Larry Holmes vs. Muhammad Ali 'Stop the Fight'

[BoxBuzz]

Well it's no surprise that you feel inspired to get into the details of this fight. It brings you great happiness. Totaly OK...the love of sport should do just that! But it wasn't Larry Holmes that defeated Muhammad Ali.....it was Father Time. Any other spin is absolutely disingenuous.

But it WAS Joe Frazier that defeated Ali.....a far better and fairer loss. Norton 1 as well.

Anyway....let's move on to your next "inside story".....Don't leave without getting into the nitty gritty of the Trevor Travesty. He beat that old man like he was...well.....OLD! ....so tell us what we don't know about that shocking loss that shows us just how over hyped Ali was..

However, the other side of that story COULD be how the hell was the old washed up dinosaur still standing at the end? Not as dramatic as getting up from that Frazier hook, or absorbing Foreman's best, or hangin in to the end of a fight with a broken jaw, but you can say one thing about Ali....he sure could take a whuppin' with style! Something that every true legend of the ring needs in his skill set. And he had it....come to think of it, he had it like no one else in history.

Oops...sorry if I'm takin' some steam out of your story.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali's true colors came out in this fight when he said "I'm gonna fornicate you up!" to Holmes when the referee was trying to give his instructions. The whole fascade that Ali was a hero and defendor of civil rights, etc. was a crock. Never forget this was the same Ali who preached segregation from white people in his early conversion to Islam. Never forget also this is the same Ali who said he wouldnt go to Vietnam because of his non-violent beliefs, yet he brutalised poor Terrell and Patterson just for calling him "Clay". Never forget either this is the same Ali who preached how white people were evil and were the sole problem in black poverty and crime, yet it is well documented he slept with white women. And, never forget that this man used racism and politics at every advantage: He made Frazier sound like the "great white black hope", that he was a gorilla and an Uncle Tom, etc. He made poor Chuck Wepner sound like a member of the KKK when they were on tv claiming that Wepner called him a "N-Word" when that wasnt true, just to drive interest into the bout. Throughout his whole career, it was always a ploy to push this image that he was something he wasnt.

I dont care what anyone says in his defense. Ali was a coward for not going into Vietnam. Ali was a racist son of a bitch and an egotistical bastard who once said sparring partners were the lowest form of life there was. The man wanted to say he was like Jack Johnson, and in many ways they both were similar, but make no mistake at least Johnson owned up to all his bullshit unlike Ali. He didnt hide his affairs with white women, or his thoughts and feelings and snobbery. There's a saying that you put makeup and a dress on a pig, it's still a pig. Ali was not a hero in my eyes. He was a great fighter, maybe even the greatest as he always said, but make no mistake the man was an asshole.

[Giancarlo]

HomoHenry, boxing failure, appears to be drunk again.

[HomicideHenry]

HomoHenry, boxing failure, appears to be drunk again.

#1- Are you homophobic? Shall I report you to the Civil Rights committee?

#2- Define "failure" cus I havent seen your ass in a ring at all.

#3- I dont do drugs or drink alcohol.

[Giancarlo]

#1- Are you homophobic?

No, what you do with other 'men' in public toilets is your business

#2- Define "failure" cus I havent seen your ass in a ring at all.

You haven't seen me talking about what a hard man I am either. That was you. Then you got smashed to a pulp.

#3- I dont do drugs or drink alcohol.

No excuse for the shite you come out with then, Rufus.

[klompton]

All professional fights are about money. Anyone who says otherwise is either naive or stupid. Professional fighters, even the crazy ass mean ones who love to fight, dont fight professionally for anything but money. It hasnt been called a whores game for nothing:


I basically agree with Homicide Henry. I dont think Ali was a good person, a hero, etc. I think he was flawed individual (arent we all). But I think he was a great fighter and probably the greatest heavyweight. Its why Duce's assinine posts irritate me so much. I can seperate my dislike for Ali as a person from my appreciation for him as a fighter. I dont put the blinders on.

A couple of corrections to what HH had to say about Ali though:

I dont recall Ali ever preaching non violance. In fact the black muslims were known to be violent and militant. When my father was stationed at GLNT in Chicago the sailors were instructed not to walk on the same side of the street as the black muslim mosque because the Fruit of Islam had been known to attack passersby.

Ali didnt just say Wepner called him the N word, he said that about Quarry too. I dont know that Quarry ever got over that and the stigma stuck to him for a long time too.

Ali was a hypocrite, he was a racist, he was a homophobe, he was a sexist (possibly to the point of being a woman beater), he was an elitist, Ali was a lot of bad things that some people dont want you to know about, but he was also a great fighter... And he kicks the living shit out of Thad Spencer and anyone else Il Douche tries to pretend Ali ducked.

