Marvis Frazier vs. Larry Holmes

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 08 Nov 2005, 17:15

What was the story behind Marvis Frazier fighting Larry Holmes? Frazier was only 10-0 (6kos) going into the fight and Holmes was the champ. Surely he must have known he was unlikely to win? How did the fight come about and why?

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 08 Nov 2005, 17:22

Decagon wrote:Daddy.

I know he's Joe's boy but why did they chuck him into the ring so early?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Nov 2005, 18:34

What puts the "ape" in apericot?

Daddy

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Nov 2005, 18:35

Whadda they got that I aint got?

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 09 Nov 2005, 06:57

It's true that Smokin' Joe mismatched his son, but contrary to popular opinion it is not true that Smokin' Joe mis-managed his son.

After Tyson, Marvis was the second best heavyweight of the late 80s.
As Joe himself said: "Outside of Tyson, show me another heavyweight out there who made more than two million dollars for their first 20 fights. Marvis made more money for his non-title fights than Tubbs, Witherspoon, Tucker made in their titlefights. I did a great job as manager for my son."
Excellent point.

-KOKid-

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 09 Nov 2005, 07:42

he may have made a pot of cash, but the pitiful sight of LH pummeling away at MF while trying to wave the ref in to stop the fight still stays with me.

I think this fight was the very definition of a mismatch and,whatever the financial gains, putting your own flesh and blood in a situation where they are going to be humiliated in front of millions around the world is, shall we say, an interesting parenting strategy

Slapsie

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 09 Nov 2005, 08:33

In fraziers book he says that too many fighters miss their chance to make serious money so he had Marvis do it first.

He used Tyson/Holyfield as an example how when they were supposed to fight in for like 90 million dollars but Tyson lost and then went to jail so they didn't fight for as much.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 09 Nov 2005, 09:27

it would also suggest a lack of confidence in his son's ability to sustain a long career at a top earning level

Sort of "get in, get paid, get out" policy

Nothing wrong with that at all, but I do wonder what the psychological damage could be

Slapsie

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 09 Nov 2005, 09:30

I can see why its easy to be critical of Joe but Marvis made money and he didn't get beaten up. Let me clarify. Marvis was blown away by Mike and Larry. He didn't take a sustained beating. In terms of health I'd much rather get blown away in one round than get beaten up over the course of 15.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 09 Nov 2005, 09:44

Marvis had some sort of nerve damage in his neck... You can clearly see surgical scars on the back of his neck.

He wasn't in it for the long haul...

Obviously Marvis enjoyed boxing, and wanted to make some money as a pro fighter.

And that's what he did.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Nov 2005, 14:08

-KOKid- wrote:It's true that Smokin' Joe mismatched his son, but contrary to popular opinion it is not true that Smokin' Joe mis-managed his son.

After Tyson, Marvis was the second best heavyweight of the late 80s.
As Joe himself said: "Outside of Tyson, show me another heavyweight out there who made more than two million dollars for their first 20 fights. Marvis made more money for his non-title fights than Tubbs, Witherspoon, Tucker made in their titlefights. I did a great job as manager for my son."
Excellent point.

-KOKid-

Just curious, why would you consider Marvis Frazier the second best heavyweight of the late 1980's?

-KOKid- · Post by **-KOKid-** » 09 Nov 2005, 14:22

Ambling Alp wrote:
-KOKid- wrote:It's true that Smokin' Joe mismatched his son, but contrary to popular opinion it is not true that Smokin' Joe mis-managed his son.

After Tyson, Marvis was the second best heavyweight of the late 80s.
As Joe himself said: "Outside of Tyson, show me another heavyweight out there who made more than two million dollars for their first 20 fights. Marvis made more money for his non-title fights than Tubbs, Witherspoon, Tucker made in their titlefights. I did a great job as manager for my son."
Excellent point.

-KOKid-
Just curious, why would you consider Marvis Frazier the second best heavyweight of the late 1980's?

Ha-ha! I meant to say second best PAID heavyweight of the late 80s.
Sorry about that.

-KOKid-

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 09 Nov 2005, 14:26

Tantum wrote:Marvis had some sort of nerve damage in his neck... You can clearly see surgical scars on the back of his neck.

He wasn't in it for the long haul...

Obviously Marvis enjoyed boxing, and wanted to make some money as a pro fighter.

And that's what he did.

Spot on.

I was just about to say the same thing.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 09 Nov 2005, 15:44

KOJOE90 wrote:
Tantum wrote:Marvis had some sort of nerve damage in his neck... You can clearly see surgical scars on the back of his neck.

He wasn't in it for the long haul...

Obviously Marvis enjoyed boxing, and wanted to make some money as a pro fighter.

And that's what he did.
Spot on. I was just about to say the same thing.

Didn't he suffer the nerve damage in his last amatuer fight against Broad? And as I recall, wasn't that the only fight he lost as an amatuer?

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 09 Nov 2005, 15:52

The Great John L wrote:Didn't he suffer the nerve damage in his last amatuer fight against Broad? And as I recall, wasn't that the only fight he lost as an amatuer?

He also lost to Tony Tubbs.

1977
--- Opponent --- Win Debut
--- Opponent --- Win
Mar 2 Opponent Philadelphia, PA Win 3d bout
Mar 10 John Owens Philadelphia, PA W 3
Mar 26 Jarrett Smith Palestra, Philadelphia, PA KO 1
(Won PA State GG, sub novice at heavy)

1978
Mar 6 Ed Bednarik Pittsburgh, PA W 3
(Won PA State GG, open div., voted Outstanding Boxer of Tourn.
Frazier's record 9-0 at this point)

Aug 5 Opponent Indianapolis, IN KO 2
(12th win, 6th kayo)

1979
Feb 9 Tim Witherspoon Blue Horizon, Philadelphia, PA W 3
(Witherspoon down in 1st round)
Mar 4 James Smith 69th St Forum, Philadelphia, PA W 3
(wins Phila. Golden Gloves)
Mar 16 Jimmy Clark Liberty Bell Park, Philadelphia, PA W 3
(wins Pa. Eastern Regional title)
Mar 22 Ed Bednarik Palestra, Philadelphia, PA TKO 2
(Won PA State GG title, heavy open)
Mar 28 Charles Archie Indianapolis, IN KO 1
Mar 29 Bryon Westmoreland Indianapolis, IN W 3
Mar 30 Walter Ware Indianapolis, IN win
Mar 31 William Hosea Indianapolis, IN W 3
Mar 31 Philip Brown Indianapolis, IN W 3
(Won National Golden Gloves title)
May 18 Tony Tubbs Atlantic City, NJ W 3
(31st consec. win)
Oct 3 Jerome Boyd Clarion State, PA Sched
--- Opponent Yokohama, Japan win
Dec 16 Olaf Mayer (AUT) Yokohama, Japan KO 2
(Won World Championship Juniors (under 19), Heavyweight)

1980
Feb 2 Tony Tubbs Houston, TX L 3
(First loss after 44 wins)

May 11 Chris McDonald Las Vegas, NV W 3
(Won United States AAU Championship)

Jun 16 Mitch Green Atlanta, GA W 3 (USA Olympic Trials, QF)
Jun 19 James Broad Atlanta, GA L KO 1 (USA Olympic Trials, semi; 2d loss in 58 fights, final record 56-2)

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 09 Nov 2005, 16:10

Hell of an amatuer career. Too bad he was blown out in his 2 biggest pro tests. I really think he was a pretty good fighter, just not against Holmes or Tyson.