Pantera wrote:
Sounds like what people said about Eastman before Miranda tore apart that titanium!
Fair point, but all chins go, if you stick around long enough.
For some fighters, it's earlier than others.
Marvin got out at the right time.
I would've wanted to see a rematch with Ray with Leonard making similar concessions to Hagler. Hagler did everything he could to make the fight happen, and Ray ran like a girl from a rematch. Piss poor from Sugar.
Sugar wouldn't have agreed to such concessions.
Hagler only agreed to them because he wanted the money. It was by far his biggest payday, as nearly every fighter who fought Ray got.
I don't think Ray ran from Marvin, I think he was the type of guy who didn't forget easily.
Marvin was very childish during their fight by calling him names, disrespecting his parentage & sexuality.
Ray probably thought, sod it, why should I line his pockets again.
put yourself in Ray's shoes though. How would you feel after such a monumental struggle, such a titanic fight, all the training, all the hard work, very few people thinking he could beat Hagler, and coming through to win the fight (and he DID), people say meh thats not good enough Ray we arent convinced do it all over again and we'll believe you can beat him.
Nah i think Ray is TOTALLY justified laughing all the way home!!
mattym wrote:put yourself in Ray's shoes though. How would you feel after such a monumental struggle, such a titanic fight, all the training, all the hard work, very few people thinking he could beat Hagler, and coming through to win the fight (and he DID), people say meh thats not good enough Ray we arent convinced do it all over again and we'll believe you can beat him.
Nah i think Ray is TOTALLY justified laughing all the way home!!
Hitting elbows and gloves, shoeshining, and fighting the last 30 seconds of the last 8 rounds is enough to win?
mattym wrote:put yourself in Ray's shoes though. How would you feel after such a monumental struggle, such a titanic fight, all the training, all the hard work, very few people thinking he could beat Hagler, and coming through to win the fight (and he DID), people say meh thats not good enough Ray we arent convinced do it all over again and we'll believe you can beat him.
Nah i think Ray is TOTALLY justified laughing all the way home!!
matty
come on, everyone wanted to see a rematch, everyone except maybe for Tommy Hearns. Ray held all the cards and wouldn't play.
People were split on the outcome of the fight. It happens a lot. It wasn't the first time he wouldn't grant a rematch. All of this would be okayish if ray had remained re-retired, only he came back as soon as the 12 months were over.
mattym wrote:put yourself in Ray's shoes though. How would you feel after such a monumental struggle, such a titanic fight, all the training, all the hard work, very few people thinking he could beat Hagler, and coming through to win the fight (and he DID), people say meh thats not good enough Ray we arent convinced do it all over again and we'll believe you can beat him.
Nah i think Ray is TOTALLY justified laughing all the way home!!
Hitting elbows and gloves, shoeshining, and fighting the last 30 seconds of the last 8 rounds is enough to win?
what is shoeshining?? showboating?? Anyway i honestly didnt notice that he was just coming on in the last part of each round and expecting to win, it wasnt a significant factor for me. I have scored the fight 3 times, and Leonard is still winning it every time.
mattym wrote:put yourself in Ray's shoes though. How would you feel after such a monumental struggle, such a titanic fight, all the training, all the hard work, very few people thinking he could beat Hagler, and coming through to win the fight (and he DID), people say meh thats not good enough Ray we arent convinced do it all over again and we'll believe you can beat him.
Nah i think Ray is TOTALLY justified laughing all the way home!!
Hitting elbows and gloves, shoeshining, and fighting the last 30 seconds of the last 8 rounds is enough to win?
what is shoeshining?? showboating?? Anyway i honestly didnt notice that he was just coming on in the last part of each round and expecting to win, it wasnt a significant factor for me. I have scored the fight 3 times, and Leonard is still winning it every time.
Shoeshining is when you throw useless punches to the body...its a common shadow boxing technique but useless in the ring....ineffective yet flashy punches that the judges, one in particular, scored as solid blows.
I can understand if you have Leonard winning, but my beef is the 118-110 score, I'd like to know what two rounds Hagler won.
Mattyp151 wrote:
Hitting elbows and gloves, shoeshining, and fighting the last 30 seconds of the last 8 rounds is enough to win?
what is shoeshining?? showboating?? Anyway i honestly didnt notice that he was just coming on in the last part of each round and expecting to win, it wasnt a significant factor for me. I have scored the fight 3 times, and Leonard is still winning it every time.
