Joe Louis vs.............

[evndrbsn]

lennx lewis was knocked out by oliver mccail and hasim rahman, NEVER getting off the floor to win a fight.

Well, TECHNICALLY, Lewis was floored against "Hug 'Ems" Henry Akinwande. His glove touched the canvas after a punch, and we all know the result of that historic contest!

[evndrbsn]

How come I never hear mention of Joe Louis against Eric Esch, better known as "Butterbean?" If Butterbean was around in Joe's day, he definitely would have been a member of the 'Bum of the Month' club.

Prediction: Esch KO 1 Louis (0:12)

[theone]

The Bomber has been degraded by some fans as having a "weak chin". This is simply not true. This argument can be made against virtually anyone. lennx lewis was knocked out by oliver mccail and hasim rahman, NEVER getting off the floor to win a fight.

Mccall and Rahman hit much harder than any one Louis fought. I dont care what the ring rated Schmeling, there is no way he punched harder than those two.

Max Baer, who hit hard enough to send two men to an early grave, hit Joe with some of his hardest punches. Louis took them easily.

Baer was so scared he barely put up any kind of fight. I recently watched the fight and didnt see Baer throw anything but looping easily avoidable amatuerish shots.

Lyle, Bonavena, Douglas and Holyfield punched alot harder than most of the fighters who put Louis down, like Galento, Schmeling and Braddock.
I can easily see someone like Lyle killing someone that wieghed only 180lbs or so.

liston was just like louis, a stalker. but liston lacked the handspeed and accuracy louis had with his combinations.

I wont argue this. i could envision Louis winning this one.

- louis would counter inside foremans haymakers with lethal fast deadly combinations

Foreman way too strong and pwerful to let Louis get inside. Foreman would blast away and i really believe this would be a hard fight at all for Foreman.

frazier would play right into louis and i dont see how he could survive a slug out with louis

Their both going to land but i think the stronger, better chinned Fraizer would prevail in a gruelling contest.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Mccall and Rahman hit much harder than any one Louis fought. I dont care what the ring rated Schmeling, there is no way he punched harder than those two.

max baer hit harder than both rahman and mccail!!!!

and though it doesnt count againt joe louis, rocky maarciano hit harder than both of them as well!!!

Foreman way too strong and pwerful to let Louis get inside. Foreman would blast away and i really believe this would be a hard fight at all for Foreman.

louis didnt need to get inside, he would simply counter foremans loops with the hardest fastest combinations foreman has ever seen.
LOOK WHAT RON LYLE DID TO FOREMAN whose a poor mans joe louis. boxer-punchers like liston and louis will knock out foreman.

louis will outbox foreman and find the opening and expose foreman.

joe louis i might add was very strong! 6'2 207lb only 1" and 10lbs less thaan foreman


foreman himself would saay louis would knock him out, and foreman is not being humble when he says it!!

Their both going to land but i think the stronger, better chinned Fraizer would prevail in a gruelling contest.

frazier coming into louis is suicide!! hes made for louis.

reaons frazier wont win:

louis was a fast starter - Frazier a slow starter.

louis had a wide variety of punches - Frazier relied too much on his left hook.

louis was an intelligent fighter - Frazier comes across as robotic.

louis is versatile - Frazier has only one style.

louis throws destructive combinations - Frazier does not

louis had faster handspeed

louis had better two fisted power including a left hook as good as joes

frazier a lot more predictable than louis



louis would bust up frazier with his jab and when fraizer put pressur on him, louis would have made frazier pay dearly for coming in. louis would totally bust up frazier, the fight wont lasst long.

frazier great fighter, but bad style for a joe louis

[Sherlock]

Mccall and Rahman hit much harder than any one Louis fought. I dont care what the ring rated Schmeling, there is no way he punched harder than those two.

Rahman, who couldn't knock out the china-chinned Maskaev, the weak chinned John Ruiz, or even an ancient Trevor Berbick, punch harder than Schmeling?

McCall, who couldn't stop a chinny Bruno, an old Larry Holmes, or Buster Douglas, punch harder than Schmeling?

Schmeling was a counterpuncher, but he packed a mighty wallop. Not of a Foreman, Shavers, or Baer status, but definetely of equal or, in most opinions, of a higher stature than McCall's or Rahman's best shots.

