. He kept on learning, and getting better and by the time he leveled out he was one of the greatest fighters the sport had known (and was already acknowledged by some as just that in his own lifetime) and was making a good living at it. He wanted the riches but admirably his legacy was more important to him. This guy was a true fans fighter because he actively sought out the best in order to prove himself, rarely quibbling over money in the process. He didnt just want to make a quick buck and cash out. He wanted to be remembered and thats why we still talk about his record today, he accomplished that much.
My take on him is that he was, for most of his career, a care free fun loving kid who was very competetive, loved boxing, and wanted to be the best at it. During the last three years of his life he started to feel the weight of his age more. As issues both inside and outside of the ring took their toll he lost something. He simply wasnt the same but he was still so damn good that he was better than most even at the last. At the end of his life I think he saw darkness closing in on him both literally and figuratively and I often wonder what would have happened had he lived. As sad as it is I dont see his life playing out any other way. I really dont think he was long for this world in the fall of 1926 with or without that car accident.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
I should also add that another thing I felt was incredibly important to understanding Greb and his greatness was to give the reader a greater understanding of Greb's opposition from top to bottom. Greb is known for his deep resume but even some of the fights that might look pedestrian to someone not familiar with the opponent or the era were often important for one reason or another. As such I have tried to do a service to his opponents by laying out fairly clearly their standing, ability, and some biographical or anectdotal information. To this end I think there is probably more written in this book on many of these guys than at any time since they were active. When I say this is the "Life and Times of Harry Greb" it truly is. You will come away with a very clear understanding of the context of the day in general and specifically to boxing as a whole.
Last edited by klompton on 23 Aug 2013, 00:10, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
What were his 5 defining fights? Or five defining opponents?
Yeah...I know..."buy the book and find out" right? lol
Yeah...I know..."buy the book and find out" right? lol
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
I think in the order they happened:
Joe Chip 1: A lot of fighters take a first loss hard and never can come back from it. I dont know how many fans realize how much this can change the trajectory of a career. A KO loss, a bad knockout like Greb suffered, can be devestating. Yet he was back in the ring very quickly and ready for action. I really think this was important for Greb's mental toughness. He got his ass kicked and just kept on going, it was a speed bump for him. Thats damn impressive considering how far he went afterwards.
Willie KO Brennan 2/Battling Levinsky 1: This is a tie. Willie KO Brennan was hugely important. More important than people realize today. Buffalo was a fantastic fight town at this time. It was kind of a gateway city to the big time. If you fought in Buffalo and made it you were going to get publicity and you were going to get bigger fights. Willie KO Brennan was Buffalo's boy. He was their idol and their most popular fighter and he was damn good too. Greb had beaten him easily in Erie and Buffalo couldnt believe it. They figured it was a fluke and invited Greb there for a rematch. He put on a great show against Brennan and Buffalo fell in love with him. He became immensely popular there and thats the fight that basically propelled him toward a national identity. Look at his record before Brennan and he was basically a regional club fighter. Look at his record after Brennan and within months he was a contender for the title. Thats all a direct result of the Brennan bout. His bout with Levinsky is important because it was his first bout against a bigger guy who was talented and just happened to be a standing champion. Levinsky outweighed Greb by an estimated 15 to 20 pounds and Greb came within a whisker of knocking him out in the final round and winning the championship. I think that fight was important to Greb because it showed him that size didnt matter, at least not to him, and we all know Greb is now famous for his willingness to face the big boys.
Tommy Gibbons 4: There is no disputing that this was Greb's most important fight during his lifetime. It gave him the most publicity and skyrocketed him to fame. He was a genuine sensation afterwards. The bout was an eliminator for the title, it was staged by Tex Rickard, and was highly publicized and anticipated. Yet, Gibbons victory was seen as a foregone conclusion. Greb was simply too small and didnt hit hard enough to faze Tommy. Gibbons came into the fight as the favorite. George Engel, in a bit of tactical brilliance, used the fact that Gibbons was a heavy favorite to demand a higher a purse for Greb (essentially he said if my fighter is going to take a beating in order to boost Gibbons into a title shot we want to get paid for it). When it came time to fight Greb whipped Gibbons ass, mostly dominated the fight, won a sensational decision (with Dempsey ringside and calling it the greatest display he had ever seen and Greb one of the toughest fighters) and got the lions share of the purse to boot. Afterwards he was asked to write a series of syndicated columns, he was met at home by a massive mob, performed on stage for a month, and was basically treated like a champion.