[BoxBuzz]

OK honestly...no hostility from me, you very much infotain me! ....but Il Duce, no one will ever believe that you are at all "neutral" in your contributions when the subject is Ali.

HH...is honest, he openly espouses anger/hatred for the guy because he has "judged" the man. Much as I have 'judged" Monzon to be scum. Though Monzon remains in my estimation the greates MW.

If you are attempting to sell anyone of us that you do not present information in a way to persuade a reader to think less of Ali....that would be silly.

So don't be silly. I, unlike some others, see no reason for you to change. Though I do feel that the word insidious applies to many of your contributions...

[SamWise72]

Well, I enjoy your contributions on pretty much everything else, but I've stopped reading anything you post on Ali, almost. This is because it appears you're on a mission to suggest that a) Ali lost every fight, and b) Ali ducked all sorts of fighters up to and including your postman, who would have beaten him, despite that none of these fighters amounted to anything. I've never seen quite such a sustained and imaginative attack on anyone's career. I'm half expecting a thread suggesting that Ali should have come out of retirement to fight Tyson, or that he stayed amateur for the Olympics as a means of ducking Ingemar Johannson, or that McAllinden would have stopped him with ease, and that's why they never met.

[BoxBuzz]

Hate may be too strong a word Il Duce...but you would be the one to know.

I think "insidious" is the best way to describe your thoughts on Ali. IF I were young, and just becoming acquainted with the sports history I believe I would be destined to have a denegrated "through the looking glass" or "alice in wonderland" view of Ali, if all I had were your contributions in which to frame my opinions. Granted some see him as "Superman"...and that's another type of polar opposite surrealism perhaps.

However the IDEA that he is the greatest or one of the greatest HW's in history...is not absurd..in my humble opinion. So those who hold that opinion do not in any way scandalize my intellect as it appears to scandalize yours.

I probably appear to go after Carnera in this way. I have come to believe in the "hoaxish" aspects of his career. The evidence is rather substantial though it does interlace more heavily in his earlier experiences. Others write compelling exposes on how he "made it through the rain" and believe he became much better, even respectable in what some may call his "post corruption" career, I have held fast to the belief that he remains "all wet" regardless of the softer more blurring lens of the passing years.

Ali's career holds up very well as the years go by IMHO. In fact (and I mean this sincerely) your attempts to follow the strings of "what might have been" and fights that "could have happened" have probably brought most historians to believe more firmly that his reign was a strong one. Because many of your "what ifs" honestly fall far short for making a case for a "compromised" reign. (Despite his backers wish to sinfully "make money" on him. He was after all a professional)

[BoxBuzz]

Hmm Il Duce....I was referring to what I thought was your belief that his backers were milking the money vs setting him up against the best. Maybe we are talking past each other on that one.

[HomicideHenry]

OK honestly...no hostility from me, you very much infotain me! ....but Il Duce, no one will ever believe that you are at all "neutral" in your contributions when the subject is Ali.

HH...is honest, he openly espouses anger/hatred for the guy because he has "judged" the man. Much as I have 'judged" Monzon to be scum. Though Monzon remains in my estimation the greates MW.
If you are attempting to sell anyone of us that you do not present information in a way to persuade a reader to think less of Ali....that would be silly.

So don't be silly. I, unlike some others, see no reason for you to change. Though I do feel that the word insidious applies to many of your contributions...

Mind you, I also did say Ali may very well of been the greatest heavyweight of all time. My thoughts on him as a fighter, are different than my thoughts on him as a person.

All professional fights are about money. Anyone who says otherwise is either naive or stupid. Professional fighters, even the crazy ass mean ones who love to fight, dont fight professionally for anything but money. It hasnt been called a whores game for nothing:


I basically agree with Homicide Henry. I dont think Ali was a good person, a hero, etc. I think he was flawed individual (arent we all). But I think he was a great fighter and probably the greatest heavyweight. Its why Duce's assinine posts irritate me so much. I can seperate my dislike for Ali as a person from my appreciation for him as a fighter. I dont put the blinders on.

A couple of corrections to what HH had to say about Ali though:

I dont recall Ali ever preaching non violance. In fact the black muslims were known to be violent and militant. When my father was stationed at GLNT in Chicago the sailors were instructed not to walk on the same side of the street as the black muslim mosque because the Fruit of Islam had been known to attack passersby.

Ali didnt just say Wepner called him the N word, he said that about Quarry too. I dont know that Quarry ever got over that and the stigma stuck to him for a long time too.