[Seamus]

Hey maybe John Mugabi hit harder than McCall and Rahman. Afterall he's got a better KO pct and most of you guys totally discount weight differences.

[evndrbsn]

Mccall and Rahman hit much harder than any one Louis fought. I dont care what the ring rated Schmeling, there is no way he punched harder than those two.

Rahman, who couldn't knock out the china-chinned Maskaev, the weak chinned John Ruiz, or even an ancient Trevor Berbick, punch harder than Schmeling?

McCall, who couldn't stop a chinny Bruno, an old Larry Holmes, or Buster Douglas, punch harder than Schmeling?

Schmeling was a counterpuncher, but he packed a mighty wallop. Not of a Foreman, Shavers, or Baer status, but definetely of equal or, in most opinions, of a higher stature than McCall's or Rahman's best shots.

You can't even count the Maskaev fight against Rahman's punching power, because he LOST the fight. You could say that against every fighter who ever lost a fight. Tyson didn't knock out Buster "Glass Jaw" Douglas, so now does he not have a good punch?

Where do you get that John Ruiz has a bad chin? He got KO'd once in 19 seconds against one of the biggest punchers in the heavyweight division in the last 10 years, and that was nine years ago in 1996. Ever since then, his chin has held up very well. Jack Dempsey had a great chin and he got KO'd in about twenty seconds by Fireman Jim Flynn. Pretty similar.

I think the Berbick fight was a great exhibition of Rahman's power. He floored the crafty former champion with what, the first punch of the fight? In sixty-two pro bouts, Berbick was only stopped twice. By Mike Tyson and Bernardo Mercado, a guy who retired with 29 KOs in 34 wins (and also stopped Earnie Shavers).

When Max Schmeling was 14-1-1, he was "unable" to knock out a guy who had already been KO'd 5 times previously (and would be KO'd 7 more times in his career). The guy was 25-20-10 before he upset Schmeling and only won three more bouts over the next seven years. The people Rahman was "unable" to KO had records of 46-8-1 (Berbick), 17-2-0 (Maskaev), and 38-5-1 (Ruiz). Berbick had been KO'd twice previously, one time to one of the biggest punchers ever in Mike Tyson. Maskaev had only been stopped by Oliver McCall and David Tua, two huge punchers also. What about Ruiz? Also suffered a KO defeat to David Tua. Like I said above, who else suffered a KO loss in about 20 seconds and is considered to have a great chin?

A great puncher doesn't knock every person out. Tyson couldn't KO James Tillis. Eleven other heavies did in Tillis' career. George Foreman couldn't KO a Levi Forte (who was 19-21-2) in 1969 and won a ten-round decision. Forte had been KO'd twelve times before he fought Foreman and four times in his last six bouts after George.

And McCall not a big puncher??? He dropped a prime Mike Tyson with 16 oz training gloves on in sparring. He is the only guy to KO Henry Akinwande and stopped all-time great Lennox Lewis in two rounds when Lewis was 29 years old!

[theone]

Rahman, who couldn't knock out the china-chinned Maskaev, the weak chinned John Ruiz, or even an ancient Trevor Berbick, punch harder than Schmeling?
McCall, who couldn't stop a chinny Bruno, an old Larry Holmes, or Buster Douglas, punch harder than Schmeling?

Absolutely. Schmeling only ko'd one ranked fighter over 195pds, and that was Louis. Most of his wins against guys over 190lbs were decisions. Those chinny guys you mentioned were nevere ko'd by a cruiserweight.

Schmeling was a counterpuncher, but he packed a mighty wallop. Not of a Foreman, Shavers, or Baer status, but definetely of equal or, in most opinions, of a higher stature than McCall's or Rahman's best shots.

Schmelings power was no where near any of the names you mentioned except maybe Baer.

[dempseyfire]

Louis faced Nova, both Baer brothers, and Galento.



The four were bigger punchers then Rahman and McCall. You saying that Galento wasn't a big puncher shows your ignorance.