Johnny Wilson 1: On the one hand this fight was a foregone conclusion. Almost everybody, including Wilson, knew that the instant Greb and Wilson were looking across the ring at each other Greb was going to win. However, almost everybody, including Greb, knew that if Greb ever wanted to be recognized as middleweight champion of the world he was going to have to beat Wilson. Not Bryan Downey, not Dave Rosenberg, or anyone else that the NYSAC called a champion after they banned Wilson. So this was an important legacy fight on paper, even if it wasnt a terribly threatening one in reality.
Mickey Walker: This kind of cemented to the doubters that Greb was an all time great fighter who wasnt going to be unseated by anyone until he was well past his best (which he already was here). A lot of people picked Walker to beat Greb. They figured Greb was old, ring worn, and ripe for the picking. In 1924 he had let his condition slip a bit and not many people felt he could get it back for a tough little monster like Walker who was fast, young, could punch, box, and was durable and tenacious. Greb got himself into terrific shape and let Walker break himself against the faster, stronger, and incredibly durable Greb. After the early rounds Greb took over, wore out the little man, and proceeded to leave Walker a broken, bloody, swollen, and literally sobbing mess after the fight. When people saw what Greb had done to Walker they basically threw up their hands and said "I give up, fine, I believe it. The guy is great."
A lot of people would say Gene Tunney 1 was a legacy fight for Greb but I personally dont subscribe to that belief. First Tunney was not yet in his prime (not that I dont think Greb has the best of him prime for prime, and did get the best of him over their series). Second Tunney at the time of their first fight was considered a protected fighter who was not expected to beat Greb. So that fight wasnt really that important of a win at the time. Tunney's standing in the boxing community increased BECAUSE of the Greb fights (despite the presses protestations that Greb had won three of the five). It wasnt until he had met Greb numerous times that he had actually proved himself to naysayers as a real fighter. So in the first Greb fight that outcome wasnt really unexpected. Greb, for a certainty, had no doubt that the first time he met Tunney he was going to whip him up one side of the ring and down the other. In retrospect it has become a very important win for Greb's legacy based largely on Tunney being somewhat overrated and the myth that he only lost one fight, that being to Greb (when in reality he lost three fights to Greb).
Joe Chip 1: A lot of fighters take a first loss hard and never can come back from it. I dont know how many fans realize how much this can change the trajectory of a career. A KO loss, a bad knockout like Greb suffered, can be devestating. Yet he was back in the ring very quickly and ready for action. I really think this was important for Greb's mental toughness. He got his ass kicked and just kept on going, it was a speed bump for him. Thats damn impressive considering how far he went afterwards.
Willie KO Brennan 2/Battling Levinsky 1: This is a tie. Willie KO Brennan was hugely important. More important than people realize today. Buffalo was a fantastic fight town at this time. It was kind of a gateway city to the big time. If you fought in Buffalo and made it you were going to get publicity and you were going to get bigger fights. Willie KO Brennan was Buffalo's boy. He was their idol and their most popular fighter and he was damn good too. Greb had beaten him easily in Erie and Buffalo couldnt believe it. They figured it was a fluke and invited Greb there for a rematch. He put on a great show against Brennan and Buffalo fell in love with him. He became immensely popular there and thats the fight that basically propelled him toward a national identity. Look at his record before Brennan and he was basically a regional club fighter. Look at his record after Brennan and within months he was a contender for the title. Thats all a direct result of the Brennan bout. His bout with Levinsky is important because it was his first bout against a bigger guy who was talented and just happened to be a standing champion. Levinsky outweighed Greb by an estimated 15 to 20 pounds and Greb came within a whisker of knocking him out in the final round and winning the championship. I think that fight was important to Greb because it showed him that size didnt matter, at least not to him, and we all know Greb is now famous for his willingness to face the big boys.
Tommy Gibbons 4: There is no disputing that this was Greb's most important fight during his lifetime. It gave him the most publicity and skyrocketed him to fame. He was a genuine sensation afterwards. The bout was an eliminator for the title, it was staged by Tex Rickard, and was highly publicized and anticipated. Yet, Gibbons victory was seen as a foregone conclusion. Greb was simply too small and didnt hit hard enough to faze Tommy. Gibbons came into the fight as the favorite. George Engel, in a bit of tactical brilliance, used the fact that Gibbons was a heavy favorite to demand a higher a purse for Greb (essentially he said if my fighter is going to take a beating in order to boost Gibbons into a title shot we want to get paid for it). When it came time to fight Greb whipped Gibbons ass, mostly dominated the fight, won a sensational decision (with Dempsey ringside and calling it the greatest display he had ever seen and Greb one of the toughest fighters) and got the lions share of the purse to boot. Afterwards he was asked to write a series of syndicated columns, he was met at home by a massive mob, performed on stage for a month, and was basically treated like a champion.