Ali was a hypocrite, he was a racist, he was a homophobe, he was a sexist (possibly to the point of being a woman beater), he was an elitist, Ali was a lot of bad things that some people dont want you to know about, but he was also a great fighter... And he kicks the living poo out of Thad Spencer and anyone else Il Douche tries to pretend Ali ducked.

After leaving the side of Malcolm X, then he began on this crusade that Islam was a religion of peace. Following 9/11 he was one of the many black muslims to come out and defend Islam as a religion of peace, citing that the bastards who bombed the buildings were not true muslims.

I am aware that the same tactics were done to Quarry. In truth, almost every white heavyweight he fought (and some blacks) he used the tools of racism against. Everyone was either a nazi or a member of the KKK or a white hope or "great white black hope", etc. I'll never forget a poem he did about Floyd Patterson where he said "he (Patterson) did what he could, he tried to force himself into an all white neighborhood."

The woman beater stories for the most part are true (if you believe his ex-wives). When he became a member of the Nation of Islam he married a young woman who he forced to no longer wear makeup, wear long dresses and turbans, etc. and when she defied him he went nuts at a party and divorced her on the grounds of religous differences---- but the truth was he was being a control freak.

As for the allegations that he ducked people; I think of all the allegations, that one is the biggest stretch of them all. The only time he ever ducked his mandatories, etc. was near the end of his career. He refused to fight Norton a fourth time, he refused to give his #1 mandatory Gerrie Coetzee a title shot, he opted to fight Leon Spinks and even tried like crazy to get a sanctioning body to recognise an old amateur rival of his (who had knocked Ali out) to fight for the title in his pro debut, etc. If people were dodged, it was because they werent worth the time or the money---- there was much talk of him facing Jack Boddell for a time, too, but Boddell just didnt match up and that was proven when he was kayoed in one round by Quarry.

[HomicideHenry]

#1- Are you homophobic?

No, what you do with other 'men' in public toilets is your business

#2- Define "failure" cus I havent seen your ass in a ring at all.

You haven't seen me talking about what a hard man I am either. That was you. Then you got smashed to a pulp.

#3- I dont do drugs or drink alcohol.

No excuse for the shite you come out with then, Rufus.

#1- There you go stereotyping gay people again. While I am not gay, I will say this, you are one hell of a prick when it comes to racism and bigotry yourself.

#2- I'd like to see evidence of where I said I was a hard man. If I recall before my pro debut, I said if given the chance to fight the likes of the Arkansas bum-stable that Stacy Goodson had, that I would easily beat Andrew Hartley, Brian Strege, David Dumas, etc. but never said I was better than that. In truth, almost anybody could beat those kind of guys anyways, so I dont see your point. And yeah, I got beaten to a pulp by a silver medal winner who later became (and later was stripped) a minor world title champion. I had no business in the ring with that man, being essentially a street fighter with no amateur fights--- but then again, I was conned into it as well. However, I am not ashamed. It's far more experience, those 47 seconds, than alot of armchair pundits have ever had in their life.

#3- We all have our opinions, and opinions are like assholes, they all stink. This isnt a forum where we are all supposed to agree. But it is better sometimes to agree to disagree and leave it at that. Think of that next time before you want to make personal vendettas with people you will never meet in real life. Jesus bless.

[yancey]

OK honestly...no hostility from me, you very much infotain me! ....but Il Duce, no one will ever believe that you are at all "neutral" in your contributions when the subject is Ali.

HH...is honest, he openly espouses anger/hatred for the guy because he has "judged" the man. Much as I have 'judged" Monzon to be scum. Though Monzon remains in my estimation the greates MW.
If you are attempting to sell anyone of us that you do not present information in a way to persuade a reader to think less of Ali....that would be silly.

So don't be silly. I, unlike some others, see no reason for you to change. Though I do feel that the word insidious applies to many of your contributions...

Mind you, I also did say Ali may very well of been the greatest heavyweight of all time. My thoughts on him as a fighter, are different than my thoughts on him as a person.

All professional fights are about money. Anyone who says otherwise is either naive or stupid. Professional fighters, even the crazy ass mean ones who love to fight, dont fight professionally for anything but money. It hasnt been called a whores game for nothing:


I basically agree with Homicide Henry. I dont think Ali was a good person, a hero, etc. I think he was flawed individual (arent we all). But I think he was a great fighter and probably the greatest heavyweight. Its why Duce's assinine posts irritate me so much. I can seperate my dislike for Ali as a person from my appreciation for him as a fighter. I dont put the blinders on.