Anyway, speaking of pure punch for punch power is stupid. Schmeling knocked out Louis b/c he was a master of timing, unloading a sharp quick right hand which caught Louis by surprise. Walcott was also a master of timing and accuracy with quick jolting counters. Those are the punches that knock you down. Vitali Klitschko probably hits harder then Max Schmeling (or Nate Tubbs) on a pure power scale, but he couldn't put Sanders on the floor once. I would guarantee you if Schmeling was to face Sanders, Corrie would lose the fight looking up at the stadium lights.
Rahman always unloads shots from a mile away. And while we are talking about their chins, Louis took at least a dozen flush rights from Max before finally caving in in the 12th. Lewis's knockout losses are completly different.

[Sherlock]

And McCall not a big puncher??? He dropped a prime Mike Tyson with 16 oz training gloves on in sparring. He is the only guy to KO Henry Akinwande and stopped all-time great Lennox Lewis in two rounds when Lewis was 29 years old!

I never said that nor implied that. I stated pure and simply Schmeling was an equal, if not more powerful puncher. I think McCall and Rahman possess great power, but less than that of Schmeling.

And Schmeling not kayo any ranked guys? He stopped Johnny Risko, hall of famer Young Stribling, Steve Hamas, and European champions Walter Neusel and Adolf Heuser in 1 round, and agruably the greatest heavyweight ever Joe Louis. That list is more impressive than McCalls or Rahman's ledger.

Maskaev has a weak chin, that's purely undebateable. I've always liked Maskaev, he is truly talented but his chin lets him down against punchers. And that Rahman couldn't beat him DOES count. Hell, T-Rex Sanders got him with one shot and was able to finish him.

And Ruiz does not get now because he holds on anytime a fighter gets close!

[theone]

max baer hit harder than both rahman and mccail!!!!

Based on what exactly?

rocky maarciano hit harder than both of them as well!!!

The Rock hit very hard for a guy his size. A straight right hand from both Rahman and Mccall would have shut Walcotts lights out as well.
ouis didnt need to get inside, he would simply counter foremans loops with the hardest fastest combinations foreman has ever seen.

LOOK WHAT RON LYLE DID TO FOREMAN whose a poor mans joe louis. boxer-punchers like liston and louis will knock out foreman.

With his reach and short punching would have to get inside to hurt Foreman. And so what if Lyle dropped and hurt Foreman? Lyle was a big strong powerful heavyweight with an outstanding chin. Foreman did win remember?

joe louis i might add was very strong! 6'2 207lb only 1" and 10lbs less thaan foreman

Louis at his peak fought at around 202 to 203. Foreman fought at around 220 for most of his peak years. 18 pounds of extra muscle is alot. Also add the fact that Foreman always did massive amount of power training with weights.

foreman himself would saay louis would knock him out, and foreman is not being humble when he says it!!

So what? Ali said Tyson would have knocked him out in his prime. I dont agree with either of them.

[Seamus]

Maskaev is truly talented ? He can punch I'll give him that, but he looked like a toughman contestant against Livin Castillo in his last outing. The only reason he didn't get in to serious trouble was because Castillo doesn't hit very hard.

[theone]

theone wrote:

And McCall not a big puncher??? He dropped a prime Mike Tyson with 16 oz training gloves on in sparring. He is the only guy to KO Henry Akinwande and stopped all-time great Lennox Lewis in two rounds when Lewis was 29 years old!

Actually i didnt write this, but I agree with it.

And Schmeling not kayo any ranked guys? He stopped Johnny Risko, hall of famer Young Stribling, Steve Hamas, and European champions Walter Neusel and Adolf Heuser in 1 round, and agruably the greatest heavyweight ever Joe Louis. That list is more impressive than McCalls or Rahman's ledger.

Like I said none of those guys were over 195 when they fought Schmeling. They were small heavies who would get owned by someone like Rahman.

Louis faced Nova, both Baer brothers, and Galento.
The four were bigger punchers then Rahman and McCall.

Based on what? Knocking out moslty cruiserweights and lightheavies?

You saying that Galento wasn't a big puncher shows your ignorance.

Who said he couldnt punch? Against all the crusiers who fough in the heavywieght division I'm sure he was a comparably hard puncher.

[evndrbsn]

And that Rahman couldn't beat him DOES count.

It counts against him as a FIGHTER but not against his POWER.