Johnny Wilson 1: On the one hand this fight was a foregone conclusion. Almost everybody, including Wilson, knew that the instant Greb and Wilson were looking across the ring at each other Greb was going to win. However, almost everybody, including Greb, knew that if Greb ever wanted to be recognized as middleweight champion of the world he was going to have to beat Wilson. Not Bryan Downey, not Dave Rosenberg, or anyone else that the NYSAC called a champion after they banned Wilson. So this was an important legacy fight on paper, even if it wasnt a terribly threatening one in reality.
Mickey Walker: This kind of cemented to the doubters that Greb was an all time great fighter who wasnt going to be unseated by anyone until he was well past his best (which he already was here). A lot of people picked Walker to beat Greb. They figured Greb was old, ring worn, and ripe for the picking. In 1924 he had let his condition slip a bit and not many people felt he could get it back for a tough little monster like Walker who was fast, young, could punch, box, and was durable and tenacious. Greb got himself into terrific shape and let Walker break himself against the faster, stronger, and incredibly durable Greb. After the early rounds Greb took over, wore out the little man, and proceeded to leave Walker a broken, bloody, swollen, and literally sobbing mess after the fight. When people saw what Greb had done to Walker they basically threw up their hands and said "I give up, fine, I believe it. The guy is great."
A lot of people would say Gene Tunney 1 was a legacy fight for Greb but I personally dont subscribe to that belief. First Tunney was not yet in his prime (not that I dont think Greb has the best of him prime for prime, and did get the best of him over their series). Second Tunney at the time of their first fight was considered a protected fighter who was not expected to beat Greb. So that fight wasnt really that important of a win at the time. Tunney's standing in the boxing community increased BECAUSE of the Greb fights (despite the presses protestations that Greb had won three of the five). It wasnt until he had met Greb numerous times that he had actually proved himself to naysayers as a real fighter. So in the first Greb fight that outcome wasnt really unexpected. Greb, for a certainty, had no doubt that the first time he met Tunney he was going to whip him up one side of the ring and down the other. In retrospect it has become a very important win for Greb's legacy based largely on Tunney being somewhat overrated and the myth that he only lost one fight, that being to Greb (when in reality he lost three fights to Greb).
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Many thanks for all this. Really appreciate it.
Is there a story in Greb’s personal life that pushed him on? His early death was a real tragedy…is it one that’s keenly felt in the US?
Is there a story in Greb’s personal life that pushed him on? His early death was a real tragedy…is it one that’s keenly felt in the US?
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
I dont think his death is felt at all today. At the time it was pretty shocking. Nobody really saw it coming. It made the front page of newspapers all over the country. His funeral was filmed for the newsreel cameras and accompanied by massive crowds, I have several photos of it in my book.
When you ask if there was a story in his life that pushed him on what do you mean? Do you mean motivated him? Or do you refer to my belief that he wouldnt have lived long regardless?
When you ask if there was a story in his life that pushed him on what do you mean? Do you mean motivated him? Or do you refer to my belief that he wouldnt have lived long regardless?
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Yes, a motivation. A human angle to his brilliance.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
He was just really competetive and wanted to be the best. I mean he really, really wanted to prove himself. I think early on it had to do with so many people telling him he would never make it. Hes one of those guys that blocked out the 80% who were saying he wasnt any good and only paid attention to the positive press. Later on in life when someone wrote something like he lost to Tunney or something like that it really just ate away at him. He couldnt stand it. He would want to get that guy back into the ring a week later and prove to everyone that he could beat him. You could latch onto the human side of the story and say later on that he was a widower and had to support his daughter. He said this numerous times. No doubt theres some truth to it. But we all know that a lot of these fighter, even when they are old men, cant shake that bug. They need to know that they are the biggest dog on the block. Look at Bob Foster. Even today as a crotchety old man if you ask him "How would a fight between you and Roy Jones go?" Hed answer in a very simple: "Id knock him out." "What about a fight with Michael Spinks?" "Id knock him out." Or Joe Frazier when practically blind and middle aged stated that he could get into shape and beat a prime Mike Tyson. Thats the type of guy Greb was. He just couldnt stand the thought of anyone being better than him. Its one of the things I love about him. He was the type of fighter that fans live for. He wasnt in it JUST to make a buck, that was kind of the icing on the cake. He was in it to prove himself and thats why his record looks almost ridiculous for its depth and activity.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Interesting stuff.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Best of luck with the book. Probably one of the most researched books on boxing ever done.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Bumped it for you Klompy
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Any info at all on the Rosenbloom fight? Was this considered an upset? Was it well attended or was there any interest in it at the time? I think I've read different accounts, which accounts have you taken more seriously? I believe there was a mix of writers who told somewhat different stories.