A couple of corrections to what HH had to say about Ali though:

I dont recall Ali ever preaching non violance. In fact the black muslims were known to be violent and militant. When my father was stationed at GLNT in Chicago the sailors were instructed not to walk on the same side of the street as the black muslim mosque because the Fruit of Islam had been known to attack passersby.

Ali didnt just say Wepner called him the N word, he said that about Quarry too. I dont know that Quarry ever got over that and the stigma stuck to him for a long time too.

Ali was a hypocrite, he was a racist, he was a homophobe, he was a sexist (possibly to the point of being a woman beater), he was an elitist, Ali was a lot of bad things that some people dont want you to know about, but he was also a great fighter... And he kicks the living poo out of Thad Spencer and anyone else Il Douche tries to pretend Ali ducked.

After leaving the side of Malcolm X, then he began on this crusade that Islam was a religion of peace. Following 9/11 he was one of the many black muslims to come out and defend Islam as a religion of peace, citing that the bastards who bombed the buildings were not true muslims.

I am aware that the same tactics were done to Quarry. In truth, almost every white heavyweight he fought (and some blacks) he used the tools of racism against. Everyone was either a nazi or a member of the KKK or a white hope or "great white black hope", etc. I'll never forget a poem he did about Floyd Patterson where he said "he (Patterson) did what he could, he tried to force himself into an all white neighborhood."

The woman beater stories for the most part are true (if you believe his ex-wives). When he became a member of the Nation of Islam he married a young woman who he forced to no longer wear makeup, wear long dresses and turbans, etc. and when she defied him he went nuts at a party and divorced her on the grounds of religous differences---- but the truth was he was being a control freak.

As for the allegations that he ducked people; I think of all the allegations, that one is the biggest stretch of them all. The only time he ever ducked his mandatories, etc. was near the end of his career. He refused to fight Norton a fourth time, he refused to give his #1 mandatory Gerrie Coetzee a title shot, he opted to fight Leon Spinks and even tried like crazy to get a sanctioning body to recognise an old amateur rival of his (who had knocked Ali out) to fight for the title in his pro debut, etc. If people were dodged, it was because they werent worth the time or the money---- there was much talk of him facing Jack Boddell for a time, too, but Boddell just didnt match up and that was proven when he was kayoed in one round by Quarry.

What about a rematch with Foreman?

Reckon Ali wanted any of that?

[evrenb]

Foreman should have got a rematch...same result pre manila imo...norton should have got a fourth fight and probably would have one in 77...

[yancey]

Buzz, were you impressed with Ali's behavior during the referee's instructions?

[BoxBuzz]

Buzz, were you impressed with Ali's behavior during the referee's instructions?

In the Holmes fight? Hey, even if had nothing left...he had to go with "what got him there" even on the chance that it might impress Holmes. It did not impress Frazier.....but I do think he was able to get to a few opponents along the way. Hey whatever gives you an edge lol. "Protect yourself at all times, includes protecting your psyche". If you can baffle someone with bullshit...more power to you.

Hearns was impervious to the mental psyche....as was Frazier, Holmes, Monzon. Can you name others?

Some were easy victims....like a few of Tysons early opponents. Mike Spinks maybe? Though Spinks was a stand up guy, he may have caved psychologically to Tyson.

[p4p1]

Buzz, were you impressed with Ali's behavior during the referee's instructions?

In the Holmes fight? Hey, even if had nothing left...he had to go with "what got him there" even on the chance that it might impress Holmes. It did not impress Frazier.....but I do think he was able to get to a few opponents along the way. Hey whatever gives you an edge lol. "Protect yourself at all times, includes protecting your psyche". If you can baffle someone with bullshit...more power to you.

Hearns was impervious to the mental psyche....as was Frazier, Holmes, Monzon. Can you name others?

Some were easy victims....like a few of Tysons early opponents. Mike Spinks maybe? Though Spinks was a stand up guy, he may have caved psychologically to Tyson.

As has been stated before if it had of worked they would of called him a genius.

[BoxBuzz]

Well...that's what time does. Someday...you yourself will walk up to the keyboard....and those fingers...once nimble, and that mind once sharp...will stumble.....and you'll write something like...


a;lsdayuriujelak laoeuivnaoiuv;aoweiurv;alwnaourvn

and of course...their will be a bit of drool to short out the keyboard and a once brilliant contributor who many thought would be around forever...will sputter and fade out.....like a bad FM station. This goes for me as well.....Time makes no exceptions.


Except I will be wearing a sharp looking tie or ascot to catch my drool....so no sparks on the keyboard for me. lol.

[Giancarlo]

HomoHenry, are you the only "pro boxer" who has never actually landed a punch on an opponent?

