Larry Holmes vs. Muhammad Ali 'Stop the Fight'

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Foreman should have got a rematch...same result pre manila imo...norton should have got a fourth fight and probably would have one in 77...

If Foreman was interested in a rematch, he wouldn't have taken 1975 off.

Ali was still there & fighting regularly, Foreman was not.

Foreman did come back in 1976, but nearly got sparked by Lyle then went on to lose to Jimmy Young in '77, then disappeared for a decade.

When was a rematch with Ali supposed to take place?

[evrenb]

1976 i would say...

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One person who must accept the blame for the beating.

Angelo Dundee.

Looking clueless, round-after-round while wiping down his fighter, with absolutely
no voice of encouragement or counter-plan.

The fight was 'over' after Round 5, and to sit there and continue to send your
fighter out there to be humiliated and brutally beaten, just for the sake of
thinking your looking good in the corner and knowing that the Camera is
on you in between Rounds.

After the bout, Angelo had no problem accepting a check for $400,000 for his
fine performance as the 'Chief Second'.

Agree with all this.

It was a sickening fight & his corner should have pulled him long before the 10th.

Ferdie Pacheco is the only member of the Ali camp that can be given any credit, being that he left in '77 when he could see Ali was fading fast & should no longer be fighting.

The rest of the hangers-on didn't want to give up their pay cheques.

[evrenb]

One person who must accept the blame for the beating.

Angelo Dundee.

Looking clueless, round-after-round while wiping down his fighter, with absolutely
no voice of encouragement or counter-plan.

The fight was 'over' after Round 5, and to sit there and continue to send your
fighter out there to be humiliated and brutally beaten, just for the sake of
thinking your looking good in the corner and knowing that the Camera is
on you in between Rounds.

After the bout, Angelo had no problem accepting a check for $400,000 for his
fine performance as the 'Chief Second'.

Agree with all this.

It was a sickening fight & his corner should have pulled him long before the 10th.

Ferdie Pacheco is the only member of the Ali camp that can be given any credit, being that he left in '77 when he could see Ali was fading fast & should no longer be fighting.

The rest of the hangers-on didn't want to give up their pay cheques.

I agree with most of this...

Prior to this fight of course Ali always had found a way to win...a lot of people thought Ali would find a way to win...watching back it is plainly obvious that he got a beating....Ali held a 'spell' over a lot of fans...

evrenb

[BoxBuzz]

I believe that Ali was over 21, and in charge of his own affairs. So the blame...if that's what you want to call it, was his. He did after all choose a rather rough profession. And attempted to hold on to glory for too long. At their mutual peaks it would have been a good fight. For the money Ali made that night..I would have stood there as long as I could no matter what the incoming...until I was unconscious. lol. Just for ONE paycheck that size.

Larry was simply breaking eggs and making omelets. And Ali was trying to find his way to the kitchen that night. It's what pro fighters do for a living. Taking a beating is part of what this particular "Hell's kitchen" is about.\

All in a days work.

[evrenb]

I believe that Ali was over 21, and in charge of his own affairs. So the blame...if that's what you want to call it, was his. He did after all choose a rather rough profession. And attempted to hold on to glory for too long. At their mutual peaks it would have been a good fight. For the money Ali made that night..I would have stood there as long as I could no matter what the incoming...until I was unconscious. lol. Just for ONE paycheck that size.

Larry was simply breaking eggs and making omelets. And Ali was trying to find his way to the kitchen that night. It's what pro fighters do for a living. Taking a beating is part of what this particular "Hell's kitchen" is about.\

All in a days work.

Very colourfully put...and very true.
Holmes had his own eggs scrambled by Mike Tyson 8 years later...lol

[evrenb]

Mr. Box Buzz,

Are you a specialist in linguistics, as it appears to me that you like to use many forms of idiomatic expressions
when responding to threads.

Just an observation.......

I agree his comments are most enlightening and observations erudite..

Excellent.

[gp.]

I basically agree with Homicide Henry.

If you ever find yourself doing this again, sit down and have a careful think.

[yancey]

Ringside Viewers,

Actually saw 'tears' coming from Muhammad Ali's eye's in Round 5, after getting hit in
the kidneys from a Larry Holmes right hand.

Referee - Richard Steele had the inclination of going over to the Muhammad Ali's Corner
after Round 5, but felt that he would be 'ripped apart' if he stopped it.

The sad part is, that Muhammad Ali knew he couldn't win the fight, and instead of accepting
defeat, it looked like he was only going on in an effort to try and embarrass Larry Holmes in
one of his comical ring shenanigans.

That woefully back-fired in Round 6, when the Caesar's crowd turned on Muhammad Ali
and boo'ed at his 'non-effort'.

The general feeling was, that they too had been 'scammed' into paying for this 'event'
with their hard earned money.

The late Richard Green was the referee, not Richard Steele.

[Giancarlo]

That's hilarious.

Like most of the stuff he posts, he's just making it up.

[ThatOne]

Where's the evidence that Muhammad Ali was a homophobe and a woman beater?

I'm sure there is evidence of him making homophobic comments. He would have to be a mighty enlightened septuagenarian to have never made a off hand homophobic comment in his lifetime. However I would think a homophobe would show a hatred of gay people over the entire course of a life.

I believe he slapped his first wife, Sonji, in a fit of rage. He wrote about it in his autobiography. He also wrote he was so upset he almost hit his idol, Sugar Ray Robinson, when he intervened. But does one act of intemperance make one a woman beater?