How do you determine the more credible viewpoints?
Is there another fighter you'd like to write about? Or will you switch subjects altogether?
How do you determine the more credible viewpoints?
Is there another fighter you'd like to write about? Or will you switch subjects altogether?
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Yes I discuss the Rosenbloom fight. No it was not an upset. Greb dominated him easily and carried him. He could have stopped Rosenbloom. I havent found any contemporary articles that stated Greb did anything but win easily.
I only use first hand accounts, with the exception of a couple of fights that took place on a saturday in a small town that didnt have newspaper coverage the following day (due to no newspapers being published on sundays).
I am helping a friend of mine with a book about the Harry Wills-Jack Dempsey situation. I am also working on a photo book comprised of square off photos. I am also interested in possibly doing a book on the Harpe brothers, which has nothing to do with boxing.
I only use first hand accounts, with the exception of a couple of fights that took place on a saturday in a small town that didnt have newspaper coverage the following day (due to no newspapers being published on sundays).
I am helping a friend of mine with a book about the Harry Wills-Jack Dempsey situation. I am also working on a photo book comprised of square off photos. I am also interested in possibly doing a book on the Harpe brothers, which has nothing to do with boxing.
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Here is the link to barnes and noble, they beat Amazon and got my photo up first.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/live-fa ... 0615805757
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/live-fa ... 0615805757
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Excellent cover montage!
Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb UPDAT
Hi Guys, just wanted to let everyone know that today Amazon put my book on sale. Its a great price. 30% off. I would recommend jumping on it.
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misterpunch
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Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
klomp, you write like a dream. this is a must get book
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
While looking at various records (including U.S. Census ones) on Ancestry.com, I came away with the impression that Harry Greb's father probably did quite well economically compared to many other fathers of famous fighters. Greb's father, Pius, was a German-born stonemason who owned his home as early as 1900. In 1930, Pius's home had a stated value of $10,000., which was at least twice what an average American home was worth at the time. Pius also traveled to Europe at least twice when he was of retirement age.
According to records, Pius was born in 1860 and came to the U.S. during the early 1880s. As a result, I wonder if Pius went through an apprenticeship as a stonemason in Germany before coming to the U.S. As someone who worked in machine shops for twenty years, I met some highly skilled German-born toolmakers in addition to learning about how so many
Germans learned their trades through apprenticeship programs, giving them a tremendous advantage.
While I was at it, I looked up three of Harry Greb's sisters to find out how they and their husbands fared economically. It appeared that they weren't rich, but apparently still did better than average.
- Chuck Johnston
According to records, Pius was born in 1860 and came to the U.S. during the early 1880s. As a result, I wonder if Pius went through an apprenticeship as a stonemason in Germany before coming to the U.S. As someone who worked in machine shops for twenty years, I met some highly skilled German-born toolmakers in addition to learning about how so many
Germans learned their trades through apprenticeship programs, giving them a tremendous advantage.
While I was at it, I looked up three of Harry Greb's sisters to find out how they and their husbands fared economically. It appeared that they weren't rich, but apparently still did better than average.
- Chuck Johnston
Re: Live Fast, Die Young: The Life and Times of Harry Greb
Thanks Klompton.klompton wrote:He was just really competetive and wanted to be the best. I mean he really, really wanted to prove himself. I think early on it had to do with so many people telling him he would never make it. Hes one of those guys that blocked out the 80% who were saying he wasnt any good and only paid attention to the positive press. Later on in life when someone wrote something like he lost to Tunney or something like that it really just ate away at him. He couldnt stand it. He would want to get that guy back into the ring a week later and prove to everyone that he could beat him. You could latch onto the human side of the story and say later on that he was a widower and had to support his daughter. He said this numerous times. No doubt theres some truth to it. But we all know that a lot of these fighter, even when they are old men, cant shake that bug. They need to know that they are the biggest dog on the block. Look at Bob Foster. Even today as a crotchety old man if you ask him "How would a fight between you and Roy Jones go?" Hed answer in a very simple: "Id knock him out." "What about a fight with Michael Spinks?" "Id knock him out." Or Joe Frazier when practically blind and middle aged stated that he could get into shape and beat a prime Mike Tyson. Thats the type of guy Greb was. He just couldnt stand the thought of anyone being better than him. Its one of the things I love about him. He was the type of fighter that fans live for. He wasnt in it JUST to make a buck, that was kind of the icing on the cake. He was in it to prove himself and thats why his record looks almost ridiculous for its depth and activity.
It sounds like this need to be the best stopped him from avoiding black fighters of the time.
I will be getting the book for sure. Interested in how things panned out with his daughter.