Let me use my example again. Max Schmeling at 35-3-3 got KO'd by Gipsy Daniels in one round. Daniels had 33 KOs in 140 fights. He scored KOs in a little over 20% of his fights and he was able to KO Max Schemling in one round. That takes nothing away from Schmeling's punching ability! It is a knock on him as a fighter and definitely against his chin, but not his power.

At least the people Rahman, Maskaev, Ruiz, and Berbick got KO'd by actually were punchers.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

The Rock hit very hard for a guy his size. A straight right hand from both Rahman and Mccall would have shut Walcotts lights out as well.

ouis didnt need to get inside, he would simply counter foremans loops with the hardest fastest combinations foreman has ever seen. [/quote]

no marciano hit hard for any heavyweight!! his punching power was measured and he hit over 1000 PSI with one punch.

u have to realize, marciano had god given natural power in his right hand, and even at 185lb, he is one of the hardest hitters in history of heavyweight division.

A straight right hand from both Rahman and Mccall would have shut Walcotts lights out as well.

i dont know about that








are u implying rahman, mccail hit harder than baer and marciano???



- ur too caught up on size, so what if hes 190lb or 250lb. punching power is god given, and marciano,dempsey, louis are rare exceptions were men 200lb or under can hit harder than 250lb men.


- schmeling was a greater puncher than mccail or rahman whether or not he hit as hard.




- foreman is not going to beat joe louis, louis had too much handspeed and accuraacy and would beat foreman to the punch every second of the way, and no way foreman can take joe louis combinations.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

theone, u saw what lyle did to george, imagine what a faster, hard hitter, much more deadly puncher and boxer would do to him like joe louis. and i hope ur not impyling lyle was a better puncher than joe louis

[Sherlock]

And that Rahman couldn't beat him DOES count.

It counts against him as a FIGHTER but not against his POWER.

Let me use my example again. Max Schmeling at 35-3-3 got KO'd by Gipsy Daniels in one round. Daniels had 33 KOs in 140 fights. He scored KOs in a little over 20% of his fights and he was able to KO Max Schemling in one round. That takes nothing away from Schmeling's punching ability! It is a knock on him as a fighter and definitely against his chin, but not his power.

At least the people Rahman, Maskaev, Ruiz, and Berbick got KO'd by actually were punchers.

If you actually knew anything of that fight, you would know Schmeling got caught by a flush shot and couldn't beat the count. Nothing more, nothing less. If anybody gets caught with a flush shot they didn't see coming, no matter how strong your chin is or the force behind it, your going out. Besides the Louis rematch, he was never kayoed again, only cut stoppages and one RSF. He was counted out only twice.

And I don't see why a loss wouldn't count against his power. He hit Maskaev in those 8 rounds didn't he?

[evndrbsn]

And that Rahman couldn't beat him DOES count.

It counts against him as a FIGHTER but not against his POWER.

Let me use my example again. Max Schmeling at 35-3-3 got KO'd by Gipsy Daniels in one round. Daniels had 33 KOs in 140 fights. He scored KOs in a little over 20% of his fights and he was able to KO Max Schemling in one round. That takes nothing away from Schmeling's punching ability! It is a knock on him as a fighter and definitely against his chin, but not his power.

At least the people Rahman, Maskaev, Ruiz, and Berbick got KO'd by actually were punchers.

If you actually knew anything of that fight, you would know Schmeling got caught by a flush shot and couldn't beat the count. Nothing more, nothing less. If anybody gets caught with a flush shot they didn't see coming, no matter how strong your chin is or the force behind it, your going out. Besides the Louis rematch, he was never kayoed again, only cut stoppages and one RSF. He was counted out only twice.

And I don't see why a loss wouldn't count against his power. He hit Maskaev in those 8 rounds didn't he?

Jimmy Young hit a lot of people with flush shots, but did not KO IBHOF quality guys with them.

Yes, he hit Maskaev in those 8 rounds. He obviously did not land the kind of shot that was necessary to knock out Maskaev in those rounds, though. Just like Mike Tyson was unable to KO Bonecrusher Smith in twelve rounds or James Tillis in 10 rounds or Buster Douglas in 10 rounds. He also did not KO Razor Ruddock in their second fight throughout twelve rounds, although Ruddock had somewhat of an unstable chin. He landed bombs on Smith, Tillis, Douglas, and Ruddock, but he didn't land the right shot. Doesn't detract from his power at all. Mike Tyson conceivably punched harder than Rahman and McCall, both of whom KO'd Lewis. Tyson was not able to knock Lewis out. It just means he did not land the right shot!