You notice I put the term "pro boxer" in inverted commas, my dull friend?

That's because buying a licence thru the mail without any experience even of sparring, begging 6th rate 'trainers' to get you a fight, annoying them so much with your blow-hard "get me anybody" bluster over the 'net that they put you forward against a guy who was a real pro boxer, does not make you a pro boxer. It makes you a jackass.

And call me a racist again and I'll be putting my boot right up your big fat stupid manic-depressive hillbilly arse.

Jesus Bless indeed!

[Giancarlo]

Well...that's what time does. Someday...you yourself will walk up to the keyboard....and those fingers...once nimble, and that mind once sharp...will stumble.....and you'll write something like...


a;lsdayuriujelak laoeuivnaoiuv;aoweiurv;alwnaourvn

and of course...their will be a bit of drool to short out the keyboard and a once brilliant contributor who many thought would be around forever...will sputter and fade out.....like a bad FM station.

That is how I now picture the demise of Decagon.

[yancey]

HomoHenry, are you the only "pro boxer" who has never actually landed a punch on an opponent?

You notice I put the term "pro boxer" in inverted commas, my dull friend?

That's because buying a licence thru the mail without any experience even of sparring, begging 6th rate 'trainers' to get you a fight, annoying them so much with your blow-hard "get me anybody" bluster over the 'net that they put you forward against a guy who was a real pro boxer, does not make you a pro boxer. It makes you a jackass.

And call me a racist again and I'll be putting my boot right up your big fat stupid manic-depressive hillbilly arse.

Jesus Bless indeed!

^

Tough internet talk from a guy that most likely stands about 5'2" and has a thimble size appendage.

Not that I give a rat's ass, mind you.

[Giancarlo]

Tough internet talk that got me all wet from a guy that I have stalked since the day he came into my life electronically.

Daddy! Daddy, I'm ready for my close up now.

Righto, Nance!

[yancey]

Getting back to Topic,

Would anyone else have pulled the plug on Muhammad Ali well before the end of Round 10.

The consensus suggests no longer than the end of Round 7.

Yes, it definitely should have been stopped earlier.

That was a pathetic scene.

btw, I noticed that Dundee cornered for Ali in the Berbick fight but was not part of the entourage in the walk up to the ring from the dressing room. Maybe there was quite a bit of bad blood between Dundee and some of the Ali hangers-on.

For such a great fighter, Ali sure went out in very bad, disturbing fashion.

[evrenb]

Getting back to Topic,

Would anyone else have pulled the plug on Muhammad Ali well before the end of Round 10.

The consensus suggests no longer than the end of Round 7.

Yes, it definitely should have been stopped earlier.

That was a pathetic scene.

btw, I noticed that Dundee cornered for Ali in the Berbick fight but was not part of the entourage in the walk up to the ring from the dressing room. Maybe there was quite a bit of bad blood between Dundee and some of the Ali hangers-on.

For such a great fighter, Ali sure went out in very bad, disturbing fashion.

A sad regular occurence for many great fighters...

[funso banjo baby]

Ali's true colors came out in this fight when he said "I'm gonna eff you up!" to Holmes when the referee was trying to give his instructions. The whole fascade that Ali was a hero and defendor of civil rights, etc. was a crock. Never forget this was the same Ali who preached segregation from white people in his early conversion to Islam. Never forget also this is the same Ali who said he wouldnt go to Vietnam because of his non-violent beliefs, yet he brutalised poor Terrell and Patterson just for calling him "Clay". Never forget either this is the same Ali who preached how white people were evil and were the sole problem in black poverty and crime, yet it is well documented he slept with white women. And, never forget that this man used racism and politics at every advantage: He made Frazier sound like the "great white black hope", that he was a gorilla and an Uncle Tom, etc. He made poor Chuck Wepner sound like a member of the KKK when they were on tv claiming that Wepner called him a "N-Word" when that wasnt true, just to drive interest into the bout. Throughout his whole career, it was always a ploy to push this image that he was something he wasnt.

I dont care what anyone says in his defense. Ali was a coward for not going into Vietnam. Ali was a racist son of a bitch and an egotistical bastard who once said sparring partners were the lowest form of life there was. The man wanted to say he was like Jack Johnson, and in many ways they both were similar, but make no mistake at least Johnson owned up to all his bullshit unlike Ali. He didnt hide his affairs with white women, or his thoughts and feelings and snobbery. There's a saying that you put makeup and a dress on a pig, it's still a pig. Ali was not a hero in my eyes. He was a great fighter, maybe even the greatest as he always said, but make no mistake the man was an asshole.