Shoeshining is when you throw useless punches to the body...its a common shadow boxing technique but useless in the ring....ineffective yet flashy punches that the judges, one in particular, scored as solid blows.
I can understand if you have Leonard winning, but my beef is the 118-110 score, I'd like to know what two rounds Hagler won.
I didn't really see the need for a rematch since I thought Hagler beat him.
Even though hagler was evidently shot fighter by then I had still scored it 116-113
mattym wrote:what is shoeshining?? showboating?? Anyway i honestly didnt notice that he was just coming on in the last part of each round and expecting to win, it wasnt a significant factor for me. I have scored the fight 3 times, and Leonard is still winning it every time.
Shoeshining is when you throw useless punches to the body...its a common shadow boxing technique but useless in the ring....ineffective yet flashy punches that the judges, one in particular, scored as solid blows.
I can understand if you have Leonard winning, but my beef is the 118-110 score, I'd like to know what two rounds Hagler won.
I didn't really see the need for a rematch since I thought Hagler beat him.
Even though hagler was evidently shot fighter by then I had still scored it 116-113
How did you score it?
The reason you gave is perfect reason for a rematch...I had Hagler winning 115-113, I gave the first 4 to Sugar, and then the 6th, after that, all Hagler.
Jaclem wrote:..graziano is much over rated as a puncher. he could hit but he made his reputation mostly over welterweights. not in hagler's class.
zale....he and graziano have their fury related mainly on their bouts with each other. neither was as damaging against the other middleweights they fought.
a bout between hagler and graziano wouldn't be a problem for the marvelous one.
..against zale....well, here I think hagler would do well to go into his boxing mode rather than going to war as he did with hearns. zale would be outboxed. in a war...hagler would take a couple of those zale shots to the body and realize the science of boxing would be the better route.
Jaclem, it's very interesting your opinion; thanks for the reply! Graziano k.d. Ray Robinson in their title fight, and in a war, Zale was a King of Wars; I allways remember the Zale-Graziano III, and I believe each one of that boys will win over Hagler, the Hagler who was k.d. by Juan Roldán, the same Hagler of the Antuofermo drew...
Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:I'm absolutely sure that Stanley Ketchell would knocked out Marvin Hagler (good boxer, good chin, but Juan Roldán knocked him down); remember as Stanley k.d. Jack Johnson (!!!) And I wants to known what chances would have Hagler before boys like Tony Zale or Rocky Graziano...
I liked Ketchel. Nat Fleischer founder of ring magazine ranked Ketchel over everyone including Greb and Robinson. I still can't tell much from the film.
Zale? There's not much film on him either.
Blueberrymuffin, I liked S Ketchel, too, and Fleischer put in his all time Middleweights ratings Tommy Ryan as number two. Ketchell, Ryan, Greb and Robinson were better than Hagler; thanks for your reply!
The only problem is, even though Ketchell was THE hardest hitting and one of the toughest men at MW, he was rather sloppy and crude and telegraphed punches. If he shortened up his punches a little bit and worked a bit more on defense---he could knock out Hagler.
The only problem is, even though Ketchell was THE hardest hitting and one of the toughest men at MW, he was rather sloppy and crude and telegraphed punches. If he shortened up his punches a little bit and worked a bit more on defense---he could knock out Hagler.
If the first punch that Hearns hit Hagler with didn't knock him down, he ain't getting KOed by anyone.
Roldan's KD over Hagler is highly disputed and widely held as a slip/push? If you watch the fight footage, he's down for less than two seconds and the moment his arms hit the canvas he's on his way back up.
As for Ketchel/Johnson - They both had an agreement beforehand that there would be no knockdowns or "blood" but Johnson either forgot or didn't care and broke the agreement (he had Ketchel down early and either broke his nose or gave him mouth damage later in the fight) but it's obvious he's not taking the fight entirely seriously and largely either tying up Ketchel or keeping him at bay with the left until the KD in the 12th. He was essentially toying with him.
As others have said, Ketchel was remarkably crude, if you look at that right hand he throws at Johnson, it's massively telegraphed to the point of comedy - Hagler showed that he had both the chin AND the smarts to avoid wild swinging punches like that.