No great fighter has a 100% KO percentage! Even Joe Louis went the distance sixteen times! That means somewhere along the lines, Louis did not land a particularly debilitating shot worthy enough of separating his foes from their consciousness.

[dempseyfire]

max baer hit harder than both rahman and mccail!!!!

Based on what exactly?

rocky maarciano hit harder than both of them as well!!!

The Rock hit very hard for a guy his size. A straight right hand from both Rahman and Mccall would have shut Walcotts lights out as well.
ouis didnt need to get inside, he would simply counter foremans loops with the hardest fastest combinations foreman has ever seen.

LOOK WHAT RON LYLE DID TO FOREMAN whose a poor mans joe louis. boxer-punchers like liston and louis will knock out foreman.

With his reach and short punching would have to get inside to hurt Foreman. And so what if Lyle dropped and hurt Foreman? Lyle was a big strong powerful heavyweight with an outstanding chin. Foreman did win remember?

joe louis i might add was very strong! 6'2 207lb only 1" and 10lbs less thaan foreman

Louis at his peak fought at around 202 to 203. Foreman fought at around 220 for most of his peak years. 18 pounds of extra muscle is alot. Also add the fact that Foreman always did massive amount of power training with weights.

foreman himself would saay louis would knock him out, and foreman is not being humble when he says it!!

So what? Ali said Tyson would have knocked him out in his prime. I dont agree with either of them.

Rahman would've never landed a clean punch on Walcott

Foreman in the 70s never used weights.

Speaking of Louis, look at Frazier-Quarry 11. Louis is the referee. Quarry and Joe are two of the smaller top HWs of the 70s but they both kicked the butts of much larger heavyweights.

Louis dwarfs both of them, he's several inches taller and just has a bigger frame. Louis was no small heavyweight.

Quarry schooled a prime Lyle but Lyle is too big for Louis. The Brown Bomber was bigger and a much bigger puncher then Irish Jerry.

Foreman had the completly wrong style for Louis. 18 lbs? That's nothing in the HW division. Hell Abe Simon was 250 lbs of muscle (not as dangerous as George but big, strong, and durable) and Louis sent him flying all across the ring.

[theone]

theone, u saw what lyle did to george, imagine what a faster, hard hitter, much more deadly puncher and boxer would do to him like joe louis. and i hope ur not impyling lyle was a better puncher than joe louis

No, just that just because Lyle gave Foreman problems doesnt automatically mean Louis would have beat Foreman. Lyle was big 6'3 and a half and 220pds musclular pounds. He had an 80 inch reach and fought Foreman very aggresivly. It was Foremans first real fight in a year and he was rusty and a little off since the Ali fight. Cosell and Norton even noted this very early in the fight, stating Foreman did not appear the same.

Rahman would've never landed a clean punch on Walcott

Alot of lesser fighter than Rahman did, and beat him at that.

Speaking of Louis, look at Frazier-Quarry 11. Louis is the referee. Quarry and Joe are two of the smaller top HWs of the 70s but they both kicked the butts of much larger heavyweights.

I never said Louis couldnt kick the butts of bigger heavyweights. Just not the ones i noted earlier.

Louis dwarfs both of them, he's several inches taller and just has a bigger frame. Louis was no small heavyweight.

In his prime Louis would not have dwarfed either of them. He was very close in weight and height to Quarry.

Quarry schooled a prime Lyle but Lyle is too big for Louis. The Brown Bomber was bigger and a much bigger puncher then Irish Jerry.

Once again, I never said Lyle could beat Louis. I just explained that Lyle giving Foreman a fight doesnt automatically mean Louis could beat prime foreman.

Foreman had the completly wrong style for Louis. 18 lbs? That's nothing in the HW division. Hell Abe Simon was 250 lbs of muscle (not as dangerous as George but big, strong, and durable) and Louis sent him flying all across the ring.