And I don't think the Black Muslims, aka the Nation of Islam attacked us on 9-11. Last I checked it was twenty radical Muslims, nineteen Saudis and their Egyptian ringleader. Ali is a Sufi Muslim, which is the most liberal branch of Islam. They are like the Muslim world's Episcopalians.

Did the young Ali do a lot of messed up things for which he now regrets? I'm sure but those that were closest to him said he didn't have a hateful bone in his body.

[yancey]

deleted.

[ThatOne]

Ali shouldn't have taken the fight but he was delusional and more importantly he needed the money. Holmes wasn't crazy about the idea but is quoted as saying what was he supposed to do when Don King waves five or was it eight million dollars in front of him.

Also, I don't think even his most ardent fans thought Ali could win. They hoped he wouldn't have embarrassed himself which he ended up doing.

Lose/lose for both fighters.

[Giancarlo]

Il Douche, take heed now that Nance has announced she is going to PM you.

Turn off your PMs now.

In a couple of hours your in-box will be filled with fawning posts from her.

Some may suggest strange things. Even stranger things than someone as strange as you might have encountered.

I too have suffered a barrage of outpourings of love and committment from Nance which I foolishly spurned.

You know the saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned".

Turn off your PMs before it is too late!

[yancey]

Il Douche, take heed now that Nance has announced she is going to PM you.

Turn off your PMs now.

In a couple of hours your in-box will be filled with fawning posts from her.

Some may suggest strange things. Even stranger things than someone as strange as you might have encountered.

I too have suffered a barrage of outpourings of love and committment from Nance which I foolishly spurned.

You know the saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned".

Turn off your PMs before it is too late!

I've never sent you a PM, which of course you know.

I remember you doing the same imaginary stuff to Goodnight Irene.

You are sick. Get help.

[Giancarlo]

Unless it is Joe Frazier in Manila.

Then I'm sure you will find plenty of reasons why it wasn't.

[yancey]

Unless it is Joe Frazier in Manila.

Then I'm sure you will find plenty of reasons why it wasn't.

There is a universe of difference between the endings in Manila and Las Vegas.

Even someone of your fry cook mentality should be able to figure that out.

[Giancarlo]

And here come the excuses.

[evrenb]

Well done giancarlo...well noted...take the blinkers off of these guys...i have as much respect for frazier as i do of ali in retiring on their stool...both would have continued make no mistake about that...respect guys eh?

[Giancarlo]

Well done giancarlo...well noted...take the blinkers off of these guys...i have as much respect for frazier as i do of ali in retiring on their stool...both would have continued make no mistake about that...respect guys eh?

That's the problem with these guys evrenb, their mantra is simply "Ali bad, Joe good".

Even when both fighters have taken the same action, in their hate-filled minds, Ali is a dirty swine for doing it and Joe is a hero.

You can't reason with them. They are not intelligent enough.

They do enjoy a good beating every week though and I am usually happy to oblige.

[yancey]

Well done giancarlo...well noted...take the blinkers off of these guys...i have as much respect for frazier as i do of ali in retiring on their stool...both would have continued make no mistake about that...respect guys eh?

That's the problem with these guys evrenb, their mantra is simply "Ali bad, Joe good".

Even when both fighters have taken the same action, in their hate-filled minds, Ali is a dirty swine for doing it and Joe is a hero.

You can't reason with them. They are not intelligent enough.

They do enjoy a good beating every week though and I am usually happy to oblige.

Looks like you found a blow buddy, Giancarlo.

And of similar IQ.

(hint, not too high )

One retirement on the stool was a glorious, monumental effort, with the opponent wanting to do the same. A true fight had occurred, even though the skill levels had clearly diminished from The Big One.

At Manila, the public got their money's worth.

The other retirement was an extremely humiliating mercy kill after a shameful defraud of the public had occurred.

[evrenb]

Im not anyones buddy, especially a 'blow buddy'...what a ghastly thought. .do you have to be so smutty? And making sweeping, unsubstantiated remarks is hardly endearing....is it?

[yancey]

Im not anyones buddy, especially a 'blow buddy'...what a ghastly thought. .do you have to be so smutty? And making sweeping, unsubstantiated remarks is hardly endearing....is it?

I wouldn't get within 1000 miles of Giancarlo either.

[ThatOne]

Muhammad Ali was presented with an $8,000,000 Gift, which may have been cut down
to $6,100,000 by Don King.

Muhammad Ali's Manager - Herbert Muhammad who typically would get 30%, dropped his
Manager/Advisor fee down to 15%.

Larry Holmes was promised $4,000,000 - but I also think his Fight Purse was cut down
somewhat.

In training for this bout, Larry Holmes was on Fight-Plan of throwing 75 Jabs per Round,
and he never deviated from that routine.

As Jody Ballard said, 'Muhammad Ali will end up quitting on his stool, as Larry ain't wasting
his time by throwing right-hand bombs to take him out early. Quitting on your stool is
the worst kind of beating.'

Can I have a citation for that quotation so I can satisfy my own curiosity as to your veracity?

As to the "quitting on your stool" remark many boxers have quit on their stools and most of them weren't thirty eight year old men, two years removed from retirement, exhibiting signs of Parkinson's Disease, and drained from diuretics.

[ThatOne]

IMHO, the last version of Ali that could have beat Holmes died in Manila. I do think the Ali who had wars with Norton and Shavers was cagey enough to go the distance with Holmes and lose.

I don't know if it's apocryphal or not but a young Mike Tyson , I think he was only sixteen at the time, told Ali he would avenge his old man loss to Larry Holmes, and avenge it in spectacular fashion he did.