Abe Simon was a heavybag with legs. bad example.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Alot of lesser fighter than Rahman did, and beat him at that.

like who?? and i mean in walcotts prime not the malnourished, no traaining, take fights on 3 days notice far from prime walcott. only guys u can say are louis and marciano who are both top 5 greatest heavyweight punchers all time, louis being # 1


- charles did beat him twice and knock him down once, but charless wa 100x better sharp shooter than rahman

[dempseyfire]

theone, u saw what lyle did to george, imagine what a faster, hard hitter, much more deadly puncher and boxer would do to him like joe louis. and i hope ur not impyling lyle was a better puncher than joe louis

No, just that just because Lyle gave Foreman problems doesnt automatically mean Louis would have beat Foreman. Lyle was big 6'3 and a half and 220pds musclular pounds. He had an 80 inch reach and fought Foreman very aggresivly. It was Foremans first real fight in a year and he was rusty and a little off since the Ali fight. Cosell and Norton even noted this very early in the fight, stating Foreman did not appear the same.

Rahman would've never landed a clean punch on Walcott

Alot of lesser fighter than Rahman did, and beat him at that.

Speaking of Louis, look at Frazier-Quarry 11. Louis is the referee. Quarry and Joe are two of the smaller top HWs of the 70s but they both kicked the butts of much larger heavyweights.

I never said Louis couldnt kick the butts of bigger heavyweights. Just not the ones i noted earlier.

Louis dwarfs both of them, he's several inches taller and just has a bigger frame. Louis was no small heavyweight.

In his prime Louis would not have dwarfed either of them. He was very close in weight and height to Quarry.

Quarry schooled a prime Lyle but Lyle is too big for Louis. The Brown Bomber was bigger and a much bigger puncher then Irish Jerry.

Once again, I never said Lyle could beat Louis. I just explained that Lyle giving Foreman a fight doesnt automatically mean Louis could beat prime foreman.

Foreman had the completly wrong style for Louis. 18 lbs? That's nothing in the HW division. Hell Abe Simon was 250 lbs of muscle (not as dangerous as George but big, strong, and durable) and Louis sent him flying all across the ring.

Abe Simon was a heavybag with legs. bad example.

Look at the friggin' film, I don't know what else to tell you. Bone structure and density has a helluva lot more to do with size then height and weight. If Antonio Tarver, a lanky 6'2 light HW, gained 20 lbs and fought at 210, is he now the same size as Liston, who in his prime was 6'1, 210? No, Liston would make him look like a little boy (and you say Louis in his prime? Don't you know people actually shrink with age as your bones detoriate? if anything he had been bigger when he fought . . .) Your saying Foreman would be too big and strong, but mentioning the fact that Abe Simon, a man bigger and on the same level strength-wise, is a bad example. Are you suggesting Foreman would outbox Louis and win a decision? Foreman would slug it out with a shorter, much faster two-fisted puncher who was ten times as accurate as he ever was . . .so how does George win this again?

Who are these much lesser fighters then Jersey Joe you you probably know next to nothing about? Charles, Ray, Tiger Joe Fox? These guys forgot more about boxing then Hasim Rahman ever knew . . . The only guy who's as slow as Rahman who beat Walcott was Simon and Walcott was not properly trained nor prepared for that fight.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

not to mention a prime walcott would have never lossed to ettore, fox, or simon. he was whipping simon in faact until he ran out of gas cause he took the fight on 3 days notice and had no stamina.

Your saying Foreman would be too big and strong, but mentioning the fact that Abe Simon, a man bigger and on the same level strength-wise, is a bad example. Are you suggesting Foreman would outbox Louis and win a decision? Foreman would slug it out with a shorter, much faster two-fisted puncher who was ten times as accurate as he ever was . . .so how does George win this again?

[chance]

Louis walks through Foreman and Frazier and KO'S both. Tyson is interesting but if it went past about the fourth round I think Louis probobly stops him. Louis outboxes Lewis, maybe even puts him down given Lewis's questionable chin, but Lewis has enough size to make it interesting. Louis vs. Dempsey has the makings of a great fight, I lean towarsd Jack, but its up in the air. Liston has a pretty good chance at Joe too

[Cojimar 1945]

I don't think the size difference between Louis opponnents and those of Lewis can be ignored. It seems logical that larger heavyweights could hit harder than much smaller ones.